Out With Drop Tables! In With Token System.

[arche]

So you complain about people not having patience.... and then admit you wouldn't have the patience to simply grind for something.

 

and you can also potential get the same part over and over and over, which leads to burnout faster then anything when you feel you are not making progress toward anything and you're just spinning your wheels.

 

 

While yes the Costs would be up to DE -who hopefully would not go overboard on the price- You'd still have a clear feeling of progression as opposed too I'm gonna burn a weeks worth of keys and "Hope" I get what I want.

Well, i said that it would be boring, but that does not means that i dont have the patience to grind. I have to agree on duplicatr items. But it can be solved with other methods.

[WordsAreEnough]

Well, i said that it would be boring, but that does not means that i dont have the patience to grind. I have to agree on duplicatr items. But it can be solved with other methods.

 

What other methods are you thinking of? I'm personally trying to figure out how repeat drops and lack of luck getting the item you actually want can be handled and I'm not seeing anything that makes sense.

 

Honestly I dislike the idea of a token system it seems redundant.(if one is implemented I might just have to do some chargebacks I really dislike tokens hence my post in this thread.)

 

Having multiple loot tables based on mission and tier should make it easier. Instead of one list with 100 items you have 10 lists with 10 items all have an equal chance to drop that is how I have modded drop tables in some old videogames I played. i.e summoner from 2000 I could edit the vpp files.

 

there were separate files for different types of bad guys ex an archer and a warrior.

they had different loot tables.

just add that kind of system for the void.

 

for example: void exterminate only gives a chance for weapon bps and void defense gives warframe bps

 

In that same vein you could simply offer more types of tokens than just a singular token. The real problem lies in that even if a certain Void mission only drops ten different items, if something only drops 3% of the time you can still lose out. Already Warframe has different loot tables spread across different bosses and enemy types and each void mission has a different loot table than the others with about 10 (8 to 13) or so items in each. So, your implementation idea IS in effect and yet doesn't really work.

 

You mention a distaste for tokens, but what is about a token system that seems to make you want to do something as drastic as a chargeback? You don't explain why it's so bad.

[KingTaro]

The problem I see with this is that some void types would become completely useless.

Like, why waste an hour on defence, when you could do 30 capture runs in that same time.

 

We could scale the tokens acquired from different mission types accordingly, like the defence missions giving 10 times more tokens, but that still wouldn't change the fact that some mission types would loose its popularity.

And this is probably one of the main reasons why we don't have a token system.

 

 

However, having different types of tokens for each void type might be the solution.

 

For example, for Mag Prime you'd need the "Corpus Tokens" that can only be acquired in Mobile Defence void, while Frost Prime would require "Tenno Tokens" only obtainable in Survival void, etc...

 

 

Anyway, as long as the cost is not 9000 tokens per piece while you only get 3 tokens per run, I'm all for the token system!

[Cpl_Facehugger]

way more grind in the end, nty.

Yes, but it's more directed grind. And if we still let people take the mystery option and roll for loot, that satisfies both parties. The guys who like the RNG can roll for loot, while the guys who don't can take a token.

 

Having multiple loot tables based on mission and tier should make it easier. Instead of one list with 100 items you have 10 lists with 10 items all have an equal chance to drop that is how I have modded drop tables in some old videogames I played. i.e summoner from 2000 I could edit the vpp files.

The problem with this is table dilution. We've already seen it with the recent Mag Prime and Boar debacle. As you add more gear to the drop tables, the chance of getting something you want diminishes. Now imagine it in the future when there's a half dozen prime warframes (each with 3 pieces + BPs), twenty prime weapons (each with anywhere from 2-4 pieces + BP,) etc etc.

The current system is not sustainable in the long term.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Judgebanks]

They would have to do it in a way that buying Void key packs wont become obsolete.

Buying Void key packs is already obsolete.

[Genuinetheo]

What you're suggesting is not very beneficial to the longevity of Warframe. Blood, sweat, and tears are the meat of Warframe. If you can't put that into a game then you need to find something a little more casual like FarmVille.

 

I'd rather my accomplishments be kept alive, not beaten to death by some token system that grants everyone's wishes. How are you going to feel the sense of achievement when everyone is a winner? Permitted that everyone will eventually achieve great things in Warframe, that doesn't mean we all need instant access to them. 

