Fixing Limbo, A Comprehensive List of Suggestions.

[Viyzon]

Greetings people, before I begin I just want to say I have nothing against Limbo/Limbo Prime (referred here on in as just Limbo) as I do use frequently make use of him when solo'ing especially the prime variant in Ceres as he lets me fulfill my desire for a Warhammer Inquisitor/Witch hunter vibe in a semi Warhammer 40k ish setting.

However this being said, I must state that Limbo is simply wrong in many respects both as a Warframe and as a part of the general game design/feel, now let us have a look at some of the most common issues the design brings to the video game that we all adore and spend the majority of our lives on (XD):

1. Limbo is one of the few if not the only Warframe that forces other players to adapt to the presence of said Warframe in any given situation, this is a far cry from most other Warframes that compliment your choice of Warframe with their own passives/abilities that can affect you in a positive manner, the effect of which is that Limbo stands out like a sore thumb, even Vauban who's CC abilities are mostly regarded as useless now that Warfame is all about dishing damage on a DPS tick can still be useful by momentarily stopping enemies dead in their tracks without stopping other players from doing what they do.

2. Expanding from point 1 above Limbo's 4th is simply far too powerful and annoying, Cataclysm not only promotes a lazy, sit back and don't contribute/leech mentality but it can be painfully annoying as when your inside said Cataclysm bubble you are unable to break containers and open lockers, now before you state just go into operator mode, keep in mind people who have yet to do the Second Dream quest and the very fact that the game simply does not tell you at any give time that going into operator mode will allow you to open said lockers and to break containers.

3. In further expansion of the first point Banishment/Limbo dodge/roll is a real problem, sprinting to an objective and having a Limbo player in front of you can get you the same effect of banishment and the inability to hurt enemies or do anything else can simply be annoying as it can be, now the argument here is simply to roll/dodge out of it but I ask you where in the game does it tell you a roll/dodge will cancel a Limbo's alternative plain of existence gimmick? Why should we who min/max our Warfames down to a precision science level of calibrations be forced to stop and concentrate if we are banished/check to see if a Limbo player is on the team? Warframe is a mindless fun game about taking on evil merchants/souped up killing machines in the thousands in order to protect the last vestiges of humanity, its meant to be fast, senseless and a pure power trip.

4. The prime variant is simply far too low in its mastery rank requirements as new people should experience other Warframes first for the sake of retaining said people. Now you can say this is mostly a personal choice thing and that what frame people use/main is up to them but I ask you given the inherent flaws in the design for this Warframe how many people will continue to play the game if they come across people with a significant enough set of hours in Warframe or veterans who have simply had enough of Limbo and its flaws, and simply without any explaining why Limbo should not be brought into a public squad just rant at the new people not bringing Limbo into any future squad? Warframe as a video game depends on player retention, this is why Limbo Prime must be brought into line with most other prime Warframe's mastery rank requirements.

So given the above how does DE fix Limbo? The answer is not to nerf Limbo as he is a great warframe negotiated before hand with friends and in higher level content where his abilities are welcomed more then scorned at, below I list a few points that will remove the toxicity and problems surrounding Limbo:

1. Limbo's banishment/roll into the rift should at the very minimum be unable to target players passively and cost far more energy actively, using his first ability, this is pretty simple and straightforward as Limbo already has energy regeneration thus costing much more energy to banish another player should be no problem for him (something that I have requested in order to escape a tough crowd/when on low health) and this will also stop the majority of people who go around banishing other players just for the troll factor. DE can reason this away as given that Warframes are incredibly powerful bio organic machines of war that it naturally takes more to banish another Warframe then enemy NPCs.

2. Limbo's 4th, aka Cataclysm bubble should not stop people from being able to open lockers and to break containers while in their Warfames and while inside the bubble thus no more loot drama, no more toxicity.

3. Increase Limbo Prime's Mastery Rank requirement from 4 to 8, this will force new people to experience more of the varied content of the game before they get their hands on Limbo and prevent them from adopting the set bubble and be passive mentality that I and many other Warframe players complain in regards to leeching/afk Limbo mains. In addition add a small but still costly amount of Cryotic to the regular Limbo's build requirements which makes said Warframe easy for experienced players to construct somewhat out of reach for new/carried players and thus preventing them from also adopting the set bubble and be passive/afk mentality.

4. Have it so that Limbo's 4th increases in strength the more kills said Limbo does in a sort of meter resource manner that is present in Gauss, casting his 4th ability should reset the meter and should require kills in order to strengthen the next bubble that is cast. A complete under strength bubble (0 new kills from the Limbo player) should still slow enemies by 25% meaning that Limbo's 4th is still useful no matter how strong said bubble is but at the same time encouraging Limbo players to be more active in racking up a kill count (and stopping them from being AFK/leeching) this would also making casting said bubble a more strategic decision then an automatic cast and forget ability.

I really hope DE considers the above and I also would like to thank everybody in advance for taking the time to read this and as I said I have nothing against Limbo and do frequently use him in a solo manner however his abilities really need to be made more squad friendly and should not force others to adapt to the existence of a Limbo on the field but rather his abilities should compliment and strengthen other player's existing play styles and routines.

