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Teridax68

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  1. This is one hell of an overreaction. Nobody is asking to delete Saryn's existence, nor deny these players the ability to play Warframe. The literal only request here is that those players be made to play in a way that isn't actively detrimental to the experience of others. If your definition of fun involves making the game less fun for others, then yeah, you probably shouldn't be playing Warframe altogether, but I'm happy settling with just curtailing that bit of "fun".
  2. So they're reverting her to her original design... but also reworks should try different things... but I'm also criticizing her just because she's changing? What? Every stage of your argument here makes no sense: you're still holding desperately onto the notion that Ember is being reverted into her original playstyle just because some part of her kit has DR now, even though literally every ability is different, her overall playstyle will be radically different, and the game context in which she is playing is also almost totally different from Warframe in its early years. Your accusation that I dislike Ember's rework simply because it's making her different is a blatant lie, as not only have I never said anything to that effect, I have in fact vocally supported drastic changes to Ember long before her rework, including the OP's. Why not? It clearly is, seeing how every new kit is being given damage mitigation. Even Vauban is getting armor: that's not him being reverted to his old passive or some "intended" niche of being a tank or whichever bull, that's him being given durability because every frame needs durability to be viable now. Which I did at length, and as shown with your exchange with EinheriarJudith, your requests for explanation are nothing but sealioning: both of us have explained ourselves at length, made plenty of actionable suggestions and targeted criticism... yet to you, that is never enough. When criticism is given, you say we didn't explain ourselves. When we do, you accuse us of not proposing solutions for change. When we do, you tell us to come up with other solutions for change, because for some reason the first ones weren't to your satisfaction. Meanwhile, you continue to contribute nothing to discussion, and instead monopolize conversation and harass others who disagree with you through spam-posting. As it stands, I have stated clearly that I do not like Ember's current design, and believe she needs serious changes to improve. That does not, however, mean I need to automatically agree with DE's proposed rework, because I think their changes have severe issues as well. Literally where? Point to where I said this, because as has been stated many times already, you are outright lying on this. My single point about Ember and her identity is that, as she stands, she is one of the game's few remaining glass cannon frames, and that if a glass cannon cannot remain a glass cannon and be viable in the current state of the game, then something about the current state of the game is severely wrong, namely the balancing of its enemy scaling and damage. It is you who then hijacked that statement by making the absolutely inane claim that we should be ignoring Ember's current kit, and instead looking exclusively at her original ability set from the game's launch. You are the literal only one talking about intent here, and have conjured up this utterly psychotic narrative that literally no-one else has ever bought into. ... which is why I never mind that argument in the first place. I don't know how you managed to conjure up this delusion. Sure, except where did I argue against this? If DE wants to turn Ember into a tank, they can; my point has simply been that they're giving every new frame a tanking ability, clearly not because they want every frame to be a tank, but because 90% damage reduction or some similar durability boost has become the standard for frames to survive high-level enemy damage output. The only thing I've argued on Ember's identity is that DE's current frame design does not allow true glass cannons to exist, and that damage mitigation abilities have become so common that they do not even imply anymore that the frame is a tank, contrary to your baseless claim to the contrary. The literal one person you praised on this thread, you praised because you thought they were being nice to DE by not directly criticizing the changes they were implementing. You did not even bother to give substantial feedback to their own, and were visibly not interested in the specifics of what they had to say. You're not accepting disagreement here, you're just trying to enforce white knighting. Sure, which is why I substantiate my criticism with argumentation and examples. You should know this, because we argued on Gauss and how players perceived his meter in relation to Ember's new meter, so you pretending like I never gave specifics is yet another blatant lie. Except when we do, you still bash us because literally no amount of specifics are good enough for you. It is not your job to police these forums on perceived quality of feedback, and it takes a monumental amount of arrogance and delusion to even believe you are entitled to do so. If you want good quality of discussion, leave the discussion, as you have done nothing but bog it down with pointless arguing and ill will. Which both of us did, yet again. Let's turn the tables here: what specific criticism do you have to make? What do you like and dislike about the Ember rework, specifically? What would your take on Ember be? Because so far you've expended an awful lot of effort asking others to refine their criticism to whichever degree, but don't seem to have put even an ounce of that effort towards discussing her design yourself. So far you have done nothing but attack other posters and discuss the people in this discussion, rather than the subject of discussion itself; a wholly unproductive and parasitic endeavor. This is a prime example of the hypocrisy I'm pointing out: EinheriarJudith did give targeted, actionable suggestions at your request... only for you to automatically reject them under a whole bunch of flimsy excuses. According to you, once a suggestion is made, apparently no-one else is allowed to express their support for it. For all your talk about how we shouldn't assume what DE can and cannot do, you do exactly that here, and have attempted to impersonate DE on multiple occasions in this thread. For all your purported intent to refine design discussion, the moment you start talking actual design, the only thing that comes out of you is the most trite drivel, like the tactic you're using here of accusing the person of suggesting that Warframe be turned into an entirely new game, just because you personally dislike the suggestion. Not only have you failed to enrich discussion on this thread, your presence has been actively detrimental to productive exchange, and because of your arguing nobody since has been able to engage in anything here but platitudes.