 

Achievements are the core of this wonderful game. Going against all odds, doing the impossible and accomplishing greatness. I for one will not feel any desire for accomplishment by farming tokens to ensure my goals are met. That is not what Warframe has been, and it should never be about. 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

How are you going to feel the sense of achievement when everyone is a winner?

The same way we feel that sense of achievement when everyone can just run down to their local dojo physics lab and pick up flux rifle BPs.

[Bkwrm]

+1 this thread.  Something needs to be done other than the current system.  Be it tokens or distributing specific drops better (like bosses in mmos), there's lots of good ideas here.  I've tried getting friends into this game and I just don't see them sticking with it after they hit the rng grind wall (they're casual gamers and will just go play something else).

 

Oh and just split the tokens up.  Void Assassinate tokens, Void Defense tokens, Planetary Defense Tokens, Boss tokens, ect.  Let you spend boss tokens on rare crafting resources as well.  This would keep people running everything as long as there's something decent to shoot for.  Marketplace void keys would still be purchased if you didn't feel like grinding planetary defense waves to get the tokens needed to buy void keys.  Basically you'd just be replacing 50 runs of no result frustration with a 50 run finish line.

 

I really like this game, they've done an amazing job.  But loot rng.... is pants on head $&*&*#(%&.

[Genuinetheo]

The same way we feel that sense of achievement when everyone can just run down to their local dojo physics lab and pick up flux rifle BPs.

 

I am not sure that you understand completely. We are talking about the Void blueprints. 

[WordsAreEnough]

What you're suggesting is not very beneficial to the longevity of Warframe. Blood, sweat, and tears are the meat of Warframe. If you can't put that into a game then you need to find something a little more casual like FarmVille.

 

I'd rather my accomplishments be kept alive, not beaten to death by some token system that grants everyone's wishes. How are you going to feel the sense of achievement when everyone is a winner? Permitted that everyone will eventually achieve great things in Warframe, that doesn't mean we all need instant access to them. 

 

Achievements are the core of this wonderful game. Going against all odds, doing the impossible and accomplishing greatness. I for one will not feel any desire for accomplishment by farming tokens to ensure my goals are met. That is not what Warframe has been, and it should never be about. 

 

There's a major disconnect here. The current system doesn't reward achievement or meeting a goal. It hands out rewards based solely on luck with no regard for blood sweat and tears put in by others. I've been a beneficiary of some of that luck. It took me only 6 void runs to obtain all the Frost Prime blueprints and build him. Which doesn't make that feel like an achievement or accomplishment at all. I was just luckier than the next guy.

 

Blood, sweat and tears would go into collecting tokens no matter who you are. You would be putting in the effort to get all the tokens you need for an item. Ensuring that you put in just as much effort as the next guy. Right now, some people slave away and are never rewarded while other are handed out goods in just a try or two.

 

If you're really for achievement and effort put into obtaining gear in the game, tokens are a much closer mark than RNG.

[Painmak3r]

It has to be done, it's the only way to keep the void viable and keep adding content to it.

 

It'd also make even a bad run feel more rewarding because you're still getting closer to what you want.

 

As long as the rates are kept fair it would make everybody happy.

[Genuinetheo]

There's a major disconnect here. The current system doesn't reward achievement or meeting a goal. It hands out rewards based solely on luck with no regard for blood sweat and tears put in by others. I've been a beneficiary of some of that luck. It took me only 6 void runs to obtain all the Frost Prime blueprints and build him. Which doesn't make that feel like an achievement or accomplishment at all. I was just luckier than the next guy.

 

Blood, sweat and tears would go into collecting tokens no matter who you are. You would be putting in the effort to get all the tokens you need for an item. Ensuring that you put in just as much effort as the next guy. Right now, some people slave away and are never rewarded while other are handed out goods in just a try or two.

 

If you're really for achievement and effort put into obtaining gear in the game, tokens are a much closer mark than RNG.

 

Not by far. You might as well be handing yourself a free Get ouf of Jail card. Let's give some free handouts, too, while we're at it. Free formas for everyone. Because the token system will do just that. Then you'll get sick of seeing everyone with the same prime weapons, same prime warframes, same prime everything and then you'll be crying "Give us more content!" in which you only farm even more for precious tokens, saving up for the day you can buy it as soon as it is released. 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I am not sure that you understand completely. We are talking about the Void blueprints.