[IllumiNoEye_Gaming]

The First and Second ones are fine.

The 3rd one, I wouldn't add the "costly cryotic amount", but I wouldn't mind raising Limbo Prime's MR from 4 to 6 or 8.

The 4th suggestion is not good. Do you realise that the bubble isn't what stops enemies. It's his 2nd, stasis. The whole gimmick is that it stops enemies. You said it yourself
 

18 minutes ago, Viyzon said:

senseless and a pure power trip.

So I don't see why you can't be allowed to stop enemies. If Vauban can stop them, and Nova can as well (to some extent) I don't see why Limbo can't. One of the main draws of Limbo is the Cataclysm-Stasis combo which allows you to easily complete missions. If Warframe is about being OP as #*!%, not allowing a warframe to do one of its best established functions is dumb. If not for Cataclysm-Stasis, lots and lots of people would stop playing Limbo, which is bad.

[HoboKnoght]

I do believe the mastery rank requirement can be an essential key to atleast mitigating some of the grievences that goes towards limbo. In addition to that a change to the 3rd ability of it, which is vastly unused and undesired, even for a limbo mainer like me. Maybe to change it from surge to banish immunity to fellow frames (ability to hit containers or shoot outside similar to frost bubble). 
I agree that one of the gimmicks of limbo is to "halt" the battlefield, which does come in handy in certain situations and unnecessary in most but you can always change your playstyle with limbo. 
From experience, i had times when i had to switch from cata focus to banish-step dps, which requires a high apm count and not everyone's cup of tea but its one of the ways to do it.

[Syasob]

Limbo is not broken. Ever met Valkyre riplining teammates around the map? Or a Loki trollporting you to the abyss? Guess you got the point.

1 hour ago, Viyzon said:

Increase Limbo Prime's Mastery Rank requirement from 4 to 8, this will force new people to experience more of the varied content of the game before they get their hands on Limbo and prevent them from adopting the set bubble and be passive mentality that I and many other Warframe players complain in regards to leeching/afk Limbo mains. In addition add a small but still costly amount of Cryotic to the regular Limbo's build requirements which makes said Warframe easy for experienced players to construct somewhat out of reach for new/carried players and thus preventing them from also adopting the set bubble and be passive/afk mentality.

MR or resource requirements do nothing to prevent troll play. Most of the low ranks can be reasoned not to banish others and you Cataclysm only when it's needed if you tell them what they're doing wrong.

1 hour ago, Viyzon said:

Limbo's banishment/roll into the rift should at the very minimum be unable to target players passively and cost far more energy actively, using his first ability, this is pretty simple and straightforward as Limbo already has energy regeneration thus costing much more energy to banish another player should be no problem for him (something that I have requested in order to escape a tough crowd/when on low health) and this will also stop the majority of people who go around banishing other players just for the troll factor.

Yeah, right, let's banish all the mobs and make sure that players stay in the 'real' world with no way to go to the other side of the limb. *sarcastic clap*

You understand that it will make this skill much harder NOT to use for trolling others, right?

1 hour ago, Viyzon said:

Limbo's 4th, aka Cataclysm bubble should not stop people from being able to open lockers and to break containers while in their Warfames and while inside the bubble thus no more loot drama, no more toxicity.

What? Cataclysm breaks all containers inside it. And lockers... I'd suggest removing them for good from the game, there's no real reason for them to exist.

1 hour ago, Viyzon said:

Have it so that Limbo's 4th increases in strength the more kills said Limbo does in a sort of meter resource manner that is present in Gauss, casting his 4th ability should reset the meter and should require kills in order to strengthen the next bubble that is cast. A complete under strength bubble (0 new kills from the Limbo player) should still slow enemies by 25% meaning that Limbo's 4th is still useful no matter how strong said bubble is but at the same time encouraging Limbo players to be more active in racking up a kill count (and stopping them from being AFK/leeching) this would also making casting said bubble a more strategic decision then an automatic cast and forget ability.

You know that Cataclysm doesn't slow mobs inside, right? Stasis does.

[000l000]

Limbo's design only big mistake was to make him "steal" enemies and other players unable to interact with Limbo without asking first. Limbo's passive should allow every team member to enter or leave Limbo at will, cause everytime he'll make enemies stuck into Limbo other players will be screwed. THIS is leading to utter frustration and thus hatred of Limbo.

Cataclysm can be also quite frustrating cause every map needs a different Cataclysm size, and most Limbo players don't care about that. A larger cataclysm is completely worthless against Corpus for example cause nullifiers will permanently dispell it, smaller cataclysm are basically worthless against infested since they're coming for you. I'm pretty sure Cataclysm would be more tolerated if it was able to kill at higher levels cause looking for stuck into stasis enemies all around the place isn't fun at all. Limbo is missing an actual damage ability. Blast and impact damage are worthless elements and even with power strength this power is badly scaling anyway.

His third power along with his augment can give incredible buffs but once again, it's not much reliable, overcomplicated and leaves tons of enemies stuck in Limbo everywhere, which leads to even more frustration since only Limbo is able to kill them.

