How About An Entirely New Kind Of Mod?

[Zanukacola]

With the introduction of new mods like equilibrium and quick thinking, I'm glad to say that the mod pool is finally becoming a little more interesting than just 'gain x% bonus to y stat'. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing big numbers as much as the next guy, but in order to keep things fresh, I think that Warframe could use some even more extreme mod additions.

 

What I mean is that there are very few mods that really alter the way you play Warframe. The vast majority of mods are like Serration or Redirection; they don't change what you do, they just let you do things better. Again, this isn't a bad thing. But I believe that a new class of mods should be created to do the exact opposite. Rather than making your shield 200% stronger, or making your rifle do 100% more damage, I think there needs to be special mods that totally change your playstyle without significantly altering your power level.

 

Allow me to introduce my idea, the Paradigm Mod. This new kind of mod would be exclusively rare, possibly dropped from certain bosses, or even crafted in the foundry. I know, the game has too much RNG already, but the point is that these mods are 1) Hard to get and 2) Obtainable through clearly defined objectives. This is to ensure that these mods are something that players can intentionally seek out and obtain in order to change their playstyles, rather than something that you just get at random.

 

The paradigm mod would have a single level and could fit under any of the existing polarities. This would also include the = (ability) polarity, as some Paradigm Mods could act as a replacement ability, taking the number key of one of the frame's abilities. The overarching theme of Paradigm Mods is great power at great cost. Accordingly, you can only equip one at a time. These are mods that will allow you to do something cool or unusual, but they're gonna severely impact your ability to perform certain functions. But let me cut to some examples to better illustrate my idea. (Not necessarily all original ideas, but potential implementations within what I'm suggesting)

 

Grappling Hook

Polarity: =

+You have a grappling hook; one of your abilities allows you to shoot out a hook which attaches to the first thing it hits and pulls you to it. This costs a very small amount of energy. (5?)

-You can't sprint.

 

Quicksilver (Credit to MageMeat for the name)

+Your ability animations play twice as fast and cost half as much.

-All weapons deal half damage.

 

Vampirism (Kinda like the nightmare mode)

+You regain health equal to X% of the damage you deal.

-You constantly bleed health.

 

Evasion

+You have a chance to totally ignore damage based on how fast you're moving, further increased based on how long you've been moving for (Increased by sprinting, increased even more by long wallruns, etc)

-You have no shield.

 

Juggernaut

+You take half damage from everything when you're standing still.

-You lose 70% of your stamina.

 

Double Strike

+Your charge times are halved, normal melee attacks swing twice (in the time it would normally take to swing once), you take reduced damage from enemies you have recently meleed.

-You can't use guns and draw increased aggro from enemies.

 

Grappling hook would force you to move around by hooking onto things rather than sprinting or parkouring, which would open up totally new ways to navigate a map. Evasion would instead push you to run and gun as much as possible and reward you by allowing you to shrug off (dodge) bullets. Juggernaut would turn you into a walking fortress; you'd be able to stand and gun things down rambo style but you'd probably struggle to position yourself. Spam casting is for the people who think guns are for plebes and just want to blow stuff up with powers non-stop. And vampirism means you have to kill or die.

 

All of these mods would force you to radically alter the way you play. I think that would be awesome.

 

Don't pay too much attention to the numbers or even the concepts, they're just examples of the kind of things these mods would do.

 

What do you think?

Edited October 5, 2013 by qujokun

[Hayden11121]

I'd like to see these as auras, that you automatically have once you start.

 

I could really see this being implemented, and I'd give a shot of keeping this bumped indiscreetly as much as possible.

 

And maybe "Spam Casting" could be known as "Ability Alteration"

[PenutReaper]

An usual idea, but I like it.

[Aure7]

"Evasion" is like the best thing I've ever heard in the forums.

[Zanukacola]

I'd like to see these as auras, that you automatically have once you start.

 

I could really see this being implemented, and I'd give a shot of keeping this bumped indiscreetly as much as possible.

 

And maybe "Spam Casting" could be known as "Ability Alteration"

 

Yeah, having them in a special slot seems like a good idea, though they're not really team oriented at all so I'm not sure if this would gel with the idea of auras.

[blahdenoma]

If they revamp melee, the evasion mod would be essential for closing the distance against Grineer.

 

No shields though?  That's something only a Rhino could manage...which is ironic, because Rhino would be moving the slowest, making the Evasion the least effective.

 

It'd probably be fine without the shield restriction negative effect.  You only have a few mod slots to begin with, so you'd have to sacrifice something else anyway, just to equip the mod.