Yes, but you're talking about a sense of achievement, right? Clan weapons are both more powerful and easier to acquire than primes, yet there's still a sense of achievement in crafting that flux rifle or acrid; I'd argue that they'd be easier to acquire than primes even with the token system.

[Genuinetheo]

Yes, but you're talking about a sense of achievement, right? Clan weapons are both more powerful and easier to acquire than primes, yet there's still a sense of achievement in crafting that flux rifle or acrid; I'd argue that they'd be easier to acquire than primes even with the token system.

 

It's not about power, power is not the question here. We have all noticed, up to this point, that Primes are just a branch of progression not a symbol of power. 

[WordsAreEnough]

Not by far. You might as well be handing yourself a free Get ouf of Jail card. Let's give some free handouts, too, while we're at it. Free formas for everyone. Because the token system will do just that. Then you'll get sick of seeing everyone with the same prime weapons, same prime warframes, same prime everything and then you'll be crying "Give us more content!" in which you only farm even more for precious tokens, saving up for the day you can buy it as soon as it is released. 

 

And I've said, just in that post you quoted, the Void already gives free handouts to some while never rewarding others. Plenty of games have handled token systems in a way that prevents pre-farming, if that's your concern. But if it really is in effort put into obtaining weapons you should be against RNG as much as possible since it changes that effort for each individual. Some people get what they need in the smallest amount of runs possible. It happens. Why is that better than a token system?

 

You don't think that someone who devoted their time to the game playing and farming (hell, even if it's in advance) deserves that item? Why does he deserve it less than the guy who put in barely any time and was just lucky?

[Bkwrm]

How is running the same mission 50 times free?  Versus the person that took only 6 runs to get it.  Or feel like less of an achievement?  All I'm getting here is the "I want to be the special butterfly with stuff others don't have" feeling from your posts.  Not attacking you, just that mindset is foreign to me, never understood people like that in mmos either.  Than instead of everyone wearing the same thing, it would be what you choose to wear.  Similar to why people choose the giant axe over the giant hammer.

[Genuinetheo]

And I've said, just in that post you quoted, the Void already gives free handouts to some while never rewarding others. Plenty of games have handled token systems in a way that prevents pre-farming, if that's your concern. But if it really is in effort put into obtaining weapons you should be against RNG as much as possible since it changes that effort for each individual. Some people get what they need in the smallest amount of runs possible. It happens. Why is that better than a token system?

 

You don't think that someone who devoted their time to the game playing and farming (hell, even if it's in advance) deserves that item? Why does he deserve it less than the guy who put in barely any time and was just lucky?

 

We all deserve achievements. We all desire them, too. That doesn't mean we will always get what we want right when we want it. Playing the equality card is overrated. Where's the element of surprise when everything is predetermined? Equality is morbid, I'd rather people be different because they can be rather than everyone be the same because they want to be.

 

@Bkwrm; Honestly, I have very little to none of the Primes. Warframes and weapons alike. Am I angry at DE for it? No, not in the slightest. I knew what I was going into when I first played the Void, reading up on it before I took those first steps. Did I try and revolt so I could change their ways? No, I was keen to the random number generators and knew what I was up against. 

 

I am not saying that there aren't people deserving of great things in this game, but you can't leave one thing alone without wanting it to be available to everybody (especially if that one thing is designed to be scarce). This whole token system will throw rarity out of the water: nothing is saved. We might as well call the Token Shop the cookie jar. 

[plznohurtme]

The problem with this is table dilution. We've already seen it with the recent Mag Prime and Boar debacle. As you add more gear to the drop tables, the chance of getting something you want diminishes. Now imagine it in the future when there's a half dozen prime warframes (each with 3 pieces + BPs), twenty prime weapons (each with anywhere from 2-4 pieces + BP,) etc etc.

The current system is not sustainable in the long term.

You are flat out wrong and it doesn't take a genius to see why. ARPGs have had much larger loot tables and are perfectly sustainable... it's a matter of getting good balance out of the content that you have. There are relative to the number of missions barely any void rewards and if you take a look at the 10.1.0 loot tables DE appears to have done the only thing they should do which is tighten up the loot tables.