  3. It is perfectly valid to not want to alter your playstyle, however that also basically means augments aren't for you (and that's fine too, as there are many more mods out there to use). Sure, "augments" are just a name, but ultimately those mods do have a clear difference from the rest, in that they target specific abilities, and tend to introduce new mechanics entirely, as their purpose is in fact to alter that ability's, and by extension the frame's playstyle. They don't need to just make the frame or ability flat-out stronger without changing how they play, because that's what most mods do already anyway (and I'd argue it's worth questioning why a dedicated customization system isn't really letting the player customize their gameplay). This is also why band-aid augments tend to be criticized, even though they're picked often (and often they're criticized because they're picked often, usually because they're mandatory for a frame or build to work), because instead of having a mod that gives you some new and interesting option, you're getting a mod whose purpose is to patch up some innate dysfunctionality to your frame. Perhaps this could work in other games where player characters need to compensate for strong weaknesses in addition to capitalizing on their strengths, but Warframe is a game where players expect their frames to be largely self-sufficient and fully functional from the get-go. While you are obviously free to ignore counter-arguments as you wish, I think it is worth also questioning why it is so imperative to "deal" with augments by making them desirable at all costs: I'm actually largely on your side here, in that I too believe augments, like any other mod, deserve to have a solid presence in players' builds; however I believe the approach to that should be to make the actual modifier desirable (and genuinely interesting), rather than basically just tacking on a generic power mod to it. If a pure augment isn't everyone's cup of tea... that's absolutely okay. People should be allowed to enjoy the game the way they want, and those who don't want to alter their playstyle have a whole bunch of mods still that would make them straight-up more powerful. On the flipside, though, toning down the uniqueness of augments isn't great for those who are looking to meaningfully alter their gameplay, so really, if we want to make everyone happy, we should look to making augments valuable because of their unique mechanics (which should genuinely add to an already solid frame, not paper over some deficiency), rather than pump them full of generic power until everyone picks them on stats alone.
  4. Then why are you insisting that she is being reverted to a version of her that clearly has very little to do with her new intended playstyle, and came from a completely different state of the game? Wrong... how? What are you even accusing me of here? My simple point, one that others have brought up as well, was that frames are being saddled with damage reduction not because it's a part of their identity, but because that is simply what frames currently need to survive high-level content. It is you who stepped in to make the dubious claim that, actually, DE intended to rework Ember into a fire tank all along, and so despite a patent lack of supporting evidence to that effect. Sure, except I'm not telling DE, they're wrong about her identity, I'm telling you that you're wrong to pretend like you are singlehandedly Digital Extremes, and the sole authority on what identity they are trying to give her, again in total absence of anything to back you up. You are quite simply making things up, for reasons I do not understand other than some vague desire to appear smarter than everyone else on this thread. Which I did, including in the very post you jumped on once you decided to hijack this thread. You keep trotting out this argument regardless of context in an attempt to frame your opponent as unproductive, when in reality it is you who are contributing negatively to discussion by rejecting valid arguments out of hand, and refusing to let others express criticism if you personally disagree with it.
  5. But they're not in any way reverting to her original design, though: she's losing Accelerant, Fire Blast works completely differently, and World On Fire has been replaced entirely. The one thing she is getting back is a steroid that only vaguely resembles Overheat. Your narrative here simply makes no sense. Yes, but that does not mean players have asked for Ember to be reverted to her previous self, nor is that what is being implemented. It doesn't matter what the "original intent" for her was in this respect, because it clearly changed radically. DE are certainly the developers, but you are not, and you do not get to invent out of the blue the notion that Ember is being reworked into some kind of tank, and so purely because she is being given a defensive tool just like any other recently-released or reworked frame.
  6. No, where in the dev stream did they specify that that was the exact tradeoff? You are making things up here. But your point is wrong, again because you are failing to acknowledge the version of Ember that has existed for the longest time. That's my point.
