Grinding: Lets Make It Diverse, Exciting And Fun.

[Gekker]

If you don't want to read everything I suggest skipping to the Solution?! part but I recommend reading everything :)

 

 

Introduction

So I finally found some motivation to start a discussion I have been thinking about for a long time now.

With this topic I hope to increase the quality of gameplay a lot and help out those that are burned out.

Please bear with me while reading my wall of text (I am german so I hope you are not scared of grammar errors and stuff :P).

 

I would like to focus on "Grinding" which I think is the core gameplay of Warframe and needs to get improved.

Thinking about a rework would be a good idea as well. But first lets start with a short analysis.

 

 

Now many people are already biased on this topic. Almost the whole community agrees that there is too much grinding in this game and that the focus should be somewhere else.
But recently I started thinking: What if grinding as a core gameplay element is a good thing but Warframe just does a bad job offering grinding opportunities?

Let me be a little more precise.

 

 

Grinding in Warframe
Everything in warframe is craftable. We wander around in tiles. We find crates and kill enemies and we gain experience and loot while we do so.
Warframe players wanna progress. No one wants to keep playing as a unranked Excalibur with a Skana, Lato and MK-1 Braton.
For that we need loot. So we play. We grind.

What do we grind?
- Experience
- Ressources
- Mods
- Blueprints
- Parts

Where do we grind it?
- Killing enemies / bosses
- Looting containers or crates
- Completing missions

 

I make this simple and say Blueprints and parts are one time acquisitions. I know that people tend to repeat the same missions 50 times in a row in order to get a specific item (I can proudly say that I collected every blueprint and part in this game) but experience, mods and ressources are what we need from day one until we have plenty of everything. We have lots of content to craft and we get more and more content every few weeks so we never run out of need to farm those 3 things.

As soon Warframe players got to know the game they try to figure out the most effective way to grind. They ask themself:

 

How do we do it? Killing enemies of cause!

They offer experience, mods and ressources. Great!

 

Where do we do that? In defense, mobile defense and survival missions!

Because enemies spawn there without a brake and charge the player / objective.

 

Now I ask you:
But what do we do there? Kill enemies. Thats it. And this is the exhausing part.

 

 

 

Our enemies
The AI is simple and they just charge players in an endless stream in form of bullet sponges as soon the player got discovered. (Yes, I am hoping this part gets improved someday :D)
We do 5-25 waves of defense, survive for 5-25minutes or hack 1-3 terminals. And all while doing the repetetive work of shooting the endless stream of bullet sponges.

This game never offers the player other opportunities to grind. And this is a huge problem and should get addressed!

 

"But wait" you might say. "We can grind while looting crates and containers!".
Then I say "No". Because its extremely inefficient. And in fact efficiency is extreamly important when you hit the 100h mark or so. I think we can all agree on that.

Why is it inefficient? Because in most cases we have to leave the objective's path to explore the map in order to maybe find loot-rooms that may have unlocked containers and crates that may have loot and only 100xp for your warframe (maybe). Sometimes I leave the path to the objective just to find an empty room with locked containers and no crates. Bummer!

 

You see where I am going.

Grinding apart form killing enemies is an inefficient, unsecure way. This is bad game design in my opinion.

Killing enemies all the time is boring and exhausting. We need diversity!
 

 

 

Solution?!
There are many ways to create grinding opportunities and its up to DE(Scott) to create those!
I have a few suggestions. Maybe someone likes them.

 

1. Create reliable and lots of loot rooms in maps.
Encourage players to explore the tiles and reward them for doing so.

Not only should those loot rooms have a minimum amount of unlocked containers and crates (How about 5-20 of those?). But those crates and containers should also give you a reliable source for ressources and EXPERIENCE! 100xp or your Warframe is a joke!

Give us 1000+ that splits up for every gear. So 250xp for your Warframe, Primary, Secondary and Melee weapon.

Experiement with new kinds of crates that give the playe mods!

Reuse the retired Raid Orokin Artifact container and place 1-3 of them in each map so players have a motivation to explore and do something else apart from killing bullet sponges.