[SquirmyBurrito]

With the introduction of new mods like equilibrium and quick thinking, I'm glad to say that the mod pool is finally becoming a little more interesting than just 'gain x% bonus to y stat'. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing big numbers as much as the next guy, but in order to keep things fresh, I think that Warframe could use some even more extreme mod additions.

 

What I mean is that there are very few mods that really alter the way you play Warframe. The vast majority of mods are like Serration or Redirection; they don't change what you do, they just let you do things better. Again, this isn't a bad thing. But I believe that a new class of mods should be created to do the exact opposite. Rather than making your shield 200% stronger, or making your rifle do 100% more damage, I think there needs to be special mods that totally change your playstyle without significantly altering your power level.

 

Allow me to introduce my idea, the Paradigm Mod. This new kind of mod would be exclusively rare, possibly dropped from certain bosses, or even crafted in the foundry. I know, the game has too much RNG already, but the point is that these mods are 1) Hard to get and 2) Obtainable through clearly defined objectives. This is to ensure that these mods are something that players can intentionally seek out and obtain in order to change their playstyles, rather than something that you just get at random.

 

The paradigm mod would have a single level and could fit under any of the existing polarities. This would also include the = (ability) polarity, as some Paradigm Mods could act as a replacement ability, taking the number key of one of the frame's abilities. The overarching theme of Paradigm Mods is great power at great cost. Accordingly, you can only equip one at a time. These are mods that will allow you to do something cool or unusual, but they're gonna severely impact your ability to perform certain functions. But let me cut to some examples to better illustrate my idea. (Not necessarily all original ideas, but potential implementations within what I'm suggesting)

 

Grappling Hook

Polarity: =

+You have a grappling hook; one of your abilities allows you to shoot out a hook which attaches to the first thing it hits and pulls you to it. This costs a very small amount of energy. (5?)

-You can't sprint.

 

Spam Casting (Needs a better name)

+Your ability animations play twice as fast and cost half as much.

-All weapons deal half damage.

 

Vampirism (Kinda like the nightmare mode)

+You regain health equal to X% of the damage you deal.

-You constantly bleed health.

 

Evasion

+You have a chance to totally ignore damage based on how fast you're moving, further increased based on how long you've been moving for (Increased by sprinting, increased even more by long wallruns, etc)

-You have no shield.

 

Juggernaut

+You take half damage from everything when you're standing still.

-You lose 70% of your stamina.

 

Grappling hook would force you to move around by hooking onto things rather than sprinting or parkouring, which would open up totally new ways to navigate a map. Evasion would instead push you to run and gun as much as possible and reward you by allowing you to shrug off (dodge) bullets. Juggernaut would turn you into a walking fortress; you'd be able to stand and gun things down rambo style but you'd probably struggle to position yourself. Spam casting is for the people who think guns are for plebes and just want to blow stuff up with powers non-stop. And vampirism means you have to kill or die.

 

All of these mods would force you to radically alter the way you play. I think that would be awesome.

 

Don't pay too much attention to the numbers or even the concepts, they're just examples of the kind of things these mods would do.

 

What do you think?

 

I really like this idea. I'm all for anything that adds uniqueness to the game. As it stands everyone's late-game frame builds are practically the same.

[blahdenoma]

Well, to be fair, the late-game builds are all pretty much the same because there are only a few late-game problems.

 

Mods are intended to solve problems.

 

Making more mods without addressing specific problems is pointless.

 

What the late game needs, if you want more diverse late-game warframe loadouts, is more different types of problems.  As it stands, the only problems are "there are too many mobs," "I can't kill the mobs fast enough," and "the mobs kill me too fast."

 

So you have tankiness loadouts, DPS loadouts, and CC loadouts.

 

The problem with increasing the diversity of problems is that a) it's annoying to change your frame/weapon loadout and b) in public matches, you can't plan ahead with people to make sure every potential problem is solved by a particular player's loadout.  If you increased the variety of problems that could crop up, what you would have is people frustrated that they don't have a Loki or whatever in the squad, because now there's this thing that only Loki can manage effectively, and the squad loses the match...etc. etc.

[CelsiusPrime]

I like those but they seems to change things too much to just be a mod in a mod slot. To be fair I would love to have these but Idk how to apply it to the warframe.

[ayliax]

I thought they already announced grappling hooks? Is it still confirmed, or did they cancel the idea?

[CelsiusPrime]

I thought they already announced grappling hooks? Is it still confirmed, or did they cancel the idea?

 

in limbo

[Chaosrain]

I play Thrak Rhino, so Juggernaut would likely make no difference to me, but with a massive benefit.

[Hayden11121]

I play Thrak Rhino, so Juggernaut would likely make no difference to me, but with a massive benefit.

But it makes your playstyle stand out further from those Vanguard Sprinter Rhinos.

 

See how that could positively affect playstyles?