  7. Both suggestions literally redo the ability entirely. Which part of their threads gave the impression that they wanted to keep the ability in its current state, exactly? It nonetheless points out how the charges deplete from any source of damage, as you yourself noted. The change they are proposing would not only make the ability much more consistent, but would also make it significantly more powerful by having the charges last longer. It praises Mesmer Skin for its power and CC, but specifically criticizes its implementation, notably its charge system. I never claimed that Mesmer Skin had strictly no positive traits, and pointing to praise that has nothing to do with the mechanic being actually criticized is a transparent attempt at distracting from the fact that many more people have criticized Mesmer Skin's charge system, despite your claims to the contrary. And? How does this make the ability more consistent? Okay, so I just did a bit of testing in the Simulacrum, and as it turns out, there is no hidden timer between depleted charges, as you had claimed. If Revenant gets hit by two different enemies within a near-instantaneous period of time, he will lose two charges within that time, regardless of how close those attacks are to each other. I therefore have no idea where you got a different impression with all of your experience playing Revenant. With regards to this particular attempt at dismissal, though, while enemies would still be put to sleep upon hitting Revenant, the lack of an internal timer means that a small group of Grineer could in fact deplete quite a few of his charges within a very short span of time. This also feeds back into the above, and contradicts your claim that the ability's nonexistent timer makes it more consistent. More broadly, you are conspicuously attempting to dismiss the opinion of every other poster I've brought up, even though they consistently prove my point that there is a desire to change Mesmer Skin, with criticism typically pointing to its charge system. Sure, but we're specifically talking about the Star Chart here, not level 1700, so bragging about Revenant's tankiness at low levels doesn't really say much. What the upper bound does say, however, is that Revenant breaks the game's difficulty scaling, precisely because Mesmer Skin completely ignores enemy damage values and can be recast at anytime, meaning that so long as Revenant presses 2 at the right time, he gets to completely ignore enemy levels. That is, by the way, not a good thing. Except Iron Skin can be stacked to literal millions of hitpoints and has a visual indicator directly on Rhino himself to indicate how close it's to wearing out, meaning one can maintain it at a decent rate without even needing to check the exact values or the ability bar. Also, you're singing a different tune here from a previous post: So which one is it, then? Are you just occasionally glancing at Revenant's stacks, or are you keeping "a very sharp eye" on them, building up specialized recasting reflexes, and keeping constant track of stunned enemies at a full 360 range? But it is in fact fiddly to use in practice, as others have pointed out above. Enemy inaccuracy does not prevent the fact that, when they actually do hit Revenant, the rate at which his stacks deplete varies wildly from fight to fight, and so in ways that are not intuitive relative to other durability steroids. A frame can have clunky and counterintuitive mechanics, yet still be easy to play, especially if we're restricting ourselves to the Star Chart here. Baruuk, Hildryn and Valkyr are all frames with an infamous degree of clunk in their ability sets, for example, yet that still have an easy time tanking all the way through the Star Chart and even Sorties. Again, you seem to be failing to answer the actual point at hand, and seem to be addressing arguments I've never made in the first place: in this case, I have never argued that Mesmer Skin was a weak tanking ability, and in fact I not only agreed that it's strong, but in fact believe it may be too strong in certain situations. I have, however, pointed out that the ability's one of the less consistent durability steroids in the game, and so due to its charge system, which doesn't work well with variable enemy rates of fire in Warframe, none of which what you just posted contradicts. You are contradicting your past self here, as pointed out above. Additionally, I took the time to go through the video you linked in greater detail, and from 0:24 to 0:25 you can clearly see from the ability bar that Revenant drops from 15 to 11 charges near-instantly, which casts further doubt as to why you'd claim the existence of a timer. You are yet again contradicting yourself here, and considering how even your own video disproves what you are saying about how Mesmer Skin works, I don't even know if I can even take your word on anything you say about Revenant now. Sure, the frame scales freakishly well into ultra-high levels thanks to Mesmer Skin and Reave, but that itself does not prevent his kit from being notoriously clunky in many different ways. Sure, but that too is inconsistent and cannot be adequately predicted, as even your own video shows. I don't really see what you're trying to argue here. If you fail to see my point after I have stated and explained it plainly, then I do not know what more I can do to get you to understand, as it's becoming increasingly clear that understanding others and their points is not in fact your goal in this discussion. You have completely changed your argumentation from post to post, used a falsehood as a key argument, and frequently argued through straw men and red herrings, as is also the case here: thus, I think it is fair to question your motives in this argument, particularly as you have been excessively defensive of Revenant throughout this thread, and routinely dismissive of contrary opinions. In the short-term, I'm not married to any particular idea, so I think there's a range of choices that could include the following: Go with the Negation Swarm model and actually implement a timer, so that when Revenant gets hit, he gets a grace period where he loses no Mesmer Skin charges, but still reflects attacks back at enemies and stuns them normally. Change Mesmer Skin into a Nezha-like damage reduction+buffer effect, where Revenant gains damage reduction, plus CC/status immunity and a buffer to draw from instead of health, but then also gets to add the health + shields of his Thralls to the buffer. Have Revenant consume a Thrall to heal and gain a period of damage+status immunity. In the long-term, though, I don't think simply pressing a button for on-demand damage mitigation is the most interesting effect to have, which is why I think the third of the above suggestions would likely work out the best, as it involves paying some other cost (plus it has Revenant play more into the theme of sacrificing expendable minions for personal gain). In general, as mentioned at the start of this thread, I think Revenant needs some pretty drastic changes, and at that stage talking about any individual ability would likely need to fit into the larger context of a comprehensive rework.