 

2. Lore data logs to collect.
Why stop encouraging playes to explore maps with ressoruce, mods and experience rewards? You have a vast universe to create lore around it. Hire a story writer and deliver that story with datapads (text-based like science articles and newspapers but also voice recordings).

The heck. Make data logs unique! Use the players information (clan, weapons, warframe colors and recent games) to write reports of scared Corpus Crewmen describing ghost stories about Tennos looting their ships and killing their friends!

Make us players a part of this lore and the vast universe like you do it with Boss taunts.

Of cause we need a codex or something in the player profile that you can always go to. We still have the "lore" section that hasn't been touched yet!

 

3. Side quests / alternative quests.
I am not talking about "kill 30 enemies blah, blah and I give you 500 Warframe xp".

I am talking about secondary missions that do not appear after you completed your main missions.

Give your player two objectives at the same time (blue and orange?) and let them evaluate the situation. Give them a decision to make with different rewards. You guys have to get a little creative here but I know you can do this :)

 

4. Stealth!
Stealth is not only incomplete but its actually counterproductive when the player wants to gain experience and loot.

After completing the stealth mechanic. Increase experience gained from stealth kills (10 times?) and make them drop ressources and/or mods every time!

 

And don't make it so that as soon you get caught every enemy on that map spawn in masses and start charging you. Create rooms where the enemy is still unaware even though you got caught before (maybe make those room's security system broken and a few enemies attempt to repair it. Infested don't have a security system so thats a lot easier to execute).

Stealth was a great idea! You create diversity and players feel like a true ninja. Don't waste that potential DE :(

 

 

What is important is that these opportunities you offer your players have to be more rewarding than killing the endless sponge streams of boringness. Make your players say "Yay! A seconary missions with a rare / generous reward!" or "Lets go explore this map and find every secret it has. I don't want to miss a thing." or "Damn you Yuikami / Darkscars / Armor / Erebus / Shakara / Retty / Fishy! You alerted the enemies with your clumsiness!!!".

Make us embrace different opportunities to grind and ultimately to play this game!

 

 

Thanks for reading!
Maybe I will think about more suggestions later. I am sure our community can think about a lot more than I did :)

If you agree with me help me out here :)

[Aure7]

I've discussed a lot about this in my topic which was ignored here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64514-suggestions-for-alert-gameplay-and-upcoming-mission-overhauls-needs-devs-attention/
 

I've said there that basically there should be higher risk situations in which higher risk means more reward and the amount of loot would depend on your stealth and parkour skills. (something else rather than just clearing rooms of enemies and rushing)

Edited October 6, 2013 by Aure7

[Gekker]

I've discussed a lot about this in my topic which was ignored here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/64514-suggestions-for-alert-gameplay-and-upcoming-mission-overhauls-needs-devs-attention/

 

Great! I already see a few similarities. I will read the whole post later.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Gekker

[Gryphticon]

I would actually play alot more of Warframe if they add what you mentioned in your thread.

[toxictangent]

Secondary objectives? Hell yes. The tileset might be a bit big though, and having your little cell of 4 tenno scattered to the far corners of the map might not be such a good thing though...

Because what if a surprise squad of elite lancers backed up by a bombard shows up around the next corner, and your team mates are miles away finding a loot room? Uh oh. But yeah, a little communication goes a long way too.

Ooh, but what if you had 'command posts' if you like, and these would be areas near enemy spawns that could be 'captured' by being there long enough, and once you've got it you've basically secured that area?

Granted, the maps are huge and that means that there's a lot of moving around. But I thought it seemed like a fun alternative to just that singular objective we all have.

 

Sorry for wall of text :P

[Gekker]

Secondary objectives? Hell yes. The tileset might be a bit big though, and having your little cell of 4 tenno scattered to the far corners of the map might not be such a good thing though...

Because what if a surprise squad of elite lancers backed up by a bombard shows up around the next corner, and your team mates are miles away finding a loot room? Uh oh. But yeah, a little communication goes a long way too.