[AGENTSJ24]

 

 

Evasion

+You have a chance to totally ignore damage based on how fast you're moving, further increased based on how long you've been moving for (Increased by sprinting, increased even more by long wallruns, etc)

-You have no shield.

 

I luv dis.

[noneuklid]

I do see the cool factor of the idea.  But

 

All of these mods would force you to radically alter the way you play.

 

isn't true.

 

Nightmare Mode forces you to alter how you play; the mods you've suggested primarily let someone specialize in a style they're already using.  I won't nitpick about the balance, but most of the ideas proposed (if tweaked into viable numbers) let you stop doing something -- like worrying about damage if you're standing still in the open.  People who like mobile gameplay simply won't equip a mod like that... it'll be used by people who prefer to stop'n'shoot.

 

And I don't mean this is something specific to the ideas you've suggested.  Anything within this conceptual space (bad at X, good at Y) is essentially a minmaxing tool as long as it's under player control.  What really makes an idea like this fly is if players are forced or rewarded for engaging in behavior that deviates from their usual style.

 

I'm not saying minmaxing is always bad, nor am I saying that this is something that absolutely should never be tried.  But I do think there's a lot more power creep inherent in this idea than you've really addressed.

Edited October 4, 2013 by noneuklid

[Exinanite]

Signed for Vampirism.

[Zanukacola]

I do see the cool factor of the idea.  But

 

 

isn't true.

 

Nightmare Mode forces you to alter how you play; the mods you've suggested primarily let someone specialize in a style they're already using.  I won't nitpick about the balance, but most of the ideas proposed (if tweaked into viable numbers) let you stop doing something -- like worrying about damage if you're standing still in the open.  People who like mobile gameplay simply won't equip a mod like that... it'll be used by people who prefer to stop'n'shoot.

 

And I don't mean this is something specific to the ideas you've suggested.  Anything within this conceptual space (bad at X, good at Y) is essentially a minmaxing tool as long as it's under player control.  What really makes an idea like this fly is if players are forced or rewarded for engaging in behavior that deviates from their usual style.

 

I'm not saying minmaxing is always bad, nor am I saying that this is something that absolutely should never be tried.  But I do think there's a lot more power creep inherent in this idea than you've really addressed.

 

In retrospect my concept mods may not be perfectly suited to what I have in mind, but I think 'evasion' best highlights what I'm trying to achieve. Your defenses are compromised by the loss of your shields but you are offered a method to completely offset that by remaining constantly in motion.

 

This constitutes a radically different playstyle because unless you're god's gift to FPS games, this is going to make it harder for you to hit your targets. Thus, within the standard warframe playstyle trying to 'run and gun' is actually a bad idea under many circumstances. This is most egregious against the grineer, whose hitscan weapons will hit you regardless of anything other than cover.

 

Equipping 'evasion' forces you to rethink the way you play; suddenly standing and fighting simply won't work and movement becomes your primary defense.

 

I definitely agree with the minimaxing concern, though in my opinion creating potentially more diverse playstyles even at the expense of raising the power level of players in the endgame is not necessarily a bad thing. But this is the reason why I stress that the penalties need to be severe, to make sure that frames using paradigms aren't going to be specialized in a way that allows them to negate or avoid the weaknesses. Not having a shield or not being able to sprint I believe falls into that category of penalties that are impossible to fully negate.

 

On the other hand, I think that if this were to implemented, the emphasis would be on effects that expand gameplay in dimensions separate from pure combat efficiency. Having a grappling hook, for instance, would do little to break endgame content or powercreep the game.

 

 

Well, to be fair, the late-game builds are all pretty much the same because there are only a few late-game problems.

 

Mods are intended to solve problems.

 

Making more mods without addressing specific problems is pointless.

 

What the late game needs, if you want more diverse late-game warframe loadouts, is more different types of problems.  As it stands, the only problems are "there are too many mobs," "I can't kill the mobs fast enough," and "the mobs kill me too fast."

 

So you have tankiness loadouts, DPS loadouts, and CC loadouts.

 

The problem with increasing the diversity of problems is that a) it's annoying to change your frame/weapon loadout and b) in public matches, you can't plan ahead with people to make sure every potential problem is solved by a particular player's loadout.  If you increased the variety of problems that could crop up, what you would have is people frustrated that they don't have a Loki or whatever in the squad, because now there's this thing that only Loki can manage effectively, and the squad loses the match...etc. etc.

 

 

These mods wouldn't be intended to solve problems, but rather to change the way we address the problems that already exist.

The most basic problem of all is "How do I not die?"

 

With vampire, the answer is "by constantly dealing damage". You're prolly gonna want a high dps weapon to keep you alive.