  8. But if your attempt to tank involves surviving lots of damage, Nova or any other CC frame will help you by limiting the enemy's damage output, itself a generally desirable thing. For sure, there are edge cases like Chroma wanting to take more damage, Slowva being a pain in the neck in Defense missions, and Speeva being trollish to use outside of low-level Defense missions, but ultimately these edge cases are small and nuanced enough that they typically do not create problems (and when problems do arise, it's typically because of some rare Nova troll, who's going to be suffering just as much from the consequences of her actions as everyone else, which is why those types are so rare). Similarly, mechanics like invincibility, invisibility, etc. may trivialize many missions, but ultimately, as is the case with most easymode frames, that only affects the frame user, not their teammates. By contrast, Saryn is currently designed in such a way that simply playing her normally lowers her teammates' ability to interact with the game: thus, unlike frames with rare abuse cases such as Nova, or frames like Loki, Inaros, etc. who make the game trivially easy for whoever's playing them, and them only, Saryn's basic playstyle is abusive to her teammates. For sure, she's not the only frame with problems, and ideally I'd like to see a Warframe where every design problem is addressed, but hers are frame-dependent issues, not systemic ones. Blaming the game as a whole instead of focusing on specific problem mechanics, despite mentioning them by name, in this respect I think diffuses responsibility, and makes it harder to take any effective action instead of facilitating it.
  9. See, I don't think that's entirely accurate, because Saryn is also good at killing high-health mobs, thanks to her scaling damage, and liberal application of Corrosive + Viral procs. It's one of the reasons why she's so good in ESO, because she just wipes everything, pretty much regardless of faction. It's also what makes her annoying to play with: if she at least left the tougher mobs for others to finish off, that would at least leave a sliver of interaction, but unfortunately that's not the case, so she ends up leaving no-one alive for others to fight. Framing the entire matter as a pure question of efficiency or difficulty thereby ignores the core reason behind the complaints, which is that Saryn's kit currently removes interaction from the game for her teammates: once again, if this only trivialized the game for Saryn alone, that'd be fine, because we have plenty of easymode frames like Inaros, Octavia, Rhino, etc. whose simple gameplay may be too simple for some, perfect for others, but always at least tolerable to play alongside (Octavia and Rhino especially in fact tend to be fun to play with, thanks to their CC/utility). However, the problem here is that Saryn also trivializes the game for everyone else, which has her force a playstyle, or lack thereof, upon others, thereby generating the complaints seen in this thread among many more. This is the difference between writing a Mary Sue character and godmoding over other players in a group pen-and-paper RPG session: the former may be easy to poke fun at, but is ultimately harmless, whereas the latter is obnoxious and actively detrimental to the experience of others in a multiplayer game. This is purest hypocrisy, as not only have you been one of the main initiators and biggest culprits in slinging insults and derailing productive conversation, but have done both deliberately with the express intent of shutting this thread down. The better solution would be to just remove trolls like you from this thread and allow intelligent discussion to resume, and the same could be applied to many more threads locked after single white knights deliberately started flame wars, with the full knowledge that moderators here tend to prefer to shut entire discussions down than directly address individual problem posters.
  10. A cursory look at threads that discuss Revenant here shows they all propose reworks to Mesmer Skin, and even on Reddit, there is consistent criticism of the charge system. There is indeed at least one user focusing their topics on the issue, but there is clearly a notable amount of people who also have been raising that same criticism. Which still does not prevent it from being easy by today's standards due to the enemy's level ranges there. Even the ability to tank damage at that level is nothing particularly special at this point. So as a side note, I do in fact think that asking the player to constantly check their ability bar or some other meter isn't the best gameplay, but that's not even the strict standard I'm operating on here: my point is that it is generally good for the player to have some intuitive sense of when their steroid is going to run out, which is the case for duration-based steroids when the player gets a handle on how long they last. Even in the case of buffer-based steroids like Iron Skin or Warding Halo, it is possible to approximately gauge how much heat one can take before the effect will run out. By contrast, as you yourself mentioned, Mesmer Skin doesn't have that intuitiveness, because its depletion has no correlation with the amount of damage taken, nor with any specific duration, to say nothing of the many inconsistent interactions with the environment, certain enemies, etc. that you brought up. Okay, but as evidenced by what I linked, my claim is not being made in isolation, and ultimately the real issue here is that you're the one actually doing what you're accusing me of here: you are claiming that Mesmer Skin is reasonable because you, a veteran Revenant player who openly admits to constantly checking his charge numbers, don't have any real issues with the ability. It should be obvious that if you spend a large amount of time committing to a frame and their quirks, their quirks will eventually become ingrained in your playstyle, yet that does not prevent said quirks from making the frame less approachable for those who aren't ready to dedicate that same amount of time. I myself main Trinity, and have the Link and Blessing durations on my build hard-wired into my muscle memory, to the point where I rarely have any downtime on my damage reduction and know how to handle the casts while doing other things: that does not prevent the fact that the gameplay tied to constantly recasting Link, and spamming Blessing, is tedious to many, and deserving of change towards something more approachable. A similar argument can be made here I think for Revenant and Mesmer Skin's charge system. Sure, but even if he didn't, players still can't easily get an intuitive grip of the ability, again because the ability varies in a way that you yourself said is weird. For sure, Mesmer Skin enables great feats of tanking, if only because the player can just constantly recast Mesmer Skin from its invulnerability, but its great power does not prevent the fact that it's probably clunkier than it needs to be for many. Again, the rate at which the charges deplete. When the player looks at their ability bar for a duration-based steroid, it at least gives them a clear picture of when the ability will end, whereas seeing X charges remaining means they could still stay on for a while longer, or could get depleted within half the time period. At least with a buffer, the health-like value gives an idea of how much heat the player can take if they're familiar enough with the enemy's overall damage output in their mission. An ability having indicators and an ability not progressing at an intuitive or consistent rate are two separate issues, and even you mentioned the ability operates weirdly due to how it's based on individual hits, rather than damage or duration. My point here is therefore that it may benefit some players to keep the effects and intent of the ability, while finding another way of deploying and maintaining the steroid that would be smoother overall for players not terribly experienced with playing Revenant.
