Balance - Armor 2.0 Must Be Flat

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Furax. Think back, way back, to the days of the Furax. The days before the Soma and Swraith, before the Despair, the Acrid. Think back to the days of the Furax. Even back then when the highest level enemies in the game were low by current standards and Grineer levels hit something like 30 at max. The Furax, despite its short range was regarded as a very powerful weapon and the go-to melee by many players. Why? It ignored armor.

What about the Boltor? When it was added and used the Burston model, we found out that it too ignored armor. It became dominant as well. The Fragor? Same story. That which ignored armor became a go-to weapon. It became the weapon of the time.

Fast forward. Despair, Hikou, Kunai, and Acrid. The Four Kings of Destruction arrived and with their arrival, enemies fell. They fell in sheer terror of the power of these weapons, boasting both armor ignore and high DPS. Around this time, enemy levels skyrocketed. The waning power of other weapons that could not adapt only added to the kingdoms of the Four and the greatest of these, Despair and Acrid, downed entire legions of foes with impunity.

Now, in recent memory, Three champions have come to the forefront: Soma, Swraith, and Galatine. They aligned themselves with the Four and now are together an unstoppable machine, destroying all in their path, leaving razed earth in their wake.

There is one thing that all of these weapons has in common: stupendous armor-ignoring damage. The more powerful the foe, the greater the difference between themselves and their comrades Supra and Braton Prime, let alone those lesser weapons. The Four had their base damage ignore armor. Soma, Swraith, and Galatine all are modded for very heavy AI damage, exceeding even the Flux.

This is why Armor 2.0 must occur. Enemy levels are so stupendously high that the error of exponential* armor is revealed in all its disgusting wretchedness. In the days of the Boltor, one could still argue for use of the Braton. Levels hadn't flown through the roof like an exploding water heater yet. Armor 2.0 must take this into account.

Exponential* armor will break. Inevitably, regardless of anything else, there will come a time, a level at which the curve will flatten as it reaches ever skyward and the slope becomes so steep that no weapon can hope to climb it. The Four needn't even concern themselves with the existence of the curve. Neither do the Three. What must be done?

Armor must flatten. I don't just mean become linear. Even linear would see the dominance of the Four and the Three. To dethrone the Four and finally bring the Three to their knees, armor must become constant across levels. a Level 1 Lancer must have the same armor as a level 60 Lancer. Armor must be treated like an elemental resistance as it should have been in the beginning.

Armor must be separated from elemental resistances and become one of them.

Fire - Fire Resistance
Freeze - Freeze Resistance
Electricity - Electricity Resistance
Poison - Poison Resistance

Armor must join their ranks. Armor must become the resistance to Bullet damage and Bullet alone. Every element must have its own resistance. These cannot be allowed to interact with each other, nor may they be permitted to grow with level. They must be constant from level 1 to 10,000.

Only health, shields, and damage may scale with level.

Such a drastic change is required. The invariability caused by the exponential* growth of armor results in a massively reduced pool of viable weapons. Armor must become constant or there will not be variation.

If such a change were enacted, what would occur? Overnight, the meta would change entirely. AI weaponry would become the weapons for use against heavily armored targets while most players would carry standard arms for ordinary targets. Players would have some choice in what they equipped. It would not be as simple as

Primary: Do you like rifles, shotguns, or snipers? (Soma, Swraith, and Lanka respectively)
Secondary: Are you a Banshee that spams Sonar constantly? (Despair if yes, Acrid otherwise)
Melee: Do you want damage or the ability to zorencopter? (Galatine if damage, Dual Zoren if zorencopter).

With armor being turned constant, we'd finally see variability for reasons other than mastery.


Why do I say this? We all know Armor 2.0 is getting overhauled and with it the elemental system in general. Notionphil has made some great points about the issues surrounding the crit nature of elements, but here I would just like to note that armor must be flattened or Armor 2.0 will do nothing to the meta. As long as it scales with level, AI weaponry will remain dominant from some level onward. It must become flat.

 

*Exponential here meaning n^1.4.  Technically this is not an exponential growth curve (which would be k^n) as it is sub-quadratic.  I use the terminology I do here as I feel it would be more clear to label something "exponential" rather than "sub-quadratic" for the average reader.  I am completely open to changing this if I find this assumption to be false.