 

With evasion, the answer is "by parkouring". Maybe stamina mods will finally have some purpose.

 

With juggernaut, the answer is "by standing totally still". That idea in particular probably needs some balancing simply because reduced stamina doesn't offer a compelling counterpoint to huge damage reduction. Maybe a reduction to walk speed? I'm imagining a frame that struggles to even get around the map (and will probably need a maxed out rush just to keep up with even slower frames) but can stand his ground against overwhelming odds...

 

I digress. The point is to diversify the answers to the questions we already have, rather than answering questions that don't yet exist.

 

 

If they revamp melee, the evasion mod would be essential for closing the distance against Grineer.

 

No shields though?  That's something only a Rhino could manage...which is ironic, because Rhino would be moving the slowest, making the Evasion the least effective.

 

It'd probably be fine without the shield restriction negative effect.  You only have a few mod slots to begin with, so you'd have to sacrifice something else anyway, just to equip the mod.

 

 

The opportunity cost of equipping a mod that (ideally) doesn't alter your power level is certainly problematic. I'm worried, however, that bundling a request for a new mod slot into my suggestion goes a little beyond the scope of my idea and would have far reaching implications. In addition, that would create the impression that paradigms are somehow 'necessary' as a part of a build. Rather, they represent specializations into certain alternative playstyles for players that have worn out typical game content and want to approach warframe in a new way and not a new dimension along which warframes can become more powerful.

Edited October 4, 2013 by qujokun

[blahdenoma]

Fair enough point about alternative solutions to the standard problems.

 

I'm not sure your squad members will be terribly thrilled about you parkouring around the room dodging lasers during a T3 Defense, while they're huddled inside the snowglobe spamming their 4's, though.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Well, to be fair, the late-game builds are all pretty much the same because there are only a few late-game problems.

 

Mods are intended to solve problems.

 

Making more mods without addressing specific problems is pointless.

 

What the late game needs, if you want more diverse late-game warframe loadouts, is more different types of problems.  As it stands, the only problems are "there are too many mobs," "I can't kill the mobs fast enough," and "the mobs kill me too fast."

 

So you have tankiness loadouts, DPS loadouts, and CC loadouts.

 

The problem with increasing the diversity of problems is that a) it's annoying to change your frame/weapon loadout and b) in public matches, you can't plan ahead with people to make sure every potential problem is solved by a particular player's loadout.  If you increased the variety of problems that could crop up, what you would have is people frustrated that they don't have a Loki or whatever in the squad, because now there's this thing that only Loki can manage effectively, and the squad loses the match...etc. etc.

 

You could always just create more ways to solve one problem. There need not only be three ways to solve one problem.

[Zanukacola]

Fair enough point about alternative solutions to the standard problems.

 

I'm not sure your squad members will be terribly thrilled about you parkouring around the room dodging lasers during a T3 Defense, while they're huddled inside the snowglobe spamming their 4's, though.

 

Yeah, alternative playstyle might be detrimental to teamplay, particularly in modes that are somewhat inflexible like defense. Thats probably okay though, nothing is forcing players to use the same paradigm across every mission type. I often change my mod loadouts before doing t3 defense and this would be no different.

[LukeAura]

The only problem I see with the evasion mod is that knockdown = 100% chance of death. 
And a single staggering blow too. 
So you will get slaughtered by infested, grineer, shockwave MOAs. 
Unless it will allow you to avoid radial blasts, and shockwaves too. 

[Unrelenting]

If they revamp melee, the evasion mod would be essential for closing the distance against Grineer.

 

No shields though?  That's something only a Rhino could manage...which is ironic, because Rhino would be moving the slowest, making the Evasion the least effective.

 

It'd probably be fine without the shield restriction negative effect.  You only have a few mod slots to begin with, so you'd have to sacrifice something else anyway, just to equip the mod.

 actually rhino would benefit the most being able to do even quicker speedruns, with his helmet he's almost as fast as loki. Who cares about shields? stack hp/regen aura and just wallrun through content... enemies dont have good accuracy anyway.

[Bennyworld]

Yes - I do think the the mod system would benefit from a larger range of more interesting and not so 'conventional' changes.

I really like the 'Vampirism' one - sounds awesome .

[luanle21]

anything that isnt a bandage mod

[Zanukacola]

I don't want to get caught up in the details of the examples; I'd mostly like to push for the idea of mods offering powerful and unique benefits at a steep cost, and mods that force you to alter the way you play or add interesting effects to the game. Another good example of a mod that already does this (in my mind) is Rage, which under some conditions encourages you to take health damage as opposed to taking cover after you run out of shield.

 

Anyways, if you like the thought feel free to throw in some more ideas for examples. After all the more this gets blabbed about the more likely it is that a DE will take notice.