Community Effort To Answer Recoil Vs Spread Issue On "heavy Caliber/magnum Force" (Warning: Math)

[NetSlayer]

Summary:
This is an attempt to make a constructive post which provides an answer to the "Heavy Caliber" issue.
By providing insight into the initial problem.
Then understanding DE's reasoning behind the mod change.
Recognising and accepting the problems posed with mod changes.
Concluding with community solutions that fix the initial problem in an alternative way.

Below is some basic logic showing the; Initial problem, DE's Solution, Problems posed, Community Solution.

Basics of the dilemma:
(Set as spoiler as some things may be too obvious to some)

In Warframe there are weapons which have recoil.
Some weapons have zero recoil.

Before the recent patch, the mod "Heavy Caliber" would Increase Damage and Increase Recoil by percentage.

Weapons with 0 recoil were not affected. As any percentage of 0, returns with 0.
In contrast to those using weapons with recoil this is unfair, as those without recoil deal greater damage, with no negative.

DE's Solution to the dilemma:

Change the mod, such that the negative has an effect on a weapon's stat, In this case as spread is related to gun control, it looks like the most viable option.

More information is needed on the spread mechanic. Theories of DE's solution are labelled as [DEs_#]

- [DEs_1] If the spread value of the mod is falsely increasing spread by addition (+10). Then spread can be added onto a 'zero' spread value very easily. This can be tested if increase in spread is consistent with all non spread weapons.

- [DEs_2] If the spread value of the mod is truly an increasing percentage (+10%). Then a 100% accurate weapon must have a positive spread value near 0. Increasing percentage takes it away from zero. Consistent increase in spread with each level per weapon.

- [DEs_3] If spread value of the mod is alternately increasing radius of COF of weapon by percentage (+10% to r) then a 100% accurate weapon has a very low COF approaching zero. As the r value is squared (πr² for circle at end of COF) any increase to 'r' value will exponentially increase spread with each level

Problems posed by solution:

- [DEs_1-3]: Add spread to previous weapons affected by recoil. Players may have preferred greater recoil to increase in spread with damage. Reduces sniping capability with some weapons.

- Mod Name: General trend in guns with heavy caliber bullets show increase in recoil. Name is now considered misleading. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil#Perception_of_recoil).

- Change being made without prior testing among community (Ongoing)

Community solutions:

- Solution to [DEs_1] : Return affect on spread to recoil. Add vertical recoil but with coefficients fr each weapon type. (value increase on mod card = zero recoil +(mod recoil value x coefficient) where coefficient is varied across weapon types.

- Solution to [DEs_2-3] : Return affect to recoil. If a weapon has zero recoil, then add an initial value of recoil and apply percentage increase to that value. Initial weapon recoil addition varies across weapon types. (Percentage increase applies to (zero recoil + (coefficient x initial recoil addition))

- Alternate solution [As1]: Add horizontal recoil to weapons instead. Weapons with zero vertical recoil will then have horizontal recoil.

- Alternate solution [As2]: Increase camera shake with each shot.

- Alternate solution [As3]: Reduce Mag size (larger bullets in clip trends with less bullets in clip)

 

- TheSphynx Solution [TS]: Counter Mod the changes made (+%accuracy mod) (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/120739-counter-heavy-calibers-accuracy-decrease)

- EversorMetus solution [EM]: Building on [TSs] Make -recoil mods into +accuracy mods

 

- SlyBoots solution [sB]: Add recoil to sniping weapons, Spray weapons can keep accuracy debuff.

- Brasten solution [b1]: Add ROF penalty for the increased damage instead.  

- Lyssa Solution [L1]: Create a non recoil class of weapons (Flow) that the involved corrupted mods cannot be applied to.

- VegetableBasket Solution [VB]: For continuous rifles, simply reduce/increase range with -accuracy/+accuracy, respectively.

 

______________________________________________________________________________
 
Some information that would be helpful.

Information on spread and recoil mechanic.
How do current changes to the mod affect each weapon?
Is the increase in spread consistent among all weapons with initially 100% accuracy?
Is there any other side effects this could have to the mechanics involved?
Are there any weapons that benefit from the increase in spread?