Example:

9.6 t2 void rewards:

Latron Prime Barrel

Latron Prime Receiver

Latron Prime Stock

Reaper Prime Blade

Reaper Prime Handle

Frost Prime Blueprint

Frost Prime Chassis Blueprint

Frost Prime Helmet Blueprint

Frost Prime Systems Blueprint

Latron Prime Blueprint

Reaper Prime Blueprint

Forma Blueprint

Forma

10.1.0 t2 void rewards:

Dakra Prime Handle

Frost Prime Helmet Blueprint

Frost Prime Chassis Blueprint

Forma Blueprint

Frost Prime Systems Blueprint

Dakra Prime Blade

Right now there is a huge number of available missions in the game that currently don't have any rewards at all and the ones that do don't have different end mission rewards depending on location. There is a ton of room to fix what is currently in game, but for whatever reason DE has been dragging their feet.

A token system for me would break the feel of the game completely and quite frankly I would no longer play the game. I said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: It's a bandaid fix for a problem that is easily remedied by making changes to the loot distribution.

an aside: I'd rather see them put in a system that allowed you to turn in duplicates for another piece (predominantly in the case of warframes). For example the person in an above post who claimed to have done 200+ runs just to finish Rhino if you could turn in (just throwing out an arbitrary number) 20 Rhino Systems to get the Rhino Helmet etc would essentially allow for RNG to stay but have a cap on how out of control it could get.

Edited September 21, 2013 by plznohurtme

[WordsAreEnough]

We all deserve achievements. We all desire them, too. That doesn't mean we will always get what we want right when we want it. Playing the equality card is overrated. Where's the element of surprise when everything is predetermined? Equality is morbid, I'd rather people be different because they can be rather than everyone be the same because they want to be.

 

@Bkwrm; Honestly, I have very little to none of the Primes. Warframes and weapons alike. Am I angry at DE for it? No, not in the slightest. I knew what I was going into when I first played the Void, reading up on it before I took those first steps. Did I try and revolt so I could change their ways? No, I was keen to the random number generators and knew what I was up against. 

 

I am not saying that there aren't people deserving of great things in this game, but you can't leave one thing alone without wanting it to be available to everybody (especially if that one thing is designed to be scarce). This whole token system will throw rarity out of the water: nothing is saved. We might as well call the Token Shop the cookie jar. 

 

I get the impression that you aren't taking into account the content of our posts. Namely because we've already explained how what you keep saying you want, even in this most recent post, is more readily achieved with a token system. People will be different because they can, because they will have options on what to use and play with. That is exactly what Bkwrm said and you act as if it's somehow different when you say it.

 

What purpose does it serve to prevent others from obtaining items that they want? Especially if it helps them to be more effective when playing with you?

 

 

You are flat out wrong and it doesn't take a genius to see why. ARPGs have had much larger loot tables and are perfectly sustainable... it's a matter of getting good balance out of the content that you have. There are relative to the number of missions barely any void rewards and if you take a look at the 10.1.0 loot tables DE appears to have done the only thing they should do which is tighten up the loot tables.

 

[drop tables]

Right now there is a huge number of available missions in the game that currently don't have any rewards at all and the ones that do don't have different end mission rewards depending on location. There is a ton of room to fix what is currently in game, but for whatever reason DE has been dragging their feet.

A token system for me would break the feel of the game completely and quite frankly I would no longer play the game. I said it before in this thread and I'll say it again: It's a bandaid fix for a problem that is easily remedied by making changes to the loot distribution.

 

Why would a token system break the feel of the game? How can you easily remedy the issues by making changes to loot distribution? These are important points that you aren't discussing.

[ForumSmurf]

token system for everything is a bad idea. Take league of legends for example. It takes a week of solid play to farm one character. THats a token system where everything is worth the work you put in. 

[plznohurtme]

Why would a token system break the feel of the game?

Maybe because I don't want to play a game where I get pieces of whatever gear I want every time I play a mission? It ruins all of the enjoyment of going to different places to accomplish different things and puts it into a grind of "what's the most effective way to get the pieces".

How can you easily remedy the issues by making changes to loot distribution? These are important points that you aren't discussing.