  11. 100 ms just to be able to start attacking is a huge delay compared to being able to attack instantly, and once again we have the current and previous combat systems to highlight just how clunky it was to have to manually switch weapons before attacking each time. It doesn't matter how easy your solution is to implement here if it's not going to be smooth: what you're messing with here is a core aspect of the game's feel, so if it's not right, might as well not do it at all.
  12. This thread's very OP raises doubts here, as it is by no means the only one making that same criticism. Moreover, Mesmer Skin being powerful does not prevent it from also being perceived as inconsistent due to its charge system. I don't think anyone here has stated that Revenant is hard to play, and really, one can take most frames through the Star Chart with basic mods and do decently, so I'm not entirely sure how this relates to the discussion. People do not have issue with the Ropalolyst fight, because the Ropalolyst is by and large a particularly easy enemy to face. You are thus using an incredibly specific example, one that is uncharacteristic of how the rest of the game plays, to make a general point, which I think ends up undermining it more than anything else. The issue being discussed is not one purely of speed, though, but of overall consistency, thus I think the issue applies regardless of how quick the stacks deplete. Just so we're clear, Revenant's ability bar already indicates exactly how many charges he has at any given time, so I'm not sure why we're even discussing such indirect means of assessing his charge count to begin with.
  13. Then why do players point out the inconsistency of the steroid on Revenant, and specifically Revenant? I think you misunderstood me here: my point here was never that ability nullification automatically made for gameplay, but simply that duration-based steroids have, by definition, perfectly predictable durations, unless they get nullified, in which case it is still generally easy to be aware of the fact. What I am saying here is that Mesmer Skin has one of the less predictable depletion rates, because in spite of the mini-timer for each charge that (sometimes) activates, the depletion rate still depends heavily on enemy numbers, rates of fire, etc., in a manner that you yourself mentioned was counter-intuitive due to how it didn't depend on damage per shot.
  14. That's easy: This was, by the way, in response to me saying that because Warframe is a multiplayer game, its frames need to be designed not to harm their teammates' experience, so it stands to reason that you were trying to excuse her multiplayer problems by arguing that she wasn't designed for group play. Backtracking here does nothing to hide the fact that you've both implicitly acknowledged and tried to excuse her ability to deny her allies a core part of Warframe's gameplay. Less intrusive for you, perhaps, but far more obtrusive for everyone else. Again, your reasoning applies to any rework, yet those reworks have happened, even when the intent was purely to fix a frame's impact in group play. Frames with radial nuke problems are not literally all nuke frames, unless that's how you are personally defining nuke frames, in which case for sure they should all be reworked. It feels like you're trying to quote mine me here more than make any sort of cogent point, as the quote you pulled visibly does not support your accusation. Perhaps I am, but my opinion is supported by the fact that there is a majority of people here who are in fact criticizing Saryn, despite the attempts by a minority as vocal as they are tiny to clog up this thread with white knighting. Moreover, as a quick search should indicate, this is by no means the only thread criticizing Saryn, and the result are the same with entirely different samples of people, and so across every Warframe-themed discussion space. If DE thinks differently, I'd be interested as to where they'd be getting their information from, and even more so as to how you'd know DE's opinion any better than me. Please. For all this verbiage, all you're saying is that the people who wouldn't like Saryn getting changed are those who don't want Saryn to change. That's neither contradictory to my statement, nor profound in any respect. Sure, perhaps it would take a little more effort, but the tradeoff would be a tangible improvement to game health, and less noise on the forums thanks to Saryn no longer being annoying to play with. This too is an absolutely pathetic argument to make, particularly as it could apply to literally any request for change, and is never a good reason on its own to avoid making said change. ... because the solutions you proposed are themselves massively inconvenient, far more so than the ones I suggested. Again, you are literally asking anyone who dislikes Warframe turning into a walking simulator because of Saryn to exclusively use Recruiting chat prior to every mission just to find like-minded people who promise not to pick Saryn: if you genuinely don't see how bad an idea that is, you clearly haven't played Warframe recently enough to remember how quick it is to enter missions, much less to discuss the finer points of its design. Yes, it is crap, because while improved grouping tools would improve the experience of people grouping for things actually worth grouping for, it would not prevent the fact that forcing players into those optimized grouping tools for the sole purpose of avoiding Saryn would still massively slow down the rate at which they'd be able to play the game, which is itself an equally massive inconvenience. You are talking nonsense, and you know this. Who says I want to make her play worse in groups? You are completely making things up at this point, and inventing a fake moral high ground to try to justify what is ultimately a very selfish desire to resist change to a notoriously unhealthy warframe. The only irony I see here is you now pleading for me to empathize with you when you have continued to show complete callousness towards everyone else here but yourself. Except I don't want to change Saryn because I think she's too powerful, I want to change her because her design is unhealthy. You apparently cannot make the difference between the two, which is perhaps why you're being so defensive about any possible change to her, without