Jump to content

Teridax68

PC Member
  • Posts

    3,973
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Reputation

5,654

5 Followers

Recent Profile Visitors

15,123 profile views
  1. I don't think all synergies are necessarily bad: Saryn's ability to buff her weapon damage is probably one of the least overpowered things in her kit, and Zephyr dealing additional crit damage through her tornadoes I think is similarly okay. In an ideal world where every weapon, frame, etc. had a budget for the kind of power they can have, the ability to deal additional weapon damage would be part of those frames' power budget, and other frames would compensate by doing other cool things. I also agree that mods tend to multiply existing gaps in power, which is why Riven mods I think fail as a balancing tool: some weapons would need their base damage increased by a factor of ten or even a hundred to even start competing with strong alternatives, which is why I think that, for the game to even start balancing itself, we would need to set a benchmark for the kind of damage a weapon should be expected to deal. Right now, there is none of that, which means that even though one can generally tell if a weapon is excessively weak or strong, one can't really tell how exactly it'd need to change in order to be considered acceptable. In this respect, one would just have to arbitrarily pick a weapon, decide "this is the DPS that should come out of it", and then balance all other weapons so that they're in the same general ballpark, while accounting for their own unique strengths and weaknesses. As for warframes, the problem is more complicated, because most of the issues with our frames' power stem from us being able to spam abilities without any Energy restrictions. Our abilities are designed to offer massive power at a price (so that we can't use them literally all the time in theory), and because that price can be handwaved with the right mods, arcanes, Focus tree, and so on, we end up being able to access that massive power all the time, and win fights almost automatically as a result. A lot of players have suggested making Energy costs meaningful once more, but this is actually where I'm personally kind of against that: I think it's a really good thing that we get to use abilities whenever we want to, because that gives us a lot of agency and it contributes positively to the game's flow (plus Warframe's not a resource management game), the problem is more that our abilities have a lot of power without having much gameplay. In this respect, and while it would likely require a huge amount of work, I'd be in favor of removing Energy as a limitation entirely, letting us cast abilities whenever we feel like it, and instead redesigning and rebalancing those abilities so that they make gameplay genuinely more interesting, instead of simply winning fights for us without us having to do much.
  2. Hard content can't be added to the game at the moment, because the game's balance is currently so out of whack that any content intended to be hard can be trivialized, as has happened several times before. Arbitrations, ESO, Steel Path are all attempts by DE to give us challenging content, and all are incredibly easy to get through with a strong enough build. We'd thus need to be reined in in certain key respects, and a lot of our arsenal would have to be rebalanced, so that hard content would get to actually feel difficult.
  3. I agree with this, the current state of holokey farming is still awful, and the minor change on Sisters does nothing for the people who've already done that part of the grind. It needs to be made clear that, when it comes to grinding, there are two ways of implementing progress towards a goal: Progress towards the goal is reliable, but slower than other modes of progression. Affinity-based progression is one example of this kind of progression. Progress towards the goal is unreliable, but each instance of progression is faster than alternatives. Rotation drop tables are one example of this kind of progression. Each of these individually are used to create grind loops that last a certain amount of time (and can take a long time), but are also, in theory at least, proportioned so that the player doesn't feel like they're spending too much time without making meaningful progress. The problem with holokey drops in Void Storms is that it uses both at the same time: not only is progress unreliable, but even if one were to obtain holokeys reliably, it would still be slow. This double whammy is what makes the grind feel so bad still, and if that is to change, then either holokeys need to drop reliably from Void Storms, or what drops should be enough to progress significantly towards a Tenet weapon. The fact that one can currently grind for hours without making any real progress towards a single weapon is nuts.