Did you actually read my post? Do you lack understanding of simple logic? I'm confused as to how you didn't get that I put in an example of DE already tightening up the loot tables to fix loot distribution. It's a VERY simple concept that apparently people aren't getting: If you have fewer reward choices at the end of any given mission that means you have a higher chance of getting whatever the reward is. They have had highly diluted loot tables causing the problems, but it's not due to the amount of loot rather the amount of loot they've been trying to jam into each mission that has rewards.

[Genuinetheo]

I get the impression that you aren't taking into account the content of our posts. Namely because we've already explained how what you keep saying you want, even in this most recent post, is more readily achieved with a token system. People will be different because they can, because they will have options on what to use and play with. That is exactly what Bkwrm said and you act as if it's somehow different when you say it.

 

What purpose does it serve to prevent others from obtaining items that they want? Especially if it helps them to be more effective when playing with you?

 

 

 

Why would a token system break the feel of the game? How can you easily remedy the issues by making changes to loot distribution? These are important points that you aren't discussing.

 

They are not the same thing, nor are they achieved the same way. If we were to downgrade to a token system the Void will no longer be "What will I get this time?" it will be "What will I get this time?" The element of surprise is no longer there, where the achievement becomes collecting tokens for purchase instead of playing for uncertainty. Think of it as playing the slots: when you lose the slots so many times, you accumulate loser points. When you have so many loser points, you are allowed to choose whatever slot you want to land on.  That's not an achievement to me, that is an easy gambit.

[WordsAreEnough]

Maybe because I don't want to play a game where I get pieces of whatever gear I want every time I play a mission? It ruins all of the enjoyment of going to different places to accomplish different things and puts it into a grind of "what's the most effective way to get the pieces".

Did you actually read my post? Do you lack understanding of simple logic? I'm confused as to how you didn't get that I put in an example of DE already tightening up the loot tables to fix loot distribution. It's a VERY simple concept that apparently people aren't getting: If you have fewer reward choices at the end of any given mission that means you have a higher chance of getting whatever the reward is. They have had highly diluted loot tables causing the problems, but it's not due to the amount of loot rather the amount of loot they've been trying to jam into each mission that has rewards.

 

It seems rather rude of you to accuse others of not reading posts when you act as though your own concerns haven't been already discussed with methods to alleviate them already mentioned. Different missions rewarding different tokens and the fact that we don't expect one run of a mission to grant enough tokens to pick up something. Both have been mentioned several times in this post already.

 

For your second point. Less items in the list still doesn't affect drop rates. One item can be incredibly common with the rest being incredibly rare. Less isn't always more. Not to mention that even if something has an 80% drop rate there will still be someone out there who never sees it.

 

 

They are not the same thing, nor are they achieved the same way. If we were to downgrade to a token system the Void will no longer be "What will I get this time?" it will be "What will I get this time?" The element of surprise is no longer there, where the achievement becomes collecting tokens for purchase instead of playing for uncertainty. Think of it as playing the slots: when you lose the slots so many times, you accumulate loser points. When you have so many loser points, you are allowed to choose whatever slot you want to land on.  That's not an achievement to me, that is an easy gambit.

 

So you want the addiction that gambling breeds instead of the challenge and achievement of a game. You would prefer having no control over whether or not your hard work is rewarded. You want to put in time and effort and know that it's entirely possible, even likely, that you aren't going to get what you're after. You want to be lucky, you don't want to achieve. Achievements involve effort and skill, not simply hitting the right number without any control over how that happened.

[Chaosdreamer]

Depends how taken system work , if you get one every year like orokin cell and you need 10 of them is going to be HELL ,and in fact even if get frustated with not getting what i want , i do like to wait to see what i m getting...

[shadowkinz]

Just wanna point out that if you want this, be ready to also have a plat for token exchange system. I don't think it would be bad but i can see a lot of people squirming over it lol

Lemme also add that i think i support a token system, even if it came with a system to switch plat for tokens. It would be a tough balance tho. Items would be too easily attainable and if the plat tokens were there nobody would need them, then they would balance it by making tokens super grindy.

I just honestly hate rng and wouldn't mind having actual goals instead of gambles

Edited September 21, 2013 by shadowkinz