any specifics even needing to be mentioned. Adapting to what, her ability to turn my mission into a walking simulator? How exactly does one "adapt" to that, pray tell? Why am I even supposed to be competing with a teammate for the ability to enjoy the game? Once again, you are employing the merest trappings of oft-used expressions without any comprehension of what those words actually mean, to the extent where you argument makes no sense when examined critically. I'm not even talking about balance, though. I don't care about the finer points of balance in Warframe, because Warframe has never been an even remotely balanced game, and frames have managed to successfully coexist despite vast differences in power. I don't care if Saryn is "too powerful", all I care about is whether a warframe is healthy, i.e. if they are a) fun to play, b) fun to play with, and c) able to contribute towards a more diverse and enjoyable metagame. Saryn in particular satisfies conditions a) and c), but not condition b), because she clearly isn't fun to play with for many, for reasons mentioned already. Thus, she needs to change, and I'd be perfectly happy with a change that would be a net buff to her, provided that change also preventing her from robbing teammates of the gameplay they are entitled to. I'm not saying this out of any personal dislike for Saryn, either, as I do also enjoy playing her, but am also careful with how I use her precisely because she can make missions so dull for everyone else. Similarly, I main Trinity and love the frame to bits, but will also be the first to point out her flaws and suggest drastic changes with the outright intent to nerf her: she definitely satisfies condition b) from the above in my opinion, though could stand to use some improvements to condition a) due to some lingering clunkiness, but my main issue is that she absolutely doesn't satisfy condition c), because she fills too many niches at once and has actually significantly harmed Warframe's metagame over time by providing near-infinite Energy and survivability to her teammates for most of her career. More generally, I think one should be able to simultaneously acknowledge one's enjoyment of a frame, while accepting that they may be flawed and in need of change, and when people cannot separate the two, that typically limits design talk to shallow, barely-useful conversation. The ability to engage in combat with enemies. That is what we had both been discussing throughout the exchange already, so I'm not sure why you would want to waste both our time with this sham request for explanation. You're right, I don't care about them in this context, because they're beside the point. I in fact want to bring those aspects to the forefront, because under different circumstances Saryn would be the best debuff frame in the game (and she has that in her already), but even that is currently being made to play second fiddle to her capacity for gratuitous room-clearing. In other words, Saryn's current state is bad for her group play aspects no simply because she often makes gameplay actively unpleasant for her groups, but because the stuff she does that could genuinely benefit groups isn't being allowed to shine. Speaking of deflection, your reply here is a pure tu quoque that does not even attempt to contradict the fact that you have in fact argued through false excuses and accusations. On my side, I have made no excuses, and while I have certainly accused you of things, I have always backed up my accusations with evidence and supporting arguments, whereas as has been pointed out in the quote you are replying to, you simply throw both around in great quantity, yet make no effort to make them even sound true. No, it's not. When something has been consistently reported to worsen play experience, that thing is abusive, and your personal disagreement on the matter on the pure grounds that you're exploiting said abusive feature here does not contradict this fact. As it stands, though, I do get to say this precisely because there has been consistent and sizeable feedback on this very same problem ever since Saryn's latest rework, so your attempt to deny that too is delusion, pure and simple. More generally, to attempt a "X is subjective" argument just to dismiss a valid point is to play a losing game here: either your argument suggests that we should instead base ourselves on consensus, in which case you lose because all evidence clearly points to you being on the wrong side of the consensus, or else your argument simply dismisses the entire discussion as invalid, in which case you also lose, as it becomes an implicit admission that you just spent a whole lot of time and effort making arguments you acknowledge as worthless. In neither case does this help your case. The implication here is that you don't actually consider everyone's arguments to be subjective, but that you consider everyone else's arguments to be subjective, and by extension yours the only ones worth listening to. In general, dismissing any piece of design discussion you don't like on the grounds that it's "subjective" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the nature and value of critique, and isn't a good look on a feedback forum. Sure, there has been consistent feedback on both sides... and one of those sides has consistently been considerably larger than the other, as this very thread itself evidences. There are literally two sides to any issue, that does not mean we should take both sides to be equally true no matter what, any more than we should deny climate change or believe the Earth is flat just because a tiny, vocal minority of people are ready to argue those sides. In other words, anyone who takes any issue with any frame in the game should take literal hundreds of times as much time starting up missions just so that they can avoid the small chance of a notoriously problematic frame making their mission less fun. Your attempts to finagle on semantics here do nothing to disguise the fact that the "workaround" you are proposing is laughably impractical and obviously disingenuous, as your sole intent here is to avoid the real issue at hand that is Saryn. Okay, so quick aside, but because this is not the first time you have made that exact same spelling mistake, the correct word is "whether". Weather is rain, sunshine, wind, etc. Now that that's been