I Find Myself Becoming More And More Bitter As The Days Progress

[alphex]

I like the new name. Stops me from frowning.

Sounds more inspiring then sad now.

[Luminati07]

I feel like this is relevant to your edit 15:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/118039-encrypted-drop-tables/

 

Mostly a "discussion" about the new encryption (feel free to pm me to ask to delete it if you feel it's offtopic)

Hmm, I had read about the encrypted drop tables.

I know that DE mentioned (at least, I think I remember) that they wanted more transparency in this department, seems like this is contradictory.

 

On the flipside, DE did say they were thinking about some kind of in-game log that showed what items/mods you've picked up, and where you got them/what enemy dropped it. 

It'd make sense if they encrypted them so this log wouldn't just be nullified by datamined tables.

 

I dunno, I'm partial to both sides at the moment (assuming this "log" actually makes it into the game)

 

That's awesome to hear! :D  Terminus is my I'm sorta bored but still want to play spot atm lol

 

I do hope you stick around though, I think things aren't AS bleak as people like to paint them to be sometimes.  Yes there are legitimate concerns (this thread does a good job of expressing them in an appropriate manner) but I feel like DE is making an effort but is perhaps a bit stretched thin and backed itself into a corner regarding some things which is why they are as they are at the moment.  

Yeah, I hope I'm still around too.

But, I've been pretty busy lately. Working, studying at uni, and doing a traineeship doesn't really leave me a whole lot of time. It basically means I try to limit myself to 1, 2 or 3 games.

Final Fantasy XIV, Battlefield 4 and Warframe at the moment. But, if I'm not enjoying myself in Warframe, well...

 

I'm sticking around now for my clan. Raised it from scratch, and I don't just want to abandon them :P

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Hmm, I had read about the encrypted drop tables.

I know that DE mentioned (at least, I think I remember) that they wanted more transparency in this department, seems like this is contradictory.

 

On the flipside, DE did say they were thinking about some kind of in-game log that showed what items/mods you've picked up, and where you got them/what enemy dropped it. 

It'd make sense if they encrypted them so this log wouldn't just be nullified by datamined tables.

 

I dunno, I'm partial to both sides at the moment (assuming this "log" actually makes it into the game)

If the log makes it in, great, that'd fix a lot of things, but at the same time, dataminers did help fix the forma debacle, and I imagine they'd help with future problems like they did with forma.

[Luminati07]

If the log makes it in, great, that'd fix a lot of things, but at the same time, dataminers did help fix the forma debacle, and I imagine they'd help with future problems like they did with forma.

Yeah, exactly.

 

That's why I'm kind of partial to both sides.

If the log does get implemented, I'd actually prefer to have no released datamining. That way, I can build up my log (which would be quite fun, imo) without it being spoiled.

If DE never releases the log, then the encryption would have caused plenty more harm than good.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Nugget_

[-Aozora-]

so many mods, so little slots...

[Destro6677]

-Been hounding for an Update, Saw an Update, Updated. Logged in, Made 1 of each keys, Logged out-

 

I don't care this is an event or permanent function. I like to participate, so I can have a chance to say, I tried that, I did that.

 

But DE has pushed me to the point of literally saying - No more.

I am fine with grinding, and am fine with RNG itself. But when you put two together, and stack a few layers more on top of that.

Honestly, DE you don't see this as an issue, is probably because you can just enter your dev code and spawn the things yourself. How about honestly testing the game out yourself from a player's perspective.

 

Does it really seem right to you that stacking layers and layers of RNG is seriously fair to players? Are you really that greedy that you have to make the game as tedious as it could get, just to force players to get fed up and buy Platinum to speed up the process?

 

DE, let me ask you this question straight up. Because you don't seem to know where you're trying to go.

 

Are you trying to make a game, to make people happy, to let people have fun?

 

Or

 

Are you trying to make a game, to make people pay money, to earn some money, a living?

 

Or

 

Are you trying to make a game, just to waste people's time, just to get no where, left frustrated, agonized, annoyed?

 

 

Let me tell you something. When I first started, I was very prone to buying Platinum. I almost buy it every chance I got, because I loved this game. But as time goes by, the tediousness of grinding on RNG. And all that utter cow feces, I'm starting to spend less and less. To this state where unless it's a huge discount, I won't touch it. Even when it's a huge discount, I won't even get a decent size package.