 

EDIT: I'm not suggesting we turn all enemies into health-based damage sponges (though, honestly, even if I was, it would still probably be better than the current state of affairs for the vast majority of weapons). I am supporting what was said by the devs in the livestream that different enemies within a faction would have different resistances. Unfortunately, they were not terribly clear on how they wanted to make AI less dominant, and so I am posting here pointing out an issue of merely reducing coefficients or the exponent itself or even making them linear: as long as armor grows with level, there will always be a point beyond which AI weaponry dominates.

EDIT 2: Of course I know the Soma doesn't do base damage that ignores armor. It does however have far and away the highest armor-ignoring DPS of any rifle once modded, which is why I mention it and treat it as one.  People keep bringing this up for some reason.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Aure7]

I hate metas, which means I support your idea by all means.

[Hayden11121]

Soma doesn't ignore armor. And every single melee weapon when charged deals AP or Armor Ignoring damage, aside from Kogake, and possibly Kestrel.

 

And why are you even writing this? You know nothing of what armor 2.0 holds, just because you think it needs to be flat, doesn't mean it does.

 

Making a constant armor flattened game doesn't do anything aside from making pure bullet sponges, and making armor ignoring weapons good until you get proper mods.

 

You literally wrote an entire page saying this

"Make everything have a flat out resistance, and make them bullet sponges to make up for it"

 

-1 from me.

[11.11.11]

We still don't have Armor 2.0 yet? Tsk tsk DE. What have you been doing these past two to three weeks. 

[Hayden11121]

We still don't have Armor 2.0 yet? Tsk tsk DE. What have you been doing these past two to three weeks. 

Do you really want them to rush this and ruin the core gameplay?

[Inquisitioner]

Do you really want them to rush this and ruin the core gameplay?

 

Exactly, very reason it wasn't included in update 10 as expected.

[Fire_Ashes]

I... I love you for posting this.  It is all so true! +1

[Neruell]

First of all as already said, first wait for changes to see what it will end up being before giving feedback already. Also I guess that DE already understood that there is something wrong with the values, or else they wouldn't have announced the changes in the first place.

 

As for the whole idea, also as already said, changing from insane armor to insane health wouldn't solve the problem and why would you use an armor ignore weapon if everyone would have the same armor which should be low because of new/low level players. Or else, what VALUE do you want it to have. it is not just a matter of "redoing" but a matter of "how" and "what values". 

 

Also there should be way more clearance about the whole system. As of now, you simply don't know any of the values or resistances. Like how you would know what Faction is weak against what. Even that is pointless because now you can simply combine all elementals together for simply MORE damage. It should be more logical than that, yeah like that ignis with frozen ammo.

[WarOverlord]

0_0

     *

     *

Beautiful.....

[Seanjuju]

Orthos Prime is one of the champions.

[pitermurdock]

I think I'll complain (if I have to) when DE release more detailed info about it. For the moment, I have to agree with this dude:

 

 

First of all as already said, first wait for changes to see what it will end up being before giving feedback already. Also I guess that DE already understood that there is something wrong with the values, or else they wouldn't have announced the changes in the first place.

 

As for the whole idea, also as already said, changing from insane armor to insane health wouldn't solve the problem and why would you use an armor ignore weapon if everyone would have the same armor which should be low because of new/low level players. Or else, what VALUE do you want it to have. it is not just a matter of "redoing" but a matter of "how" and "what values". 

 

Also there should be way more clearance about the whole system. As of now, you simply don't know any of the values or resistances. Like how you would know what Faction is weak against what. Even that is pointless because now you can simply combine all elementals together for simply MORE damage. It should be more logical than that, yeah like that ignis with frozen ammo.

 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Soma doesn't ignore armor. And every single melee weapon when charged deals AP or Armor Ignoring damage, aside from Kogake, and possibly Kestrel.

 

And why are you even writing this? You know nothing of what armor 2.0 holds, just because you think it needs to be flat, doesn't mean it does.

 

Making a constant armor flattened game doesn't do anything aside from making pure bullet sponges, and making armor ignoring weapons good until you get proper mods.

 

You literally wrote an entire page saying this

"Make everything have a flat out resistance, and make them bullet sponges to make up for it"

 

-1 from me.

I never said the Soma ignored armor.  But you know what it does do?  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlWVt6vp3-YWdHZJRTBvRTBrNGNrb3dNbEZsc0tZVHc#gid=17  It blows every other rifle, including the Flux, out of the water in terms of armor-ignoring DPS

 

Yes, melee weapons do Serrated Blade in general when charged.