Ooh, but what if you had 'command posts' if you like, and these would be areas near enemy spawns that could be 'captured' by being there long enough, and once you've got it you've basically secured that area?

Granted, the maps are huge and that means that there's a lot of moving around. But I thought it seemed like a fun alternative to just that singular objective we all have.

 

Sorry for wall of text :P

 

Don't apologize! I really hope to create a huge discussion around that topic.

I think I gonna send Scott, Steve and Sheldon a message to join our discussion when we get some more opinions.

 

I like your thoughts. I hope those are the thoughts of the players when they have to make those decisions themself :)

[LittleReshiram]

I'm the type of guy who likes reading, especially those never-seems-to-grow lore. It just such a hangover it actually a very good creativity fuel.

BUT! There is a problem if you want to put a player name into a report or something.

While the usual 'edgy' story, like, "..a group of Tenno obliterate this station, requestin-OH JESUS ONE OF THEM SLICED MY LEGS OH GOD NO OH GOD AAAAAA!!!!" is much more acceptable widely, it IS kinda boring.
But when you put your own name in one of it..well.. It sounds REALLY off. Especially when said survivor ABLE to describe his/her attacker into such a detailed manner, INCLUDING the name.

I mean, sure some of the bosses taunt at us like they're the Big Men on Campus, but, they also, basically, hacked into our HUD. in which why they know our name. Normal troops don't.

How much chances a scientist who are devastated after seeing his/her friends got butchered like lambs KNOW about the murderers' names? Not much.

Maybe, just maybe, they know the name of the frames (Excalibur, and such). But not the Tenno in it.

But I do like it to read more lores, tho. Love the idea for adding more lore.

Problematic in placement because the maps are always changing, and finding a data-log without any real reward to sweeten the ordeal is really...boring, and stupid.

Maybe add EXP bonus, so it will worth our while.

Or maybe those data-logs will be a permanent addition to the lore section of our profile. With MORE moving background image! <3
Oh yes, more moving shot of my Ember butchering Corpuses while one of them writing on their last report, yes. <3

[alocrius]

The community has been suggesting all these things for months.  The devs aren't going to add any complexity/diversity to the game because the model they have is making them money.  They haven't admitted it and they won't, but they aren't going to take any risks with the game design, that much is obvious.  They have been playing it stupid safe update after update with no risks taken in improving the gameplay experience.  Despite the community constantly asking/suggesting gameplay improvements.  They believe they are safeguarding their wallets but they are driving people away with their nearsighted game design.  

[Gekker]

The community has been suggesting all these things for months.  The devs aren't going to add any complexity/diversity to the game because the model they have is making them money.  They haven't admitted it and they won't, but they aren't going to take any risks with the game design, that much is obvious.  They have been playing it stupid safe update after update with no risks taken in improving the gameplay experience.  Despite the community constantly asking/suggesting gameplay improvements.  They believe they are safeguarding their wallets but they are driving people away with their nearsighted game design.  

I think you will have to explain that a little because its not that obvious to me.

 

How does keeping the game repetitive and bore the heck out of your players instead of diverse make them money?

 

Maybe it was the last part where I stated "opportunities you offer your players have to be more rewarding than killing the endless sponge streams of boringness" that could make you think that our suggestions make them lose money.

But we could archieve our goal when reducing the amount of loot we gain through defeating enemies and move that amount to other loot opportunities instead.

[r0ckwolf]

As i already said in my Thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/116797-an-open-letter-to-de-steve/page-2, i like this very much! Especially the part about secondary objectives. :)

[Dreykan]

Secondary objectives? Alternate paths? Moar secrets?

 

 

 

About the lore, what if we have an optional solo mission (or you can go with another tenno, but just one), specificaly to gather lore pieces, and such?

Nothing too much fast-paced, just a mission where you can explore your past and find answers. Maybe it can be even a stealth mission?

 

Sorry for the bad english :P

[Gekker]

Secondary objectives? Alternate paths? Moar secrets?

 

 

 

About the lore, what if we have an optional solo mission (or you can go with another tenno, but just one), specificaly to gather lore pieces, and such?