  4. I can agree much more with this. While some of our tools are definitely far too strong, a huge part of that excess power also comes from secondary systems such as our modding, such that nerfing weapons and frames directly wouldn't always be the most effective solution (though it does still need to happen in some cases). Furthermore, while some options are for sure overpowered, there's also a vast number of frames and weapons who underperform or just aren't as fun as they could be, and so who could certainly use buffs or power-neutral reworks. Ideally, all of this should be done through comprehensive, system-wide reworks, so that DE doesn't feel as much pressure to implement knee-jerk nerfs or power creep to enemies when that does happen. I also do agree that one of the problems behind this is that there is a distinct lack of a benchmark for what constitutes adequate power among weapons of the same type: not only is it difficult to even calculate a weapon's average damage output due to how many multiplicative mods there are to factor in, there is no reference for what counts as an "okay" amount of damage output, ammo economy, other useful features, etc., which is why DE accidentally releases weapons that are grossly over the mark without properly realizing just how excessively strong they are. It's all seemingly up to whoever's in charge of the numbers, and that's not a system that's worked out well thus far. It would help to define explicitly what would count as an "average" weapon for each given class, and bring every weapon to roughly around the same power level, mods included.
  5. So obviously the OP is wrong, but I think it's worth digging a little into why. The post makes three common assumptions that are often brought up in this sort of discussion: More raw numerical power means more coolness and more fun. A game being a power fantasy means there should be no upper limit to our power. Nobody gets hurt in a co-op game when some builds are capable of cheesing the game. Point 1 is wrong because it fundamentally misunderstands where fun comes from in a video game, which isn't simply power, but the delicate balance of player agency versus the game's challenge. Even in in a "power fantasy" game, the game throws challenges at us that aren't necessarily threatening, but that still incentivize us to change things up so that our gameplay isn't completely monotonous and automatic. Warframe does not do this, because in the near-totality of situations, an overpowered build will have us cruise through missions without really having us switch up our playstyle, or even pay much attention to what we're doing. This makes gameplay less interesting, rather than more interesting, and so because we have so much excess power that a whole lot of gameplay tied to surviving, maneuvering, or even just aiming is lost. It makes doing really cool things, like blowing up entire roomfuls of enemies, mundane, and anything less than that is considered bad, which is why so many frames feel uncool just because they can't do the same ridiculous things as others. Point 2 is wrong because it fundamentally misunderstands what a power fantasy is, where it comes from, and the difference between feeling and being powerful. Power fantasies in games come from two main things: player agency, and narrative. Games with a power fantasy (which are most games) tend to make sure to have us feel like we're the deadliest thing around, which can still involve challenging gameplay, as is the case in the Halo and Doom series. Some add to that by giving the player a lot of freedom to play in exactly the way they like, and do cool things. In general, all of this is geared towards making the player feel powerful, whether or not there is a real chance of failing. None of these require the game to be so trivially easy as to cease to even be a game at all. Comparisons are often made to Dynasty Warriors, except the games have a difficulty setting where, at higher levels, the game gets really hard, and the player gets killed in only a few hits. Power fantasy does not equal trivial gameplay, and past a certain point, if we have too much power we can't even feel all that powerful, because anything that doesn't do the most overpowered thing we can do all the time ends up feeling weak. In this respect, overpoweredness can damage, rather than enhance a game's power fantasy, and so if we're designing in service of a power fantasy, there is reason to implement nerfs, if only sparingly. Finally, point 3 is wrong because overpoweredness has plenty of damaging effects in a co-op game: because Warframe is balanced around a grind loop, that grind loop ends up having to be balanced around our strongest builds, which means it becomes excessively grindy and unpleasant for anything else. We can see this with the new balancing of Kuva Liches, who have such absurd amounts of damage reduction at higher levels that one essentially needs our cheesiest options to go through them without the fight being a total slog. The Steel Path is also a massive gear check that turns most weapons into pea-shooters, and makes many frames too weak to properly compete. Extreme differences in power thus end up reducing our range of viable options, even if we choose not to partake in the cheese, and gameplay suffers for it all around. TL;DR: Excessive amounts of raw power tends to make gameplay more boring, rather than more interesting, power fantasies work best when the game isn't suffering from runaway power creep, and even if one chooses not to pick the most overpowered options, one will still suffer in a game that inevitably ends up being balanced around our strongest builds. Balance and nerfing are therefore for PvE just as well as for PvP, and while nerfs should only be applied sparingly, they still need to be applied, especially when we are so above the game's ability to challenge us that it can't hope to power creep itself to match us in the arms race.