Limbo works fine alone but he definitely needs some tweaks to really shine in a team. I don't mind one personally unless the player really sucks but i don't think that opinion is shared among most WF players (lots of people are basically leaving when they see a Limbo around).

Edited October 4, 2019 by 000l000

[Teridax68]

I think the fundamental issue with Limbo is that his Rift mechanic is overpowered, yet balanced by being annoying: on one hand, his ability to both render objectives invincible and perma-stun enemies means he completely trivializes certain missions, and so in a manner that ignores scaling: any Defense, Mobile Defense, or Excavation mission has him lay down a Cataclysm and maintain his stun within, which means even level 9999 enemies will still be stunlocked before they can do anything to the objective. This by itself is unhealthy, as it breaks the game's intended mode of challenge (though he's not the only one), in a way that is impossible to really adjust with just number changes, because his effect is so binary. However, the flipside to this is that the two-way nature of the Rift just makes interacting with him unnecessarily annoying: playing with a Limbo on the team generally requires actively playing around him just to avoid being inconvenienced, whether it's dodge-rolling to escape a misplaced Rift toggle or Banish, or entering spoiler mode just to be able to interact with an object. This is what I feel makes Limbo an especially difficult design problem, because I don't think he can be fixed without some fundamental change to his core mechanic.

Really, to fix the above conclusively, I think there are two options:

1. Remove the limitation on allies, and allow allies to act normally and damage enemies regardless of who is and isn't in the Rift.
   • This would remove all inconvenience, at the cost of making the ability a naked invincibility toggle. To some extent, this is already the case, because the Rift doesn't block abilities and thus allows nuke frames to continue nuking unimpeded.
2. Make the effects only affect Limbo.
   • This would allow Limbo to manage the complexities of his own power set, at the cost of almost completely removing his utility and ally interaction. Considering how he has the potential to help teammates, this would be a shame.

Both of those are pretty drastic, and are likely to cause either severe balance issues on their own (i.e. option 1, which would likely merely reveal existing problems rather than generate new ones), or upset players (i.e. option 2). In the meantime, I do think the OP has some good shorter-term solutions:

1. I can fully agree with removing his passive mini-Rift drop: letting Limbo enter and exit the Rift at will is fine, but in practice the mini-Banish he leaves behind tends to be an inconvenience more than anything else, including for Limbo himself. Removing that drop would thus take away some degree of frustration, even if it would mean allies wouldn't be able to opt in to his Rift via that same method.
2. I can generally agree that players should be able to interact with the environment normally while in the Rift. Preventing object/environmental interaction on the grounds that objects in the material plane were outside the Rift may sound like nice flavor on paper, but in practice just annoys players who can't get on with their regular actions without shifting to spoiler mode.
3. I personally have no particular preferences for Limbo Prime's MR requirements, though 4 does seem a bit low.
4. While I don't necessarily think the proposed implementation is great (Cataclysm actively impedes Limbo's ability to kill, and so by design), I do very much agree with the principle of wanting to make Limbo participate more actively. In this respect, I think removing the Rift's Energy regen, making Cataclysm a persistent toggled drain, and making the drain increase rapidly and reset when Limbo kills or takes down someone could achieve a similar result.

Overall, while I don't think the OP's proposals would completely fix Limbo, as per the above, I do think they could nonetheless improve him significantly by removing a few unnecessary annoyances in an altogether annoying kit. While he's still got some pretty deep problems, he's at his best design yet, and in the current state of the game a few more QoL improvements could be just enough to make him acceptable to most.

[PsiWarp]

Limbo Revisited is designed to envelop a portion or the whole of a room within the Rift, with his Banish being conical and Cataclysm being gigantically radial. Even Rift Surge is an AoE effect.

However, if you're an ally playing with Limbo, being caught on the other side than your enemies means you're heavily restricted to Abilities and Operator mode only. The Rift is actively impeding your progress as Limbo's namesake implies.

So naturally, I think with Limbo on your team, there should be a more open access to the Rift than there currently is. Banish could leave a portal into the Rift lying around, in case you didn't get Banished by Limbo, so you can kill Riftbound enemies all the same. Rift Surge could give allies a way in, by touching a surged enemy or on kill or both. Cataclysm is already a bridge between dimensions, but I am with those who want to try dodge rolls inside the bubble allowing free toggle between Rift or Material Plane.

Adding options is better than striping away options as the Rift have done for literal years.

Edited October 1, 2019 by PsiWarp

[Rasuido]

On 2019-09-30 at 2:29 AM, Viyzon said:

3. In further expansion of the first point Banishment/Limbo dodge/roll is a real problem, sprinting to an objective and having a Limbo player in front of you can get you the same effect of banishment and the inability to hurt enemies or do anything else can simply be annoying as it can be

As a limbo player i dont want to go in and out of the rift while traversing the map.

Rift dash should only be on backflip and side dash not rolls/forward dash.

[(XBOX)yepbeeble]

I feel like this complaint was made by someone who got trolled by a Limbo, instead of someone who actually has played Limbo themselves.