 

Why am I writing it?  Simple: if Armor 2.0 doesn't come with flat resistances on enemies, the meta will not change.  Variability will not increase.  And I'm not turning them into damage sponges as they already are for anything that doesn't deal heavy AI damage.  If anything, I'm encouraging variability by enemy in terms of resistance so that different builds are viable and players can have a choice.

 

Also, I really don't see AI taking hold at lower levels and if it does, that can be addressed a number of ways very easily such as mastery requirements or better yet, making "required" mods easier to acquire for new players.

 

 

 

First of all as already said, first wait for changes to see what it will end up being before giving feedback already. Also I guess that DE already understood that there is something wrong with the values, or else they wouldn't have announced the changes in the first place.

 

As for the whole idea, also as already said, changing from insane armor to insane health wouldn't solve the problem and why would you use an armor ignore weapon if everyone would have the same armor which should be low because of new/low level players. Or else, what VALUE do you want it to have. it is not just a matter of "redoing" but a matter of "how" and "what values". 

 

Also there should be way more clearance about the whole system. As of now, you simply don't know any of the values or resistances. Like how you would know what Faction is weak against what. Even that is pointless because now you can simply combine all elementals together for simply MORE damage. It should be more logical than that, yeah like that ignis with frozen ammo.

 

I am merely giving preventative feedback.  We don't know what it will be, but it will be a massive undertaking and I don't want these issues to be forgotten.  Unless flat resistances happen, there is going to be a point beyond which weapons which deal tons of AI damage will dominate which is not good for variability.

 

I'm not suggesting every enemy have the same armor.  I am supporting what they said in the livestream about different enemies having different resistances and some having armor while others would not.  I apologize if I was unclear on that.  I am not suggesting we get health-based damage sponges either.  I simply want variation in resistances.  And I agree that it will take a ton of time to find new values, but new values will have to happen anyways.

 

I absolutely agree the new system needs to be explained.  The only reason we understand the current system so well is because of the dataminers.

[Paradoxbomb]

I think making armor reduce a set amount of damage is the plan DE has for Armor 2.0, but that doesn't make you wrong and hopefully DE isn't planning on doing otherwise. Also Soma isn't AI, it just has a stupendously high crit chance/damage that helps it hold up late game.

[XSuzumeX]

You should change it to heavy AP damage not AI since its different.That's why you have people saying that you said Soma has armor ignore. 
 

"Now, in recent memory, Three champions have come to the forefront: Soma, Swraith, and Galatine.  They aligned themselves with the Four and now are together an unstoppable machine, destroying all in their path, leaving razed earth in their wake.

 

There is one thing that all of these weapons has in common: stupendous armor-ignoring damage.  The more powerful the foe, the greater the difference between themselves and their comrades Supra and Braton Prime, let alone those lesser weapons.  The Four had their base damage ignore armor. Soma, Swraith, and Galatine all are modded for very  heavy AI damage, exceeding even the Flux. "

Edited October 6, 2013 by XSuzumeX

[Volt_Cruelerz]

You should change it to heavy AP damage not AI since its different.That's why you have people saying that you said Soma has armor ignore.

there are several kinds of armor-ignoring damage.  I'd have to check Pwnatron's list since some of them aren't actually even used, but the most commonly seen ones are

 

Serrated Blade: used on most melee charge attacks plus Lanka, Spectra, and Flux

Physics Impact: used on blunt melee and on bolt ranged weapons

Poison: used on poison weapons

Armor Piercing: the only type of AI damage that can be added via a mod and the base type for Despair and Vandaltron

 

Each has their own properties, but none of them are reduced by armor which is why they collectively are known as armor-ignoring damage.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LukeAura]

I can't wait to hear the epic about the journey through impenetrable snow globe fortresses and antimatter wastelands of death. 

[Parinirvana]

there are several kinds of armor-ignoring damage.  I'd have to check Pwnatron's list since some of them aren't actually even used, but the most commonly seen ones are

 

Serrated Blade: used on most melee charge attacks plus Lanka, Spectra, and Flux

Physics Impact: used on blunt melee and on bolt ranged weapons

Poison: used on poison weapons

Armor Piercing: the only type of AI damage that can be added via a mod and the base type for Despair and Vandaltron

 

Each has their own properties, but none of them are reduced by armor which is why they collectively are known as armor-ignoring damage.

