Limit Breaker - Power Balance, Difficulty, and Rewards.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

This is a system intended to address power balance and game difficulty, along with reward/grind. I do not pretend it is a perfect solutions or this presentation of it is perfect. I hope to encourage a debate over the balance of the game. Striking the right mix of challenging AI, given the challenges presented by the current game balance. This isn't a proposal to eliminate powers, or to turn WarFrame into Dark Souls.

 

DE has teased a form of limit breaker, Rage mode, feature. Secondly, there has been a long debate over difficulty and power levels in Warframes (hence forth, WF). I propose using the Limit Breaker feature as an opportunity to reset WF power levels, and introduce dynamic enemy AI. This difficulty reset should allow for reexamination of the rewards system. 

 

The argument against more dynamic enemy AI is WF are too powerful. This is also why rewards are behind increasingly steep grind walls.

 

Proposed solution: Limit Breaker

A limit Breaker is typically a meter that once built up to its capacity, temporarily, unlocks a powerful mode for the player character. 

In the context of Warframe I would couple some power features, with the WF general power level. Specifically, this would mean powers would be capped at 100% except when the limit breaker is in effect. i.e. Power Strength, Efficiency, Range and Duration, would be capped at 100% until the limit breaker opens up any additional modded percentages. 

 

In addition to unlocking the power cap, a super charged attack or some other feature would apply to the limit breaker mode (hence forth, LB).

 

Examples:

LB base 1000, to break with 1 point generated per second. The LB would last 30 seconds at base. Features, a x10 damage bonus to next attack, and a +15 per second energy generation for duration of LB.

Un-modified, it would take about sixteen and a half minutes to fill the LB. the rate of LB accrued could be increased through player actions.

 

Action	Multiplier	Duration
Headshot	x2.0-x5.0	5 seconds
Headshot Kill	x2.0-x5.0	10 seconds
Aim Glide Kill	x2.0-x3.0	5 seconds
Aim Glide	x1.5	Sustain
Slide Kill	x1.5-x3.0	5 seconds
Heavy Attack Hit	x1.5-x3.0	5 seconds
Heavy Attack Kill	x2.0-x5.0	5 seconds
Raised Kill	x3.0-x8.0	5 seconds
Finisher	x7.0	3 seconds
Parry	x8.0	3 seconds
Wall Attack	x5.0	5 seconds
Wall Attack Kill	x5.0	10 seconds
Wall Latch	x1.5	Sustain
Yellow Crit Kill	x1.5-x3.0	1 seconds
Orange Crit Kill	x2.0-x4.0	2 seconds
Red Crit Kill	x2.5-x5.0	3 seconds
Status Kill	x1.5-x3.0	2 seconds
Overstatus Kill	x2.0-x4.0	3 seconds
Revive Other	x5.0	5 seconds

 

Multipliers stacks but have caps. Duration can be reset/refreshed. More examples can be added and all numbers are WIP for demonstrative purposes.

 

The LB system could allow for players to possibly improve or change the base total needed, or possibly the base rate earned per second. Additionally, or instead, each method of increasing the rate earned could be improved. 

 

Once the WF powers modded potential is behind the LB, this should open some space for approaching enemy difficultly through dynamic design. Enemy AI, unique kits, etc.

With the enemy difficulty being rebalanced, the rewards system and level of grind can be examined.

 

I realize that aside from overwhelming WF powers, there is also the problem of overwhelmingly powerful weapons. These would also likely need another balance pass. I also hope the methods for accelerating the LB rewards different play styles other than spamming AoE weapons.

 

At the end of the day I think a compromise of meaningful changes needs to be made to allow for our WF power fantasy, while preserving a difficulty and challenge curve that keeps the game engaging. 

Edited May 25, 2020 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX
Fixed most of the text color issue, but the table is a big bother.

[Magus_Tahir]

As much as I love Final Fantasy and FFXIV in general. This from a design perspective would be a system that the damage systems in the game would have to be designed around from the start. To put this in and fix the other system they would have to pull a Naoki Yoshida and shut the game down for a year to change everything required, and for a F2P that is not feasible. 

P.s. Removed its in feedback I am dumb. 😆

P.s.2 Looks like you did what I did once and copy pasted all your text is black and for those using dark mode can't read it. Make sure to adjust to forum formatting when you copy paste.

Cheers

Edited May 24, 2020 by Magus_Tahir
Typo, gods I need coffee. Edit two. I can't tell one forum from another anymore.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

1 minute ago, Magus_Tahir said:

As much as I love Final Fantasy and FFXIV in general. This from a design perspective would be a system that the damage systems in the game would have to be designed around from the start. To put this in and fix the other system they would have to pull a Naoki Yoshida and shut the game down for a year to change everything require, and for a F2P that is not feasible. 