 

Yes, DE you have succeed in squeezing around $400 or more out of me. But let me tell you this, as much as I love Warframe. You're probably never getting another dime from me. Until you open up your eyes and get a clear view on where you're going. I hate to tell devs what to do and what not, because clearly - They should know what they're doing. Or else I would be the devs, and they would be the players. But in this case, it doesn't take a genius to notice that you're driving Warframe to the ground.

 

Oh, and I heard somewhere before. Saying all this, is DE testing the community, checking what would enrage the player base and what wouldn't. Well, let me just say this. Only an idiot would think of testing about placing another layer on top of that RNG lasagna and see if it would upset the community.

 

Also, inb4 the inevitable lock.

[Amistyrja]

The feels, they're killing me

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Yeah, exactly.

 

That's why I'm kind of partial to both sides.

If the log does get implemented, I'd actually prefer to have no released datamining. That way, I can build up my log (which would be quite fun, imo) without it being spoiler.

If DE never releases the log, then the encryption would have caused plenty more harm than good.

Oh, that kinda log... eh. You gotta get the thing to drop first THEN you have the data, and it's suddenly useless to you.

[Luminati07]

Oh, that kinda log... eh. You gotta get the thing to drop first THEN you have the data, and it's suddenly useless to you.

Yeah, it's not the best.

 

But, say you're in a Grineer mission just slaughtering everything, it'd be nice to know what dropped what.

Plus, it could be expanded on to include enemy weak points, damage 2.0 info etc.

 

Would house the void drop info as well (though, that's already available on the wiki).

But, I just wish we'd get a token system for the void, not this RNG nonsense.

 

Honestly, I don't know how I feel about the log/encryption at the moment.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Nugget_

[antimab-EGT-]

Good topic I play since open beta and we share a (nearly all) point(/s) of view.

[Luminati07]

I like the new name. Stops me from frowning.

Sounds more inspiring then sad now.

Yeah, the other name didn't exactly inspire people. Though, it did get people to click on the thread :P

 

On topic, I'll play some more this weekend and give some more indepth thoughts on the vaults,

[101blubb]

Edit: The total damage of the serration + heavy impact maxed is higher than hornet strike and magnum force. So screw Acrid. 

 

Magnum Force + Hornet Strike = +286% dmg => 386% base dmg

Heavy Caliber + Serration = 330% dmg => 430% base dmg

Now combine that with Split Chamber/Barrel Diffusion:

Pistol: 3.86*(1+1.2) = 3.86*2.2 = 8.492 => ~8.5x base dmg & DPS

Rifle: 4.30*(1+0.9) = 4.30*1.9 = 8.170 => ~8.2x base dmg & DPS

 

Add Lethal Torrent and the higher base stats of Acrid, along with every other pistol mod (except for crit mods) being better than the rifle-equivalent to that equation and you'll see why Heavy Caliber + Serration being better than Hornet Strike + Magnum Force doesn't actually change a thing.

Edited October 10, 2013 by 101blubb

[Taranis49]

Yeah, it's not the best.

 

But, say you're in a Grineer mission just slaughtering everything, it'd be nice to know what dropped what.

Plus, it could be expanded on to include enemy weak points, damage 2.0 info etc.

 

Would house the void drop info as well (though, that's already available on the wiki).

But, I just wish we'd get a token system for the void, not this RNG nonsense.

 

Honestly, I don't know how I feel about the log/encryption at the moment.

 

In my case, it's burned a lot of trust - as much as I'd love to give them the benefit of the doubt, it becomes a case of "fool me once...", and Steve's excuses on reddit that encrypting the tables are an anti-hacking/cheating measures and that other companies don't release that information don't exactly sway me either. Quite the contrary.

 

That other companies might do it so they should do it too is the kind of reasoning that'd get laughed out of the room by Toga-wearing greeks a few thousand years ago. It's a classic appeal to tradition. Beyond that, there's the practical question: if DE's simply looking to do what every other company does, why shouldn't I just give my money to those companies?

 

It's particularly egregious in the case of Void Mission drops, since to the best of my knowledge, their drop rates have been mucked up following every single update. Even Sheldon acknowledges it looked shady after it happened the 2nd time following U10 and this kinda stuff does not help.

 

Had the log system been implemented first, I might have a higher opinion of it, but as-is, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

[RoboDoge]

When is V4 comming out?

[Luminati07]

 

In my case, it's burned a lot of trust - as much as I'd love to give them the benefit of the doubt, it becomes a case of "fool me once...", and Steve's excuses on reddit that encrypting the tables are an anti-hacking/cheating measures and that other companies don't release that information don't exactly sway me either. Quite the contrary.

 

That other companies might do it so they should do it too is the kind of reasoning that'd get laughed out of the room by Toga-wearing greeks a few thousand years ago. It's a classic appeal to tradition. Beyond that, there's the practical question: if DE's simply looking to do what every other company does, why shouldn't I just give my money to those companies?

 

It's particularly egregious in the case of Void Mission drops, since to the best of my knowledge, their drop rates have been mucked up following every single update. Even Sheldon acknowledges it looked shady after it happened the 2nd time following U10 and this kinda stuff does not help.

 

Had the log system been implemented first, I might have a higher opinion of it, but as-is, hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Yeah, it's actually very hard to believe Steve at this time.

 

If it's all just co-incidence, it could not have happened at a worse time.

The loot tables just happen to become encrypted after they were datamined to show the absolute joke that they were before?

 

This is probably just the conspiracy theorist inside me coming out, but it does seem very deliberate.

 

When is V4 comming out?

If my second post somehow hits 9000 words.

[Tartanu]

Let me tell you something. When I first started, I was very prone to buying Platinum. I almost buy it every chance I got, because I loved this game. But as time goes by, the tediousness of grinding on RNG. And all that utter cow feces, I'm starting to spend less and less. To this state where unless it's a huge discount, I won't touch it. Even when it's a huge discount, I won't even get a decent size package.

 

Yes, DE you have succeed in squeezing around $400 or more out of me.

Yeah, hold up right there, bub.  So they got you to fork over $400, eight times what an average person spends on the latest AAA productions, and all for a fraction of the development costs?

 

That, right there, is what you call a profit margin.

[Tartanu]

Hmm, I had read about the encrypted drop tables.

I know that DE mentioned (at least, I think I remember) that they wanted more transparency in this department, seems like this is contradictory.

 

On the flipside, DE did say they were thinking about some kind of in-game log that showed what items/mods you've picked up, and where you got them/what enemy dropped it. 

It'd make sense if they encrypted them so this log wouldn't just be nullified by datamined tables.

 

I dunno, I'm partial to both sides at the moment (assuming this "log" actually makes it into the game)

What a joke.  A log is effing worthless because DE changes the drop tables with every patch.  Do you expect your drop data from U7, 8, 9 to have any meaning today?  Or hell even 10.2 compared to 10.3...

[BadAimbot]

If they do introduce a drop log, I hope the log includes the chance of getting the drops.

[Tei_S]

To be honest I have been skimming through each iteration of these threads in my spare time, and while I disagree with a fair number of points (In that a lot of the issues people are having with RNG / Grind / Farm / Whatever don't bother me in the slightest, and that I personally can't see a token system helping in the slightest), and I kinda realized something while reading it. That isn't to say that you were an example of what I'm about to say, but your thread(s) kinda made things click for me. I still can't quite put it into words, so I apologize if I start waxing poetic, or if I lose coherence, or something like that.

 

If this game dies, it won't be because DE messed up, or really even did or didn't do anything in particular. It'll be because the community as a whole will suck the will to play out of each other. There is so much negativity and cynicism here in the forums that it is simply cancerous. It is positively venomous to any kind of feedback, and completely ruins any dialogue between the playerbase and the Dev team. But worst of all, it feeds off of itself. It has made people try to find faults in any of DE's actions, it has made people paranoid and convinced DE is out to get them, and above all has made people too frustrated and angry to see any positive side of anything. It creates this environment where people are made either frustrated, sad, angry, or any combination of the three, either directed towards the other members of the community who might have the audacity to disagree, or towards DE themselves, for whatever reason they can find. People are disheartened, then turned angry. They are shocked, then turned sad.

 

But that's when things get ugly. Each person becomes this vessel of cynicism and anger that just infects all others around it, so to speak. When everyone is angry and frustrated, nobody can have fun with anything anymore. The community turns into one giant "negative nancy." Then you start seeing things, things like the conspiracy theories, the accusations, the trying to find anything and everything wrong in something, anything that makes them feel vindicated, or whatever happens to fit whatever crazy view of DE they may have constructed.

 

DE does listen, and DE does try very hard, and people lose sight of that. Yes, it may be that many have lost faith, but how many more do you think have just succumbed to this air of hopelessness, anger, and frustration? How many will leave after being disheartened by seeing others get frustrated? The game will die because of a cancer within the community.

 

Bah... I'm tired of it really. I lived a good 4 or 5 years of my life thinking that I would never really meet anyone as downtrodden and cynical as I was, and then I started becoming active on these forums, and suddenly seemed like I was the only one who still had an ounce of faith left. It is an issue, and it's quite frankly disgusting to me. The level of unwarranted spite and anger is just appalling. The mere fact that DE even has to enforce a no-bashing-devs rule is just sickening. Is that the level of maturity we conduct ourselves in? I mean really?

 

I think this next Developer livestream needs to be longer, to spend time and answer all the questions they can. Two, perhaps even three hours even. Or at least long enough to respond to the communities "issues." As much as I hate to see DE prostrate themselves to people who can't be satisfied, it needs to happen. This disgusting attitude that the collective Forums is now filled with just has to be lifted, or nothing can move forward at any kind of efficiency.

 

I apologize for using your thread as a place to dump my thoughts, but I've been sitting on them for a while.

[Tartanu]

It has made people try to find faults in any of DE's actions, it has made people paranoid and convinced DE is out to get them

DE's primary focus as a corporation is to dig the money out of your pockets. Or did you lose sight of this basic fact of how this economy works?

[Tei_S]

DE's primary focus as a corporation is to dig the money out of your pockets. Or did you lose sight of this basic fact of how this economy works?

They exist to make a profit, yes. But that doesn't automatically make them some belligerent presence that seeks money and nothing else, as I've seen people make them out to be.

[[DE]jaywalker]

I've actually been thinking a lot regarding the PS4 release and have come to the conclusion that if they don't implement an effective tutorial in time we, the community, should take it upon ourselves to try and stage a community event where we all strip our mods and go to mercury and play terminus missions so we can help new players out.  I think it's important to the games future that this game and its a community present a good first impression to the next wave of new Tenno that join our ranks that week.  Also, as a community we have a certain amount of ownership regarding the game in a way and I think it'd be really cool for us to all work together to welcome the newbies into our ranks :D

1. It would renew my faith in humanity if our community did something like this for new players regularly.

2. Steve has his head down working on improving the tutorial in time for PS4 launch day. Expect not to hear from him much over the next few weeks (except maybe next week's Livestream).

[Luminati07]

To be honest I have been skimming through each iteration of these threads in my spare time, and while I disagree with a fair number of points (In that a lot of the issues people are having with RNG / Grind / Farm / Whatever don't bother me in the slightest, and that I personally can't see a token system helping in the slightest), and I kinda realized something while reading it. That isn't to say that you were an example of what I'm about to say, but your thread(s) kinda made things click for me. I still can't quite put it into words, so I apologize if I start waxing poetic, or if I lose coherence, or something like that.

 

If this game dies, it won't be because DE messed up, or really even did or didn't do anything in particular. It'll be because the community as a whole will suck the will to play out of each other. There is so much negativity and cynicism here in the forums that it is simply cancerous. It is positively venomous to any kind of feedback, and completely ruins any dialogue between the playerbase and the Dev team. But worst of all, it feeds off of itself. It has made people try to find faults in any of DE's actions, it has made people paranoid and convinced DE is out to get them, and above all has made people too frustrated and angry to see any positive side of anything. It creates this environment where people are made either frustrated, sad, angry, or any combination of the three, either directed towards the other members of the community who might have the audacity to disagree, or towards DE themselves, for whatever reason they can find. People are disheartened, then turned angry. They are shocked, then turned sad.

 

But that's when things get ugly. Each person becomes this vessel of cynicism and anger that just infects all others around it, so to speak. When everyone is angry and frustrated, nobody can have fun with anything anymore. The community turns into one giant "negative nancy." Then you start seeing things, things like the conspiracy theories, the accusations, the trying to find anything and everything wrong in something, anything that makes them feel vindicated, or whatever happens to fit whatever crazy view of DE they may have constructed.

 

DE does listen, and DE does try very hard, and people lose sight of that. Yes, it may be that many have lost faith, but how many more do you think have just succumbed to this air of hopelessness, anger, and frustration? How many will leave after being disheartened by seeing others get frustrated? The game will die because of a cancer within the community.

 

Bah... I'm tired of it really. I lived a good 4 or 5 years of my life thinking that I would never really meet anyone as downtrodden and cynical as I was, and then I started becoming active on these forums, and suddenly seemed like I was the only one who still had an ounce of faith left. It is an issue, and it's quite frankly disgusting to me. The level of unwarranted spite and anger is just appalling. The mere fact that DE even has to enforce a no-bashing-devs rule is just sickening. Is that the level of maturity we conduct ourselves in? I mean really?

 

I think this next Developer livestream needs to be longer, to spend time and answer all the questions they can. Two, perhaps even three hours even. Or at least long enough to respond to the communities "issues." As much as I hate to see DE prostrate themselves to people who can't be satisfied, it needs to happen. This disgusting attitude that the collective Forums is now filled with just has to be lifted, or nothing can move forward at any kind of efficiency.

 

I apologize for using your thread as a place to dump my thoughts, but I've been sitting on them for a while.

Hmm. Well, I certainly respect your point of view, but, I disagree completely.

 

The community isn't in its current state for no reason. Everyone I've spoken to, that agree with me, have all had their share of legitimate reasons. The most common point being that DE is not adding long term content to the game. Just layers and layers of grind and RNG (the 10 rank rare mods being a prime example).

 

The complaints with RNG are completely valid, even if you don't have any issue with them.

It's not fair to players at all if they need to run a void mission 20-30 times looking for a particular part. They might never see it at all.

If anything is going to drive players away, it's that. Not how "toxic" the community has become.

 

DE does listen. I've acknowledged that plenty of times. (read edit 12).

The thing is, while they listen, and they release hotfixes (which are awesome, btw), there's still plenty of things that need to be overhauled. But, there's been no indication of these being changed. Some of which, have been around for months.

"How many more do you think have just succumbed to this air of hopelessness, anger and frustration"

You're speaking like the players on these forums are just mindless sheep that see anger and follow anger.

I could turn the same argument on you, how many players become positive after seeing a positive thread.

 

Those who get disheartened by posts like mine are most likely already reaching that point, and posts like this just build on that.

Disheartening threads aren't going to turn positive players into bitter ones. Stop acting like we are going to be the downfall of the game. We are not.

Your comment on "this game will die because of a cancer within the community" is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on these forums.

That is a terrible thing to say, and is not true. Not in the slightest.

 

The game will die if DE continues to build on RNG and grind. It's not making anyone happy (maybe a select few).

 

"and then I started becoming active on these forums, and suddenly seemed like I was the only one who still had an ounce of faith left"

These forums are nothing compared to other games.

LoL has an utterly toxic forum. Is that game dead? F*** no. The forums aren't going to kill the game, so stop speaking like it will.

Did Tribes: Ascend die because of the state of the forums? No. It died because the devs were utterly useless.

 

"This disgusting attitide that the collective Forums is now filled with just has to be lifted"

You're right. It does.

 

But, it has to be done with actions.

A livestream dedicated to these issues would be a God-send, but, would make matters infinitely worse if it was filled with empty promises.

 

If DE says on a livestream that they will fix all these issues, then they completely ignore them. That would be far more than enough to send plenty of players over the edge. Myself included.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Nugget_

[Tartanu]

They exist to make a profit, yes. But that doesn't automatically make them some belligerent presence that seeks money and nothing else, as I've seen people make them out to be.

Wrong.  Their profit is your loss, and that's a material fact that cannot be merely explained away.

 

Whether a game is "good" or not is secondary (or even tertiary) to this purpose, as a glorified trinket shop can be just as effective as a deep, complex game if it gets the dollars to leave your hands and enter theirs.

 

The trick is making people think that we're all on the same side, whether through superficial perks or overpriced founders packs, getting them to "buy in" and build up a mountain of cognitive dissonance as they attempt to rationalize the fact that they just poured hundreds of bucks into a mediocre-at-best gameplay experience.  The sad fact of the matter is that unless this game radically reexamines its priorities between now and, say, the PS4 release next month, the game has little chance to stand up to any industry standard that matters,

 

Case in point: Warframe Open Beta Jackal vs. Destiny alpha "Jackal"

 

This perhaps might be a more general criticism of the F2P business model in general, as this is not the first time I've seen a F2P game head south like this.  Traditional development models rely on presenting a consumer with a finished product to evaluate, but the F2P model with its perpetual betas allow developers to string users along with skinner box gameplay models and to take the path of least resistance.  After all, everything is "beta" so don't expect anything to pass muster.

Edited October 11, 2013 by niekaa

[Alohoe]

this has amazing feedback.  im just saying feedback posts in general come across as QQ more than anything else.  The devs have said time and time again that they regularly read the feedback forums.  that is where feedback goes.  it is up to the OP to decide what goes where in the feedback forums.  

Edited October 11, 2013 by jaywalker
cleaned of non-constructive comments