addressed... what? What are you even arguing here? Where is any of this coming from? I'm puzzled, because it looks like you're trying very hard to insert words in my mouth that I have never even remotely implied, and so in response to me pointing out that you made an argument that was self-evidently wrong. It is simple propositional logic to acknowledge that people who never go on the forums will, by definition, never see your posts on the forums, and it easily follows from there that your claim to be making your posts for their reading sake is thus absurd. To claim that because of this I'm stating that nobody else shares my opinion is a complete non-sequitur, one that is also easily contradicted by the fact that my opinion on Saryn is verifiably shared by many people across many discussion spaces, not just these forums. To call your apologetics a "counter perspective" would be a tad too generous, as ultimately all you have done is produce knee-jerk opposition to the merest suggestion of change to Saryn, all because you are opposed to any change to her on principle, and so even despite acknowledging the fact that she lessens her teammates' enjoyment of missions. You may hold a perspective, and that perspective may even be shared by some other people, but that does not mean your perspective automatically deserves to get taken seriously. Oh, for sure, I am doing my part by doing what I can to criticize the game and its many different aspects fairly, analyze what I perceive to be its issues, and offer ideas on how to address them in order to improve the game. Many others on these forums, thankfully, do the same. To insinuate yourself into this group, however, is to insult it, because despite the copious amounts of text you've dumped onto this thread, you have ultimately failed to produce any actionable feedback or move discussion forward, and so because contributing positively was never your intention in the first place. You're not here to offer a measured critique of the game or discuss how to improve it, you're here because someone made a suggestion you personally didn't like, and you're ready to bog down discussion for everyone else if it means burying the dissenting opinion through your sheer volume of repetitive dross. Nothing you have said so far has been new or even interesting, and your intentions are patently selfish and false. That is not an attitude that benefits the game, and in fact it is precisely because of people like you that DE takes more time than they should to accept feedback, because these forums are infested with self-interested white knights who fill threads with pointless noise, and give the developers the false notion that things are peachy when there are in fact problems that need to be addressed. This is a vacuous argument that holds no value of its own. Just because a single person, or some other small number, believes Saryn is fine, does not make that belief automatically valid, particularly in the face of contrary evidence. This too is a vacuous statement that conflates adapting to a problematic frame with believing her to be fun. When I play ESO I will "adapt" to Saryn by either riding with the inevitable one or two Saryns per pug up to wave 8, or play the frame myself, and when a Saryn monopolizes combat in a defensive mission I'm in, I can easily mentally tune out and think about something else. In neither case does that invalidate the problems with Saryn's gameplay, or the fact that her existence in missions tends to make gameplay duller. Similarly, many players, myself included, can see the usefulness of Limbo in many missions, while still acknowledging the frustration his kit often induces when allies are prevented from interacting normally with enemies. Because those "alternative solutions" are disproportionately inconvenient relative to the problem at hand, and are visibly being suggested in bad faith purely as a distraction. Quitting Warframe altogether is also an "alternative solution"; that does not make it a desirable or valid one. Except they wouldn't, because relying on some group finder to assemble Saryn-free groups, instead of just hopping into a pug and being able to expect healthy gameplay, is still horribly clunky, time-consuming, and altogether unjustified. The suggestion itself begs the question as to why Saryn isn't being directly addressed. Which my proposal satisfies, and yours doesn't. My proposal to change Saryn would only reliably affect those who would oppose any change no matter what, whereas your proposal to force people into some hypothetical recruiting tool (which, by the way, would be time-consuming and thus inconvenient in the short-term for DE to implement, not that you seem to care) affects a much larger number of people who take issue with not being able to engage in combat in a looter shooter. You seem rather desperate to frame the two sides of this discussion as equally valid, yet are unable to make anything but the shallowest of comparisons, because any further inspection quickly reveals that the exchange is painfully one-sided: at the end of the day, you're trying to legitimately justify a frame denying a core gameplay element from their teammates, and no amount of false equivalence is going to make that come across as convincing to anyone but those few that have the same vested interest as you do. These arguments are beyond stupid. You are asking players to go through some utterly insane and evidently undesirable workarounds just to avoid the off-chance of running into a Saryn, and behind all of those laughable attempts at deflection lies the implicit admission that Saryn does in fact deny a core aspect of gameplay to her teammates when she's around. Worth mentioning here as well that: Point A has already been addressed several times, so you are merely repeating yourself in the vain hope that putting the argument forth this time will make it less wrong than the last. Asking players to shut off multiplayer in Warframe just to avoid dealing with its design issues is an utterly terrible idea that does not even benefit the developers, let alone the playerbase, due to how it just aims to isolate people. You are clearly not making this argument in good faith. Point C is incoherent at best, and insulting at worst. Why should anyone be thanking anyone else for worsening their play experience? You seem to be reasoning purely in terms of efficiency