P.s. This goes in feedback here: https://forums.warframe.com/forum/1219-feedback/

P.s.2 Looks like you did what I did once and copy pasted all your text is black and for those using dark mode can't read it. Make sure to adjust to forum formatting when you copy paste.

Cheers

Thanks for the heads up on the text color. 

[AltairFerenc]

well the idea is good BUT
This would slow down killing and nuking frames for sure AND complety kill CC frames
(also this would benifit tryhards a lot and punish casual who just came for a good time)
Back in the day CC was meta because all we had for DPS is radial javelin exca(pre-rework) now CC is irrelevent because most CC abilites can't go in fuil effect because mobs die before it could. 
This would slow down killing and would make CC so small it would still be irrelevant.
And this basicly only works on frames not on weapons so bramma is still in full effect.

The abilites need overhauls not a new system. Baruuk is a good example, his exalted weapon is powerful af but in order to use it you need to use your other abilites as well. Equinox needs to fill in his/her damage by killing all it needs is to not go trough walls anymore. Mesas's peacemakers need to have a kill limit and cooldown maybe. And I have no idea for saryn.
As well as nerf some CC to, wisp and volt shocking just simply should not last that long or simply the shocking animiation should scale with durration with low enough base durration so you can choose that you shok a lot for short time or fewer for longer. Same with frost freeze and atlas' stone that's all I can think about for frames rn

For weapons just simply buff everything that is more than a 2 years old(higher numbers as it's age goes up) and nerf the problematic weapons in some way, or just bring back sefl damage with an addition of friendly fire too so bramtarsd will kill thier team and themself so they either learn how to shoot when to shoot and where to shoot or leave the weapon out of frustration.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

21 hours ago, Magus_Tahir said:

As much as I love Final Fantasy and FFXIV in general. This from a design perspective would be a system that the damage systems in the game would have to be designed around from the start. To put this in and fix the other system they would have to pull a Naoki Yoshida and shut the game down for a year to change everything required, and for a F2P that is not feasible. 

[Snip]

Cheers

I've heard FF is big on Limit Breakers. I have limited experience with FF, but have played other games with them. As for the complexity of the rebalance, I can't exactly judge, but Warframe has done sweeping changes before without having to halt the game. Clearly, this would be a major change! I was reading in the thread specifically about [DE]Pablo's comments about enemy AI and WarFrame power levels. People brought up a lot of great game comparison for Warframe, and how some of those have LB's. I have often compared WF to Diablo, but I think it is a good point to acknowledge that this is also an action game. This is where the tactical versus horde argument comes into play. I suggest, WF should fall somewhere is the middle. More Doom Guy, killing mobs to build up to taking down the real threats. That is how the LB system I set up is sort of geared. Increase the counter to reach the build up through actions, and unleash your true potential!

20 hours ago, AltairFerenc said:

well the idea is good BUT
This would slow down killing and nuking frames for sure AND complety kill CC frames
(also this would benifit tryhards a lot and punish casual who just came for a good time)
Back in the day CC was meta because all we had for DPS is radial javelin exca(pre-rework) now CC is irrelevent because most CC abilites can't go in fuil effect because mobs die before it could. 
This would slow down killing and would make CC so small it would still be irrelevant.
And this basicly only works on frames not on weapons so bramma is still in full effect.

The abilites need overhauls not a new system. Baruuk is a good example, his exalted weapon is powerful af but in order to use it you need to use your other abilites as well. Equinox needs to fill in his/her damage by killing all it needs is to not go trough walls anymore. Mesas's peacemakers need to have a kill limit and cooldown maybe. And I have no idea for saryn.
As well as nerf some CC to, wisp and volt shocking just simply should not last that long or simply the shocking animiation should scale with durration with low enough base durration so you can choose that you shok a lot for short time or fewer for longer. Same with frost freeze and atlas' stone that's all I can think about for frames rn

For weapons just simply buff everything that is more than a 2 years old(higher numbers as it's age goes up) and nerf the problematic weapons in some way, or just bring back sefl damage with an addition of friendly fire too so bramtarsd will kill thier team and themself so they either learn how to shoot when to shoot and where to shoot or leave the weapon out of frustration.

If everything was left as is, I would agree, but the point is to rebalance the enemies given, what is hopefully some breathing room from the often instant and continuous overpowered spam of insta-kill powers. As you mention later, weapons would have to be touched to, and I didn't go into that enough. 