  6. I think Hanlon's Razor applies in full force here, for better or worse. I do think the devs at DE are still passionate, it's just that the company has always had a problem of poor management, lack of follow-through, and inept pipelining of content updates, problems that have all been allowed to fester over the years. The problem with DE's approach to addressing bugs, design issues, and the like is that, unless it causes a huge fuss in the immediate or harms their grind loop, the devs prefer to bunch issues together and release them in one update as if it were new content, as was the case with the latest major updates. Outside of that, DE routinely has the approach of devoting all of their resources towards rushing a single big project out as soon as possible each time, which starves smaller projects of resources (sometimes to the point where they stagnate for years), and frequently leads to those big content updates coming out half-baked as well. This then creates more fires that DE vows to put out eventually, but rarely if ever properly does because by then they're focused on the Next Big ThingTM, and so the cycle begins anew. This is a problem that's been pointed out for quite some time (I remember this being mentioned as far back as in 2018). What DE likely needs to fix these issues is a comprehensive reform to its organizational structure, accountability process, and development pipeline, but that would likely require treading on a lot of people's toes, which is why it hasn't happened thus far. However, I also believe that the only way for things to change is to speak up about these things and not simply settle for a suboptimal status quo. I think it is still worth asking for DE to change how they interact with their community even if they're not currently listening, and who knows, if enough people make enough noise that could perhaps start something productive, no matter how incremental, as has happened on certain occasions before.
  7. As per the very comment you are replying to, the nomenclature makes a difference. DE has reacted in the past to exploits by punishing the players involved, and so in response to the optimization being called an exploit. You may call any unintended way of optimizing gameplay an "exploit", but the term is used specifically by developers to designate abusive behavior that they don't want to have around, which they address by fixing the exploit and/or punishing not just the people who took part in it, but even those who disseminated knowledge of it. "Counter-uproars" would not prevent players from being harmed by such a developer response, even if their punishments were to be reversed. Throwing around words with consequences willy-nilly like this is as reckless as it is stupid, and even if you're just trying to be pedantic rather than outright malicious, your definition would still not match up to how it is employed.
  8. If you truly consider this behavior an exploit and have done any of the following: Avoided walking into Grineer camps during Eidolon hunts in order to ensure Vomvalysts spawn near the entrance. Stuck together in a room with few entry points in a Survival mission to maximize spawns and the flow of enemies. Rushed past Vay Hek to his final boss room in order to trigger all of his escapes in one go. Then congratulations, you are an exploiter. Just like the thing mentioned in the OP, all of these rely on knowledge and proper triggering of the game's spawn system in order to optimize gameplay. None of them have caused issues, none of them have been addressed by DE, and certainly none of them are worth punishment, as is the case with actual exploits. But seriously, though, how miserable does one have to be to label any sort of optimization an "exploit"? What is it with this desire to punish other players for enjoying themselves? How does it hurt you when a few players use a spawning trick to shave a couple minutes off their grinding time? If the intent isn't to get anyone punished, then avoid using the term "exploit", because DE has punished people for exploits before, including with lifetime bans. Given that there is little consistency to their actions in this regard and that they are prone to knee-jerk reactions, I wouldn't so loosely use a term that, to the developers, is a sign that a player is engaging in genuinely abusive behavior.
  9. So what was that about Trinity's specter being better than Wisp's? It also seems you think Wisp's specter is also somehow better than any other, which begs the question as to why this is Trinity's problem in particular. Which "most situations"? Had I experienced the same frequency of Wisp specters as you claimed, or something at least a little closer to it, I would have agreed with you, but because my experience differs from the claim so significantly, and because there appears to be no evidence anywhere else to support that claim, I asked for some way to confirm that there was in fact this frequent usage of Wisp specters that I was somehow missing. Apparently, there is no supporting evidence, and even now you are contradicting yourself by stating that you too rarely see specters at all, which is much closer to my own experience as well. True damage does not trigger Sentient adaptation, and Sentient adaptation only applies to the damage types that trigger it. These are a very small minority of enemies even within their own factions (Treasurers in particular spawn in a mission only once). I fail to see how these explain Trinity's poor damage output, so much as her own poor damage output. If this is a thing no warframe can bypass... why is it a problem for Trinity, who possesses the only damage type capable of ignoring the most common source of damage reduction in the game? Again, EV being affected by some forms of DR (and far fewer than most other damage types) is not what's holding Trinity back from being a damage-dealer, so much as her notoriously low innate damage output. Okay, sure, tell me at which level EV starts to count as significant damage. Worth noting that Octavia's Mallet is by no means the only ability that scales, as plenty more also go into numbers more than high enough to deal with the enemies we face at most levels (Vauban's Flechette Orb scales with enemy level, for example, and Saryn's Spores damage goes up to 70,000 per second). It's always been the case? Link's max rank base duration has always been 12 seconds compared to Blessing's 10, and its cast time is only 0.1 seconds longer. Nekros is not a damage-dealing beast either, and when the change was effected, Trinity was still strong. While she was certainly one of the biggest culprits for abusing self-damage, she was by no means singled out. Get some sleep. You'll thank me in the morning, and this conversation will be better for it.
  10. So in the few situations where you've used a specter, you've found Trinity better than Wisp? What? I agree fully that Wisp is a great support, what you're saying just points out that her specter isn't a credible replacement for Trinity. That's interesting, because I've seen Wisp specters about twice in my gameplay. "Trust me bro" is not a credible source for a claim. Sure, from which sources? Because armor is the most common source of damage reduction, and is ignored by true damage. The existence of other DR is not what's holding Trinity back from being a DPS monster, so much as just a general lack of powerful damage effects (nuking single-target enemies with EV isn't that impressive anymore when most frames can kill crowds at a time). Link's duration is greater than Blessing's. Please, for the sake of intelligent discussion, actually read what you are presenting. The very text you are quoting states that damage link abilities, including Trinity's Link but also Nekros's Parasitic Link and Nekros's Shield of Shadows, all had their self-damage transmission turned off at the same time. Self-damage was removed only years later. Then stay off internet forums until you get sleep when you can, and come back to this conversation with a clear head. Confused, half-formed responses only waste your time and mine, and clog up the thread they're on.
  11. Right here: It doesn't make much sense to bring a Wisp specter to every mission, or even every defense mission, which is why that isn't done either. The whole notion that one brings a Wisp specter in case one wants a Trinity in a Defense mission is complete fiction. Who and where are these "most players"? EV deals true damage, which ignores armor. The DR you get from Blessing stacks with the DR from Link, giving you 93.75% damage reduction. This is equivalent to multiplying your effective health by a factor of 16, as opposed to the usual multiplier of 10 from 90% DR. Self-damage was taken out of every other damage-transmitting ability at the same time as Link. Trinity was not the only one affected. They did once, for good reason, because during those times Trinity was godlike. She was far too strong, and was turning missions into their current state back when resource replenishment and personal durability weren't quite where they are now. Her nerfs were well-deserved, and to this day I still think her Energy restoration is excessive, not that it's an issue now that everyone can get all the Energy they need. More pertinently, I think the biggest problem was that she was too good at offering power that just made the game less interesting, which is why she needs changes even now. You could have perhaps read a little further ahead before reflexively coming up with an answer, because your knee-jerk response is in fact exactly the point I was making. It's not just the existence of healing and Energy restoration in our options that made Trinity obsolete, it's the fact that our options cover essentially all of our needs, not just because they've become stronger, but also because we've become strong enough in so many other respects (through shield gating, for example) that we don't depend on what Trinity provides as much either. Merely chalking it down to a few mods or arcanes doesn't paint an accurate picture.