Nothing too much fast-paced, just a mission where you can explore your past and find answers. Maybe it can be even a stealth mission?

 

Sorry for the bad english :P

Your english is fine :)

 

I would love to explore more about the past of the Tenno but I think a solo mission would not be the right way to improve a coop game.

[Dreykan]

Your english is fine :)

 

I would love to explore more about the past of the Tenno but I think a solo mission would not be the right way to improve a coop game.

You got a point there...

 

But, i love to discover and figure things/story by myself (;w;)

[http404error]

Completely brilliant! Looting should be fun and rewarding.

 

XP needs a lot of improvements; you touched upon some of the issues, but that's probably something to expand elsewhere.

[elleto]

I think you will have to explain that a little because its not that obvious to me.

 

How does keeping the game repetitive and bore the heck out of your players instead of diverse make them money?

 

Maybe it was the last part where I stated "opportunities you offer your players have to be more rewarding than killing the endless sponge streams of boringness" that could make you think that our suggestions make them lose money.

But we could archieve our goal when reducing the amount of loot we gain through defeating enemies and move that amount to other loot opportunities instead.

well I guess that's because if u bore the hack out of your players then they well go to the plat market and that makes the DE dough?

[LittleReshiram]

Oh, speaking of which, DE DID mentioned about "Story Mission." Which is like a solo mission, with scenarios and such.

Maybe they SHOULD add more lore into said missions, and it will also eliminate the "random map generation equals to problematic data-log spawn" problem which I said above.

[awolin]

These are such awesome ideas! I think the whole reward system is broken, how you get experience, how you get mods, credits and resources. There are so many ways to reward the player for things other than the mini challenges in game. Which sometimes make no sense. I've gotten challenges to kill unaware enemies in game mods like survival and defense....  But anyway I do think giving players more incentive to explore the awesome tiles, looking for loot and extra side missions for different and random rewards would be more fun and diversify the experience of killing hoards of enemies. I'd definitely put many more hours if something like this would be implemented.  

[Euxantheus]

If these ideas were implemented, they would actually make the game much more interesting. 

[http404error]

This is the best time to talk about the rewards system, since it's now one of the most glaring problems. I suppose it's a credit to DE that most of the more severe and pressing issues have been addressed, but I digress.

 

Enemy affinity grants are hideously unbalanced. Ancients and Techs don't give enough, Shockwaves give too much, etc. Affinity also needs to scale more per level. Add to that affinity orbs and challenges all going towards frame only and unused affinity being lost.

 

Affinity, why do you have so many problems? :(

[blahdenoma]

Unused affinity isn't "lost," it's recorded in your player stats as frame or weapon exp.

 

Excess affinity over rank 30 isn't terribly -useful- at the moment, but it doesn't disappear.

[Neo3602]

Great Idea Op if I hade to pick one of you suggestions I would go with the datalog one maybe have it so that each level ission has x amount of data longs that could spawn on it(have it so that after you find a data long it won't spawn again and the info would be added to the lore tab) and I would probably go and play every mission from the first one on words epically for the Tenno horror stories told by the Corpus/Grineer I think that this would b a great way to add lore to the game, maybe  have lore about the orkin  and how stuff was before the Collapse be in the void mission and each mission type would have data logs that could be found but not in those random rooms that you can see on the map but for what ever reason can never get to

[http404error]

Unused affinity isn't "lost," it's recorded in your player stats as frame or weapon exp.

 

Excess affinity over rank 30 isn't terribly -useful- at the moment, but it doesn't disappear.

 

Ah yes, I just use those metrics to gauge how much I use various equipment, and I suspect the game does as well. I wish there were another meter of how long you've owned something, so you could adjust for it. But really, the tracking is the only reason for it to stay as it is currently.

 

What would you use it for? Distill Affinity Crystals from it? I'd rather it be redistributed among eligible recipients (such that if you kill an enemy while wearing a maxed frame, the weapon gets it all, for example).

[Gekker]

I thought I quote myself because it hope this may motivate DE to explore the addition of more grinding opportunities.