I don't disagree that making more dynamic and co-dependent powers is a great solution. If all the powers could be rebalanced, then maybe a Limit Breaker wouldn't be necessary. One of the reason I do propose the LB is, because [DE]Pablo* has stated that he believes that the oppositions to changing/nerfing these powers would not be tolerated by too large a base of the players. Now, I am hoping that this Limit Breaker system could be more palatable, as the powers remain the same, just the power levels are tweaked, by the LB. (*[DE]Pablo in a recent interview w/ youtube content creators)

Edited May 25, 2020 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[AltairFerenc]

4 hours ago, (PS4)MoRockaPDX said:

One of the reason I do propose the LB is, because [DE]Pablo* has stated that he believes that the oppositions to changing/nerfing these powers would not be tolerated by too large a base of the players. Now, I am hoping that this Limit Breaker system could be more palatable, as the powers remain the same, just the power levels are tweaked, by the LB. (*[DE]Pablo in a recent interview w/ youtube content creators)

Well sometimes players must be angered and they have to live with it, nerfing is really really needed rn. For a new player the game already has so much mechanic to learn(movement, modding, elements, companions, railjack, a lot of different weapon classes, focus/operator, zaws/kitguns, 40(?)ish frames all with different abilites) and on top of limit breaks? 
This really feels like yugioh all over again, new and returning players would be confused a lot and maybe even leave just because there's another new "pointless overcomplicated mechanic that is not explained in game at all"

Primaries got a complete rebalance like 3 years ago, melee weapons got a complete rebalance not so long ago. Frame abilites need a complete rebalance for years now. Pure/mostly CC frames are need since there are 3 nukers and a bunch of immortals who can just use the bramma/exodia contagnation/*insert any meta weapon here* and they are fine. Why would anyone use Baruuk, Ash who can nuke but they need to work for it in thier own way when mesa, saryn, equinox can nuke with a press of a button 2 out of the 3 trough walls too. 
Why would anyone use Nyx or Zephyr when they basicly useless in public and even in solo they only have use if they fit your playstyle.
Nyx went from CC queen to completly useless, her CC is no longer good enough. 
Nukers need restricsions like baruuk, CC abilites need rebalance
Nyx, Zephyr, Hydroid, Chroma need a complete rework and a good chunkc of frames need tweaks to be usefull.
All this ignoring the playerbase anger since they want challange and old things to be good but in the meantime they only use the the things that need the least amount of input to do everything(saryn, mesa, bramma)
The playerbase need to grow up, accept things and move on.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

On 2020-05-25 at 12:34 AM, AltairFerenc said:

Well sometimes players must be angered and they have to live with it, nerfing is really really needed rn. For a new player the game already has so much mechanic to learn(movement, modding, elements, companions, railjack, a lot of different weapon classes, focus/operator, zaws/kitguns, 40(?)ish frames all with different abilites) and on top of limit breaks? 
This really feels like yugioh all over again, new and returning players would be confused a lot and maybe even leave just because there's another new "pointless overcomplicated mechanic that is not explained in game at all"

Primaries got a complete rebalance like 3 years ago, melee weapons got a complete rebalance not so long ago. Frame abilites need a complete rebalance for years now. Pure/mostly CC frames are need since there are 3 nukers and a bunch of immortals who can just use the bramma/exodia contagnation/*insert any meta weapon here* and they are fine. Why would anyone use Baruuk, Ash who can nuke but they need to work for it in thier own way when mesa, saryn, equinox can nuke with a press of a button 2 out of the 3 trough walls too. 
Why would anyone use Nyx or Zephyr when they basicly useless in public and even in solo they only have use if they fit your playstyle.
Nyx went from CC queen to completly useless, her CC is no longer good enough. 
Nukers need restricsions like baruuk, CC abilites need rebalance
Nyx, Zephyr, Hydroid, Chroma need a complete rework and a good chunkc of frames need tweaks to be usefull.
All this ignoring the playerbase anger since they want challange and old things to be good but in the meantime they only use the the things that need the least amount of input to do everything(saryn, mesa, bramma)
The playerbase need to grow up, accept things and move on.

Again, I think power rebalances would be good, coupled with enemy rebalance and improved AI and/or other compensating factors. 
 

In the light of this not happening soon, a limit breaker could happen sooner, as a version has already been teased. Gating  power over 100% behind the LB creates some breathing room to make difficulty come from greater dynamism instead of pure stat scales. Yes, this imperfect. Certain weapons and certain Warframes will shine more under this system. There are always winners and losers. Perhaps, there could be kit upgrades for enemies, once they get another balance pass, that addresses tankers, for example. 
 

In regards to complexity, limit breakers or rage mode, is a pretty common concept. So much so, that it is a wonder that DE hasn’t implemented something sooner. As I propose the system it would encourage gameplay, deliver a respectable power display as the limit breaker is achieved.