What? I'm pretty sure when I use Soma, shooting at the Infested Ancients does reduced damage except shooting it at the leg, where there is no armor. So Soma does not have any armor ignore properties, armor still reduces Soma's damage.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Hey guys why don't we just give every enemy 10 health, and change the weapon's damage as follows:

Sniper rifles: 9 +1 on headshots
Shotguns: 8 +1 on headshots
Rifles: 4 +1 on headshots
Bows: 9 +1 on headshots
Launchers: 10 -1 per 3 meters from epicenter
Secondaries: 3 +1 on headshots
Melee Light: 3 +1 on headshots
Melee Heavy 8 +1 on headshots

All +1 on crit

Crit chance: 50% for all weapons.

 

Enemy resistances by factions:

Infested: None.
Grineer: None.

Corpus: None.

Enemy weaknesses by factions:

Infested: None. 

Grineer: None.
Corpus: None.

Great idea right? ...hello?

[CaptainohCaptain]

Actually, the one thing I'd like to see is NOT a flat armor and NOT an elemental mods buff in terms of flat damage.

I'd like to see these:

1)Continious fire "overloads" armor, reducing it.

2)Small percentage of damage capped as minimum. (Very small, not higher than 10%)

3)Elemental mods scaling their effects, not damage.

4)Override system to prevent building bloody rainbow on every weapon.

[Boatsniper]

I got deja vu from reading this post.

 

I was even able to predict the meta first post and Hayden's -1.

 

I'm a bit weirded out right now.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

What? I'm pretty sure when I use Soma, shooting at the Infested Ancients does reduced damage except shooting it at the leg, where there is no armor. So Soma does not have any armor ignore properties, armor still reduces Soma's damage.

which is what I said....  ugh...  Soma does bullet damage but does armor piercing damage because of the mod Piercing Hit.  Because of its crit-based DPS, it does more armor-ignoring (armor piercing falls under the umbrella of armor-ignoring) than any other rifle.

 

 

Actually, the one thing I'd like to see is NOT a flat armor and NOT an elemental mods buff in terms of flat damage.

I'd like to see these:

1)Continious fire "overloads" armor, reducing it.

2)Small percentage of damage capped as minimum. (Very small, not higher than 10%)

3)Elemental mods scaling their effects, not damage.

4)Override system to prevent building bloody rainbow on every weapon.

I'd be fine with that being a special effect for, say, laser or something.  Though I was never a fan of it being on all elements.

[rksk16it]

Just a thing : Armor scaling is not exponential, but polynomial.

 

Afaik, armor equation works like this :-

 

total_armor = base_armor * (1 + 0.01*(current_level - base_level)^1.4)

 

So by that equation, armor is a function of "current_level", but not exponential. Its more than linear and less than quadratic. Had it been exponential it would have looked like this :

 

total_armor = some_constant ^ current_level

 

Thats totally different function, rises MUCH MUCH faster and will eventually surpass any polynomial.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Just a thing : Armor scaling is not exponential, but polynomial.

 

Afaik, armor equation works like this :-

total_armor = base_armor * (1 + 0.01*(current_level - base_level)^1.4)

So by that equation, armor is a function of "current_level", but not exponential. Its more than linear and less than quadratic. Had it been exponential it would have looked like this :

total_armor = some_constant ^ current_level

Thats totally different function, rises MUCH MUCH faster and will eventually surpass any polynomial.

The ^1.4 is what I was referring to when I said exponential growth in that there is an exponent involved.

 

Yes, when measuring growth curves, that counts as sub-quadratic.  I'll edit the OP for clarity.

 

EDIT: all mentions of "exponential" in the OP now have a * beside them with an explanation at the bottom.  I hope this is to your satisfaction.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[-Kittens-]

EDIT 2: Of course I know the Soma doesn't do base damage that ignores armor. It does however have far and away the highest armor-ignoring DPS of any rifle once modded, which is why I mention it and treat it as one.  People keep bringing this up for some reason.

 

Synapse, Ignis and ogris would like a word with you out back.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Synapse, Ignis and ogris would like a word with you out back.

Then the numbers would like a word with them: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlWVt6vp3-YWdHZJRTBvRTBrNGNrb3dNbEZsc0tZVHc&usp=drive_web#gid=17

 

And if you're trying to count AoE damage on the Ogris or Ignis, it only actually matters on the Ogris as the Ignis still does low damage.  The Ogris though would have to hit several enemies to make up the gap as the bar shown includes the damage from a direct hit and any nearby enemy will take reduced damage due to radial falloff.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz