I Find Myself Becoming More And More Bitter As The Days Progress

[KvotheTheArcane1]

To be honest I have been skimming through each iteration of these threads in my spare time, and while I disagree with a fair number of points (In that a lot of the issues people are having with RNG / Grind / Farm / Whatever don't bother me in the slightest, and that I personally can't see a token system helping in the slightest), and I kinda realized something while reading it. That isn't to say that you were an example of what I'm about to say, but your thread(s) kinda made things click for me. I still can't quite put it into words, so I apologize if I start waxing poetic, or if I lose coherence, or something like that.

On the subject on RNG, it is quite bad, you might not have run into it yet, but before now people have run 100+ missions trying to get the ONE BP they were looking for, or the one bit from the void, etc. A token system would help in the fact that even though you didn't get what you want, you'll be able to trade the unwanted BPs in for tokens with which you can then buy the missing BP with.

 

If this game dies, it won't be because DE messed up, or really even did or didn't do anything in particular. It'll be because the community as a whole will suck the will to play out of each other. There is so much negativity and cynicism here in the forums that it is simply cancerous. It is positively venomous to any kind of feedback, and completely ruins any dialogue between the playerbase and the Dev team. But worst of all, it feeds off of itself. It has made people try to find faults in any of DE's actions, it has made people paranoid and convinced DE is out to get them, and above all has made people too frustrated and angry to see any positive side of anything. It creates this environment where people are made either frustrated, sad, angry, or any combination of the three, either directed towards the other members of the community who might have the audacity to disagree, or towards DE themselves, for whatever reason they can find. People are disheartened, then turned angry. They are shocked, then turned sad.

I disagree here completely, it's not the players' fault for burning out and being unhappy with changes DE makes (and voicing their displeasure).

 

As for "trying to find faults", you don't have to look very far. OD is laggy, crashy, and buggy (as in you can get stuck and unable to get out), the void's drop rates were "rigged" (for lack of a better word I guess) not once, but twice, the most recent hotfix allows the mision to start randomly, hitting enter in chat jumps you between planets, esc changes the play mode (well, brings up the online, private, solo menu), among other things, volt after his buff is still subpar, ember is subpar too AFAIK, and the (mostly reverted) stamina nerf was awful, and that's stuff off the top of my head. Did they add a lot of good things? YES. I like the new UI, I like that you no longer have to unequip everything to put it onto another frame, but for all the good stuff, something bad is almost always in the update to taint it.

 

As for the game dieing, no I don't see it happening, but you are right here, it won't be one big change from DE that kills it, it'd probably be the lack of (good) changes, and small things building up.

 

But that's when things get ugly. Each person becomes this vessel of cynicism and anger that just infects all others around it, so to speak. When everyone is angry and frustrated, nobody can have fun with anything anymore. The community turns into one giant "negative nancy." Then you start seeing things, things like the conspiracy theories, the accusations, the trying to find anything and everything wrong in something, anything that makes them feel vindicated, or whatever happens to fit whatever crazy view of DE they may have constructed.

Again, this anger and negativeness isn't exactly unwarranted. For example, they'll talk about something (i.e. grappling hook), then never talk about it again, or they'll make a change ALMOST everyone hates, such as the ember overheat nerf, or the stamina nerf.

 

DE does listen, and DE does try very hard, and people lose sight of that. Yes, it may be that many have lost faith, but how many more do you think have just succumbed to this air of hopelessness, anger, and frustration? How many will leave after being disheartened by seeing others get frustrated? The game will die because of a cancer within the community.

I wouldn't say they've lost hope, I mean, they're still playing after all. And as for people causing others to lose faith/hope in DE, it's because those people see the points others make, and go "Damn, I can't disagree." Which gets them thinking and looking at what's wrong with the game.

 

Again, I doubt the community will kill off warframe, look at LoL/HoN, pretty damn toxic there and they're going just fine (so your argument is meaningless and based on nothing)

 

As for DE trying hard, I hope so. I honestly hope they are trying to improve now, that they genuinely have tried to turn things around. They have opened communication slightly more with the Dev workshop subforum which is nice.

 

Bah... I'm tired of it really. I lived a good 4 or 5 years of my life thinking that I would never really meet anyone as downtrodden and cynical as I was, and then I started becoming active on these forums, and suddenly seemed like I was the only one who still had an ounce of faith left. It is an issue, and it's quite frankly disgusting to me. The level of unwarranted spite and anger is just appalling. The mere fact that DE even has to enforce a no-bashing-devs rule is just sickening. Is that the level of maturity we conduct ourselves in? I mean really?

1. There already was a "no bashing" rule, they just wanted to make it clearer (the rule is "Respect others" in a nutshell, not sure of the exact wording), but yeah this really shouldn't happen, but I can see what caused it overall (doesn't justify it though)

 

 

2. Faith =/= good all the time, we can like DE, but based on the recent events, I'm not sure faith is entirely justified in DE right now. We haven't seen a whole lot from them that's, you know earned it. Hell, recently they encrypted the data tables, you know, the data that dataminers used as proof of "formagate/voidgate/defensegate" events. Maybe they'll open it back up, or publish the data from the tables themselves, but the message it sends isn't a good one (which is my point)

 

I think this next Developer livestream needs to be longer, to spend time and answer all the questions they can. Two, perhaps even three hours even. Or at least long enough to respond to the communities "issues." As much as I hate to see DE prostrate themselves to people who can't be satisfied, it needs to happen. This disgusting attitude that the collective Forums is now filled with just has to be lifted, or nothing can move forward at any kind of efficiency.

I agree nice long livestream (where they stay on topic and not get sidetracked dammit!) would be wonderful, provided they don't give more talk about stuff that is then quickly forgotten/turns out to be an empty promise. And again, the attitude on the forums isn't exactly unwarranted.

Edited October 11, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Slurmageddon]

You and I share much the same attitude in something like, 90% of what you say right down to me following essentially the same path of thought and sentiment. In terms of your time here, i am now reaching the point where I can't or wont white knight for DE anymore even though i still love them as devs.

I want warframe to stay alive and keep growing because I LIKE it here. All the burnout, the long overdue market overhaul, and everything else you mentioned dont detract from this being an online community I feel a part of and like being a part of.

DroppedaBeat up above commented on how the accumulated frustration of the community can become self perpetuating and I'm inclined to agree with his sentiment. It is a bit of a downer that things are as they are but there is fun yet to be had in warframe and I think that things can and will improve. I'm not exactly known for my optimism so I guess that's more down to my trust that DE will do their best because this is after all a game they themselves love. If THAT were to ever change... I believe that's when we can declare the game to be dying.

[Geisterklinge]

I agree with your criticism on almost every point very much also including your praises for DE. The most of us don't complain because we are bad persons but because we care. (unfortunately that is not always the case however but thats a whole different story).

I have to disagree slightly on your statements towards weapons variety, though there is room for more variety or sensible alternatives and added viability (*cough* longsword fiasco *cough*) in general most weapons have a very distinct feel to them even if they all tend to do the same thing (shooting stuff to make people dead - perish the thought :) )

Also concerning the wrong forum critique:
Generally it is useful for the devs if concerns are brought up in the appropiate feedback forum, but this is more of a raising of general concerns - and the perceived importance most of these items have to the community would get diluted if this very non QQ'y and non flamey thread would have been stretched out over 15 different threads in 8+ subforums.

A lot of posts and upvotes are bound to get the Devs attention (which is mostly good, except for rage threadnaughts) and singled out problems and dedicated solutions can still be discussed in the appropiate forums.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Geisterklinge

[Shiniko]

Is it just im a casual player, or I'm just really really lax?

None of the above seem like particularly huge issues, and most of them can be ignored.......ish.

The game's still playable, and if you don't like the feature, just don't use it. :/

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Is it just im a casual player, or I'm just really really lax?

None of the above seem like particularly huge issues, and most of them can be ignored.......ish.

The game's still playable, and if you don't like the feature, just don't use it. :/

1. You probably haven't been around long enough

 

2. Ignoring something that's broken is dumb, people should try to fix it instead by giving feedback (of any type "positive" or "negative", however you want to define that. Positive for me includes reasons for whatever they changed, while negative is more or less "change it because I said so")

[Relkin]

-snip-

Yeah pretty much...I've said it in other threads but gamers are used to being the stars of the show.  Combined with the customer service facet of this industry which people confuse for entitlement and sheer blatant ignorance of what goes into the development of a product like this all weighed down by ridiculously unrealistic expectations you get a bunch of whiny narcissistic man children who demand every petty thing be fixed immediately or the sun will not rise tomorrow......the more I see this the more I think it's a mistake to involve the community so much in development.  I think perhaps early access/open betas that are really alphas (not feature complete) are terrible ideas because the gaming community by and large is literally incapable of handling it.   

 

People are complaining about the grind and crap right now, yet the big issue before this was the armor/damage model wasn't it?  I mean RNG has been a thorn sure, but people were making a far bigger stink about that.  What does DE do?  They knuckle down to fix the issue....meanwhile everybody jumps onto the next big thing to cry baby about while they're still working on the other thing they promised they'd make priority one (LIKE WE ASKED THEM TO).  Now everybody is singing songs of doom and gloom because DE isn't working fast enough?  Realistic expectations people....

 

When we have people here comparing Warframe to a game like Destiny....ugh bungie has almost twice as many staff as DE and loads more money - not to mention that when Destiny releases it'd have been in one stage of development or another for almost four years....this game has been worked on for less than two.  

 

People, put the breaks on, take a chill pill with a cold cup of reality and set realistic expectations. 

[Relkin]

1. It would renew my faith in humanity if our community did something like this for new players regularly.

2. Steve has his head down working on improving the tutorial in time for PS4 launch day. Expect not to hear from him much over the next few weeks (except maybe next week's Livestream).

*sigh* It's realistic enough to believe support could be drummed up for the PS4 release but on a regular basis?  I honestly don't think people could be bothered with it.  It's hard enough trying to get people to do anything that isn't chasing the next cookie like explore for O-courses in derelicts or run phobos survival.  With that said, it may be worth a try - the time is all that'd be lost I guess. 

[Tartanu]

When we have people here comparing Warframe to a game like Destiny....ugh bungie has almost twice as many staff as DE and loads more money - not to mention that when Destiny releases it'd have been in one stage of development or another for almost four years....this game has been worked on for less than two.  

 

People, put the breaks on, take a chill pill with a cold cup of reality and set realistic expectations. 

Does the market care that Destiny has an army working on it?  What, do you expect people to flock to Warframe out of pity points?

 

Get real--Destiny is a direct competitor whether you want it to be or not.  Sadly dumping hundreds of dollars into this game does not give you any more or less say in this matter.

[Relkin]

Does the market care that Destiny has an army working on it?  What, do you expect people to flock to Warframe out of pity points?

 

Get real--Destiny is a direct competitor whether you want it to be or not.  Sadly dumping hundreds of dollars into this game does not give you any more or less say in this matter.

Not saying that at all, what I am saying Mr. I took economics 101 lulz...sry I just find people like you super amusing as you stew and fester in your own pompous...anyways what I am saying is that you can't expect them to work on the same time table nor hold them to the same standard anymore than I can expect a nissan sentra to compare to a lambo.  What you use is up to you but don't throw a childish temper tantrum because your sentra isn't as fast.  

 

Also loving the the founder pack dig there lol you people...

Edited October 11, 2013 by Relkin

[Tartanu]

I've actually been thinking a lot regarding the PS4 release and have come to the conclusion that if they don't implement an effective tutorial in time we, the community, should take it upon ourselves to try and stage a community event where we all strip our mods and go to mercury and play terminus missions so we can help new players out.  I think it's important to the games future that this game and its a community present a good first impression to the next wave of new Tenno that join our ranks that week.  Also, as a community we have a certain amount of ownership regarding the game in a way and I think it'd be really cool for us to all work together to welcome the newbies into our ranks :D 

It's not your responsibility to cover for undeveloped gameplay features.  Just like it's not your responsibility to take out your neighbor's garbage or volunteer to stock shelves at wal-mart.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

People are complaining about the grind and crap right now, yet the big issue before this was the armor/damage model wasn't it?  I mean RNG has been a thorn sure, but people were making a far bigger stink about that.  What does DE do?  They knuckle down to fix the issue....meanwhile everybody jumps onto the next big thing to cry baby about while they're still working on the other thing they promised they'd make priority one (LIKE WE ASKED THEM TO).  Now everybody is singing songs of doom and gloom because DE isn't working fast enough?  Realistic expectations people....

 

Because the grind got worse (and we really haven't heard any details on armor 2.0 so we can't judge yet, but we can make a fuss over RNG and grind in hopes that'll be the next thing on their list)

[Tartanu]

Not saying that at all, what I am saying Mr. I took economics 101 lulz...sry I just find people like you super amusing as you stew and fester in your own pompous...anyways what I am saying is that you can't expect them to work on the same time table nor hold them to the same standard anymore than I can expect a nissan sentra to compare to a lambo.  What you use is up to you but don't throw a childish temper tantrum because your sentra isn't as fast.  

 

Also loving the the founder pack dig there lol you people...

The irony is that "lambo" will cost a quarter of what you paid for this sentra, Mr. Founder.

[Relkin]

The irony is that "lambo" will cost a quarter of what you paid for this sentra, Mr. Founder.

I <3 that the best you can do is another founder dig because you are completely incapable of seeing the point and seek only to try and crap on another person.....you must have had a very very terrible life.  I chose to support this  game because I like the concept and I believe in the dev team and frankly? 250$? That ain't S#&amp;&#036; to me man, spit in the bucket. 

[Madotsuki]

So, DE decided to encrypt their drop tables so the dataminers can't get to it (well technically dataminers can still decrypt them given a little time, hell it'd probably motivate MORE such people to decrypt them for the challenge). It seems the only thing they learned from the Forma droprate fiasco is that they should learn to stop getting caught in the act.

 

And you know what's sadder? There are fanboys on the forums DEFENDING them about this too, and it's a significant amount of them even. In the words of one of my favourite professors, "I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

 

So, thoughts Nugget? Because I feel like this is evidence that continuing to give feedback to DE is pointless at this point.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Madotsuki

[Luminati07]

Guys, argue in your own private messages or something.

I don't want this thread getting de-railed and locked.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Guys, argue in your own private messages or something.

I don't want this thread getting de-railed and locked.

Maybe PM Rebecca, or blatant or someone to please clean this thread up a bit?

[Madotsuki]

Guys, argue in your own private messages or something.

I don't want this thread getting de-railed and locked.

Well admittedly if DE wants to censor this away, they'll do it even without the excuse of de-railing. Look at that 13 page thread about DE encrypting the drop tables. In no way was the thread really de-railed at any point, and Megan just locked it anyway, hide it out of mind and out of sight. And to a certain degree, considering your thread is about EVERYTHING generally wrong with Warframe right now, it's almost impossible to get off-topic, unless people actually stop talking about the game.

[Relkin]

Because the grind got worse (and we really haven't heard any details on armor 2.0 so we can't judge yet, but we can make a fuss over RNG and grind in hopes that'll be the next thing on their list)

Armor 2.0 as a WIP went up in DC yesterday and has been on reddit since about the same time.  Steve's been busy and mentioned as much in the post which was short and contained an image of the spreadsheet he's working off of.  The problem with RNG thing is that its not contained to a single thread, its like a hundred separate threads and are generally laced something nearing hostility.  Its just not a good way to go about it as people are effectively alienating the community from the devs more than the devs have us by dripping information.  I'm in no way saying they are perfect or have handled everything without mistake anymore than I would say that about human on this planet but it's a two way street.  

 

 

[Relkin]

What, the crowdsourcing thing? No, people volunteer for that knowing they're being used for work (if that's what we're talking about), and it's clear what is it, while this is a game, and people come to play to have fun.

 

(and btw as far as I an tell, you started with the insults)

I think this is largely a perception issue sadly because as I said it's not something I see as work and a lot of crowdsourcing projects are fun too.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.  What I see as meeting new people and helping them out you see as work *shrug* nobody is forcing you to do anything either being that it's obviously not mandatory or anything just a community event run by the community for the community.  Some people enjoy doing their own thing, others enjoy getting involved in things with a lot of other people I guess that's just how it goes. 

 

It all started with that first, uncalled for and unrelated founders dig...   

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I think this is largely a perception issue sadly because as I said it's not something I see as work and a lot of crowdsourcing projects are fun too.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.  What I see as meeting new people and helping them out you see as work *shrug* nobody is forcing you to do anything either being that it's obviously not mandatory or anything just a community event run by the community for the community.  Some people enjoy doing their own thing, others enjoy getting involved in things with a lot of other people I guess that's just how it goes. 

Eh, true, different strokes and all, but the problem is that a game is meant to be fun, while when you crowdsource something you ARE looking for work.

 

It all started with that first, uncalled for and unrelated founders dig...   

Ah, good point, I didn't dig back too far.

[Relkin]

Eh, true, different strokes and all, but the problem is that a game is meant to be fun, while when you crowdsource something you ARE looking for work.

 

I mean, if DE proposed the idea maybe I'd be more inclined to see it that way I think.  From the community though? Idk maybe work and fun don't have to be mutually exclusive I guess?  I mean I guess I can see why some people would call it work because they're doing something for nothing (at least directly, it DOES serve a purpose in that it enriches the community by bringing it together for a common positive purpose as well as gives a great positive experience to new members of our growing community) so I can see why you would label it as such. Personally, when I don't feel like grinding anything out or am taking a break from phobos survival (so much fun there I wish more ppl went there) I go to mercury and adopt noobs at least to the boss on toljste or w/e its called and generally enjoy the time and have made quite a few friends I play with to this day by doing that so it has been a positive experience for me therefore I have positive connotations around it which I understand I can't project onto other people.  

 

Still won't stop me from trying to get the ball rolling down the road :D  

 

By the way, have you taken the time to check out the armor 2.0 stuff on reddit yet?  The direction they're going in should pretty much wipe Edits 7 & 8 from the OP of this thread right off the table!  It's hard to say how cookie click the mentality of players has gotten so I can't say for certainty for others but personally I think it'll breath some new life into the core game play a little bit which may alleviate SOME of the grinding dulldrums by decimating and complicating the current grossly simple meta.  Take a look at it if you get the chance.

[SJunior]

1. You probably haven't been around long enough

 

2. Ignoring something that's broken is dumb, people should try to fix it instead by giving feedback (of any type "positive" or "negative", however you want to define that. Positive for me includes reasons for whatever they changed, while negative is more or less "change it because I said so")

 

Is it just im a casual player, or I'm just really really lax?

None of the above seem like particularly huge issues, and most of them can be ignored.......ish.

The game's still playable, and if you don't like the feature, just don't use it. :/

 

^This is me.

 

I mean, Nothing in the game is /broke/ you can still /do./ everything.(One could say the Random drops/RNG is a 'broken system' But not to me. Yes it is quite irritating at times, But not broken/unworkable.) everything. But I don't know, I'v been around pretty long, Since u7, Spent 400 hours in the game, And still having fun with it. Sure, I would like the game to have amazing-er features, And for everything to be better, But I can say that about just about any other game.

 

The only thing for me that really bothers me, And that i'd like to see in the game is the armor re-work, But they've been working at that. And I understand they only have so many workers, And not all workers have the capabilities to work on the same thing.

 

I think DE is doing a pretty good job too, From past experiences with other F2Ps. Though, One thing they /seriously/ need to work on is communication, As even when they communicate, Sometimes it isn't right/they have to go back on it/it wasn't the whole picture whatever.

 

So yeah.. I guess I'm pretty lax.

Edited October 11, 2013 by SJunior

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I mean, if DE proposed the idea maybe I'd be more inclined to see it that way I think.  From the community though? Idk maybe work and fun don't have to be mutually exclusive I guess?

Sorry, my point was you expect different things from games vs crowdsourcing. You sign up for a game, you expect some fun, with some "work" in the sense you gotta grind a bit, while crowdsourcing is more or less a job.

 

By the way, have you taken the time to check out the armor 2.0 stuff on reddit yet?  The direction they're going in should pretty much wipe Edits 7 & 8 from the OP of this thread right off the table!  It's hard to say how cookie click the mentality of players has gotten so I can't say for certainty for others but personally I think it'll breath some new life into the core game play a little bit which may alleviate SOME of the grinding dulldrums by decimating and complicating the current grossly simple meta.  Take a look at it if you get the chance.

I have not yet, link please?

 

I personally though off hand don't think it'll breath enough life into the game, I mean, it was meant to make high level enemies not so crazy resistant to everything but AP weaponry, not rework the entire enemy AI to make them smarter to present a challenge.

 

 

I mean, Nothing in the game is /broke/ you can still /do./ everything.(One could say the Random drops/RNG is a 'broken system' But not to me. Yes it is quite irritating at times, But not broken/unworkable.) everything. But I don't know, I'v been around pretty long, Since u7, Spent 400 hours in the game, And still having fun with it. Sure, I would like the game to have amazing-er features, And for everything to be better, But I can say that about just about any other game.

The reason people find RNG broken is because it works very well right now (being fairly random), which means when hunting for BPs (before the recent change) from bosses you could get no BP, the wrong BP, or the right BP, and unless you got the third option there, the run was a 100% waste of time in regards to getting the new frame you wanted, and there was no backstop to this RNG (with some people having to farm 100+ times for the last BP they wanted)

Edited October 11, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Relkin]

 

I have not yet, link please?

 

I personally though off hand don't think it'll breath enough life into the game, I mean, it was meant to make high level enemies not so crazy resistant to everything but AP weaponry, not rework the entire enemy AI to make them smarter to present a challenge.

 

PM'd you bc I THINK I'm not supposed to post it in the general forum (not really sure tbh)

 

As you'll see it actually goes quite a bit beyond reducing resistances and making high lvl enemies not so silly in that its armor ignore or gtfo - if this goes forward they'll be reworking the entire damage and elemental system almost from the ground up while injecting several key mechanics which will shake things up.  The ablative armor thing is sweet too bc that allows for some simple AI improvements to be worked off of that (although tbf they could have been worked off of health %'s too) but yeah...good stuff man.  We'll see what comes of it because it's a work in progress and subject to change of course. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

PM'd you bc I THINK I'm not supposed to post it in the general forum (not really sure tbh)

 

As you'll see it actually goes quite a bit beyond reducing resistances and making high lvl enemies not so silly in that its armor ignore or gtfo - if this goes forward they'll be reworking the entire damage and elemental system almost from the ground up while injecting several key mechanics which will shake things up.  The ablative armor thing is sweet too bc that allows for some simple AI improvements to be worked off of that (although tbf they could have been worked off of health %'s too) but yeah...good stuff man.  We'll see what comes of it because it's a work in progress and subject to change of course. 

AFAIK, it's ok to post the stuff on the forums, but don't quote me on that.

 

Looking it over yeah it DOES look like it'll revamp the damage system pretty well (and I like it), but still, the AI needs some work, while it might make the combat better it doesn't fix the problem of the lack of skill involved in the fights really (what I mean is, the AI is pretty dumb), but this is definitely a good start to making the combat better.