Its something I posted on a thread on General Discussion that made me open this thread.

This thread here

 

[...]

 

But I think that DE is having a hard time right now. They are trying to focus on community demands and I don't blame them for doing so.

This way of designing a game is getting more and more popular. Planetside 2's Roadmap, Kickstarter (Star Citizen) and the community overall is always satisfied when they see that their designs have been recognised. The players are the ones who play the game in the end and they usualy know best what they want to play.

Community mods were the life of games in the past before microtransactions and content updates where possible.

 

 

But Its not that easy.

 

 

Sometimes I think a developer has to step away from all this and reevaluate. What do they want to deliver? They are the artists and they can't promote enjoyment, fun and excitement in their customers when they just deliver what is requested and expected from them.

Warframe became so successful due to the fact it was NOT another modern military game. DE went against the current trend and created their own style and delivered what no one expected. They succeeded :)

 

Side Note here:

Call of Duty Modern Warfare XY is not going to get the game industry anywhere. MW1 did, but releasing slightly adjusted copys one after another is poison!

As far as I know, fun is the human interpretation of learning. When we exlore and satisfy our curiosity we start to enjoy.

The reason school is no fun is because we have no choice. We get told what we have to learn. We do not get curious about topics that way. And school hasn't changed for over a century.

Games are fun because we choose to play them.

Maybe you all remember the excitement we all had in the first few hours of playing Warframe. I believe that is what got us all so hooked :)

 

 

I am not saying DE should ignore the community. I am just saying that at a great portion of new content in this game has to be something unexpected and exciting. Something that no one thought about before or maybe something only a minority requested *hint, hint* :)

 

Armor 2.0 and Trading are high demands but I am not expecting too much out of that tbh.

What I think has great potential are the mission reworks. Survival was a great addition and I already regret that I said I would miss Raid :)

 

But like I said. In the end players will look for opportunities to grind in the most efficient way. And if killing endless streams of enemies stays the most effective way for grinding we will keep on doing excately that. For eternity until more and more players get burned out and leave.

 

[notionphil]

OP, great ideas; however these are ideas that many have independently come up with and shared on Warframe forums.

 

Deeper gameplay - Secondary optional objectives, mini bosses, quests mechanics, reasons to explore, etc...has been proposed dozens of times.  The need for these sorts of activities in the game is SO obvious that it's painful.

 

I'm not saying this to discredit or devalue your ideas; we desperately need more to do in this game. However, DE doesn't seem to be receptive to community requests for these logical additions to the game. Even when these sorts of threads get to 100s of upvotes, getting even a brief DE reply of 'oh that's kinda like this other thing we were maybe gonna do someday' is rare.

 

Not sure what my suggestion is here...I guess, make a lot of noise and maybe things will change?

 

:\

[Gekker]

OP, great ideas; however these are ideas that many have independently come up with and shared on Warframe forums.

 

Deeper gameplay - Secondary optional objectives, mini bosses, quests mechanics, reasons to explore, etc...has been proposed dozens of times.  The need for these sorts of activities in the game is SO obvious that it's painful.

 

I'm not saying this to discredit or devalue your ideas; we desperately need more to do in this game. However, DE doesn't seem to be receptive to community requests for these logical additions to the game. Even when these sorts of threads get to 100s of upvotes, getting even a brief DE reply of 'oh that's kinda like this other thing we were maybe gonna do someday' is rare.

 

Not sure what my suggestion is here...I guess, make a lot of noise and maybe things will change?

 

:\

I am somewhat aware of that. But thanks for pointing that out.

Surely, many suggestions have been suggested elsewhere already. I am not trying to take credits here.

 

What I am trying to accomblish here is to give valid reasoning with this. I tryed myself on some analysis, trying to understand the way we play the game right now, identify a problem with that and present solutions to fix that problem.

 

This is what I was able to comprehend so far. With a little more insight my opinion may change. In the best case I am presenting a problem that yet is being underestimated and maybe it makes sense for someone working on the game or someone that has actual influence on the development of the game. In the worst case someone points out an aspect I have overlooked and this topic can rest.