  12. Not enough apparently to know that she can heal defense objectives, a fact I told you that you could have verified independently, yet still chose to deny. Look at my statistics and come back to me with that question again. Biased as I may be, I don't think most people go through the trouble of constantly carrying around and using Wisp specters for the express purpose of making Trinity obsolete, not even during Defense missions. To be clear: I do in fact believe Trinity, other support frames, and the game all need to change. Trinity in particular is really clunky, and many other support frames have the problem of not working very well in pubs (Harrow especially can't use one of his abilities at all). I do agree that there's not enough interaction between players, and would like to move towards a game state where there'd be more of that. I do not, however, believe returning to a state of dependency on supports is what will improve the game or even the experience of playing supports, nor do I feel making harebrained comparisons to Wisp specters or the like is really going to set grounds for any discussion that would accurately describe the issue with Trinity, let alone any other support frame. Even with Vazarin's Energy dash, Magus Repair, and a Wisp specter, you are still not going to be able to play Trinity without actually playing Trinity, nor quite do all of the things she can do. The trouble with Trinity's popularity isn't simply that healing or Energy options exist (those were around while she was still dominant), but that we have become so powerful and self-reliant that we don't need a frame based entirely around supplementing our resources anymore. Some part of this could be improved with changes to the game, but I also think some part of it needs to be addressed by changing Trinity herself, as being a walking dispenser was never the most fun way to play her.
  13. You are most welcome to play Trinity and see for yourself. Yes, she can do this, and from what I'm seeing there appears to be an awful lot of people commenting on Trinity without actually knowing what she does. If you want to argue that a frame's contributions aren't unique because you can literally spawn that frame as a specter, then I guess no frame is unique, nor has any chance to be. Seriously, though, that is a pretty terrible argument when discussing the unique contributions and viability of any warframe.
  14. Funny you mentioned that, because I did. You see, I can post constructive feedback and call you out on your BS at the same time! Funny how that works. That's nice, good for you. Meanwhile, I and others can continue trying to push for positive change so that we can enjoy even more things about the game. If you're so unbothered by Warframe's issues, feel free to stay in your lane and stop ragging on other people for daring to suggest that it could use some improvements. Thanks!
  15. Which can be said just the same for DPS or tankiness, so you are simply repeating yourself here. As also pointed out, not only does this not prevent some frames from being able to support (again with the example of Wisp), it is also not a truly accurate representation of the problem given that, as also pointed out, support frames can still contribute things our customization options cannot. When the argument is that a frame's strengths are worthless if they can be accessed through customization options, that same argument can be applied to literally any aspect of any frame, as our customization options let us access most things, including damage increases and durability. The problem is not exclusive to support, and does not fully describe the problem with support frames in the game right now. It does have some relevance to some of Trinity's problems, because she was once great for providing constant top-ups to Energy and health, which are no longer needed as much due to our recovery options, but it neither describes them in their entirety (she's also a really clunky frame that's not very fun for most to play), nor accurately describes the problem of most supports (neither Harrow nor Titania specialize all that much in resource recovery, for example, but are still not especially popular, for different reasons). Framing the problem of supports in Warframe as one of customization options is making an excessive generalization that neither describes the problem effectively nor I think has much of a chance to offer useful solutions. Read what I posted again. Those specific examples I listed were of things that Trinity can do that are not provided by our customization options. No customization option will let you heal 100% of your entire team's health and shields from Affinity range (and provide 75% damage reduction to boot). No customization option will let you heal a defense objective. These are not necessarily game-changers in today's state of Warframe, but they are clear evidence that customization options don't completely swallow up all of Trinity's contributions. What we need isn't a return to a game with roles set in stone where dedicated support frames are once more necessary, what we need IMO is to drop the notion of dedicated supports in Warframe, or any sort of class with a single exclusive role: sure, we can and certainly should tone down some of our customization options so that we can't just trivialize every bit of gameplay we participate in, but we also need to make sure that even frames designated as support frames can do just fine on their own, and not need a premade group to be able to support their team. Trinity can do this already, and she should have those aspects amped up and updated to fit modern quality-of-life standards, rather than be forever relegated to being the game's resource battery.
×
×
  • Create New...