here, in complete and deliberate ignorance of the fact that Warframe is a video game meant to provide enjoyment. Point D has also already been addressed several times. Repeating it here when it's already been pointed out that "upping your arsenal" has no impact on Saryn's problems isn't going to convince anyone, but it's certainly going to paint you as a dishonest debater. Ultimately, all of these arguments are merely an attempt to shift blame away from Saryn's design and onto the players complaining about them, a tactic as transparent as it is cowardly. I don't really see how you expect to convince anyone here. Except waiting for teammates to catch up isn't contradicting some fundamental aspect of the game, and your frustration with it merely underlines the fact that you are incapable of playing or empathizing with others. Some players being slower than others isn't some game design problem, whereas Saryn's kit letting her kill enemies before her team can reach them is. Ho ho, it seems like I struck a nerve. So interesting to see the mask drop on your part, where you go from feigned, condescending politeness to pure, petulant venom, right down to wishing me to quit the game simply I disagreed with your mediocre opinion. As it stands, your blubbering here is itself a case of projection, as I have clearly made arguments that do not stem from my personal opinion of Saryn, whereas you have spectacularly failed to acknowledge the existence of anyone but yourself and your opinions in this debate. Also, as is to be expected, you are lying: your record shows over 250k kills on Saryn Prime alone, suggesting you routinely abuse her in ESO. You patently have an interest in keeping Saryn exactly the way she is, and the fact that you deny playing the character at all merely highlights the personal stake you have in this conversation, and the underhanded tactics you are willing to use to that goal. ... loot itself is inherently worthless if there are no enemies left alive to test one's shiny toys on. You're obsessing way too much over the mere results of playing missions, while rather obviously failing to acknowledge that the fun in Warframe comes from its actual gameplay. That is why Warframe is a looter shooter, and not simply a looter. You seem to have it backwards: my entire point was that you seem to think that your personal choice to "suck it up" should also be forced upon everyone else, regardless of what they think, which is such an evidently narcissistic and harmful mentality that it boggles the mind that you'd endorse it so wholeheartedly. Meanwhile, my mentality is that when a solvable problem exists, I try to do something about it: going back to my example, I'm not saying my suggestion for Nidus is what should be implemented, but it would certainly neatly address the problem you mentioned at apparently no detriment to the player. It is not something I am suggesting needs to be implemented, but it could potentially improve the game in some respect nonetheless, and that I think is something inherently worth striving towards. The fact that you would not only reject such a suggestion out of hand, but outright deem it offensive, shows just how ill-suited you are to be discussing anything at all on a feedback forum, as you fundamentally believe anyone else's critique to be invalid by default. So first, I went on a little paragraph above in this same post about the inherent stupidity of dismissing contrary opinions under the excuse of "X is subjective", but this particular case is especially moronic, as it a) presumes the ability to make missions less enjoyable for allies to itself be a form of fun worthy of consideration, and b) tries to present that form of "fun" as equally valid, despite the fact that there is a clear imbalance at hand. As a looter shooter that obviously features a lot of combat, it stands to reason that one of Warframe's core sources of generally-acknowledged fun is, well, its combat. To be denied this can therefore also be assumed to be considered not fun, at least to people who aren't armchair philosophizing from their ivory tower on the internet. Like any other person resorting to the trite "fun is subjective" argument, you fail to understand that a subjective thing can still be quantified and analyzed based on statistics, and that subjectivity does not equate to a complete absence of consensus or trends. This applies not only to video game design, but also to actual sciences, namely any social science, so you really have no business trotting that non-argument out on this forum. Putting aside all the childish bile you're trying to throw my way here irrespective of its relevance to the topic of discussion (or just basic coherence), my argument here was never that assembling a premade was difficult, but rather that it is demonstrably far more time-consuming than just selecting a mission and forming a pug almost immediately. Assuming generously that assembling a full group and entering a mission takes a total of two minutes, as opposed to the ten seconds of a pug, that is already a time difference factor of twelve, an order of magnitude greater. You are thus asking players to experience a massive slowdown to the rate at which they enter missions just to work around the design problem at hand, instead of addressing said problem directly. But that's not feedback, that's you desperately trying to present yourself as superior to others based on your inability to understand the purpose of feedback. You're not saying anything constructive, insightful, or even true, you're just clogging discussion with toxic, self-aggrandizing drivel. In other words, you have no qualms criticizing the game when you feel like it, you just think that when anyone else does it and you don't agree with the criticism, it's "bs self entitlement". Nope, no hypocrisy here whatsoever... /s
  15. But the problem isn't necessarily that Revenant will lose tons of stacks instantly, but simply that he will lose stacks at an inconsistent and often unpredictable rate, whereas Vex Armor's duration is perfectly predictable, provided it doesn't get nullified. Looking around to see how many enemies are being stunned (and so specifically by Mesmer Skin) is itself not particularly reasonable for the average player to keep track of, as Warframe is a much more chaotic game overall.
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