Edit:
-Removed unnecessary spoiler tags on community solutions
-Added further community solutions

Edited October 17, 2013 by NetSlayer

[TheSphynx]

Easiest solution.. Add a +% Accuracy Mod. All Corrupt Mods have a single counterpart mod to either decrease or completely remove the negative affect of each Corrupt Mod. For example, Critical Delay's negative effect can be removed with either Shred or Speed Trigger. Which leads to these questions:

1. Where is the '+% Accuracy' mod?
2. What will the '+% Accuracy' mod do to weapons without Heavy Caliber or Magnum Force?
3. What is the difference between DE's 'Recoil' and 'Accuracy'?
4. After releasing these mods, (not taking into effect weapons without recoil) wouldn't you think they would use their heads this time and release a counterpart mod with these changes?
5. Why was this (non-negative effect) Corrupt Mod the only one changed, when there are others that are just as (or even more) unbalanced?

As for a less mathematical discussion about this topic, visit this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/120739-counter-heavy-calibers-accuracy-decrease

Edited October 17, 2013 by TheSphynx

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

+1 for Accuracy Increase mod. This will not only make Corrupted mods worth it, but also will help weapons that suffer because of their spread (looking at Gorgon and Supra).

[Llyssa]

I suggested elsewhere, and feel it's worth reiterating:

Solution: "Flow" weapon class. Weapons that don't "fire", but rather allow ammo to "flow" out of them. All of the null-recoil weapons would be in it, as they all offer continuous flowing fire until the clip is empty.

 

"Flow" class is much the same as "bow" and "sniper"--a subclass of rifle that can use *most*, but not *all* rifle mods, and has some "flow" specific mods as well.

 

The split, for now, would be very minimal--the (ex)recoil mods cannot be equipped on "flow" weapons. In the future, similar to snipers and bows, more expansion of the differences may become available, but, for now, it would fix the problem(penalty free overboost to a weapon) without radically ruining gameplay for other weapons.

 

Once this is implimented, the (ex)recoil mods go back to the way they were--having extra recoil, in a way that can be managed with player skill and mod usage.

 

This also ends the issues that will surely arise in future mods and designs, before they ever come to pass. There's no reason this won't happen eventually, it's just a question of why it hasn't happened yet.

[Brasten]

How about changing the penalty once more to a Rate of Fire penalty. Unfortunately there is functional way to add Recoil to the recoilless weapons plus the rocil penalty tends to be non-issue for single shot weapons like snipers and bows. It makes recoil a bad mechanic to balance around for a universal "Rifle" mod that can be added to both Sniper and Special weapons. I strongly suggest looking at using Rate of Fire reduction as a way to balance this mod. The big issue were weapons like Flux, Torid, and Acrid getting serious damage bonus with no downside. An increase in their DPS if you will.

By carefully fiddling with the DPS calculation you can arrive at spread for Heavy Caliber that persevers the DPS of weapons but functionally changes the how these weapons will play. Slower rate of fire in exchange for harder hits. This makes it a game style changing mod. The same process can be applied to the pistol version of this mod.

Heavy Caliber as RoF penalty:

Damage RoF

15.00% -13.00%

30.00% -23.00%

45.00% -31.00%

60.00% -37.00%

75.00% -42.00%

90.00% -47.00%

105.00% -51.00%

120.00% -54.00%

135.00% -57.00%

150.00% -60.00%

165.00% -62.00%

The only possible problem is the Continues style weapons, which need a look at anyways to see how positive RoF is working (or not) on them.

*edit*

Beyond the super accurate weapons like Flux, sniper weapons and special 'one shot' weapons like the Ogris are not appreciably impacted by the Recoil mechanics of this game. Warframe has an auto-recenter function and with weapons with a slow enough rate of fire will return to center on their own before the next shot goes off. This only a few weapons like the Grakata fire fast enough with enough recoil/climb to properly demonstrate the recoil effect. This makes messing with weapon recoil a poor choice in Warframe as a balance point, as it should be. Warframe is a fast moving run and gun style, having to readjust aim after each shot or series of shots is not in-keeping with that style. Perhaps, and I hate to suggest it, we need a set of weapons that are indeed harder hitting but do not have innate recoil correction and have fairly high climb (say return the Gorgon and Boar in such a situation). Tring to use Accurecy or Recoil on this kind of generic Rifle/Sniper/Speical mod doesn't work. Forcing that penalty is only going to make it worse.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Brasten

[NetSlayer]

Easiest solution.. Add a +% Accuracy Mod. All Corrupt Mods have a single counterpart mod to either decrease or completely remove the negative affect of each Corrupt Mod. For example, Critical Delay's negative effect can be removed with either Shred or Speed Trigger. Which leads to these questions:

1. Where is the '+% Accuracy' mod?

2. What will the '+% Accuracy' mod do to weapons without Heavy Caliber or Magnum Force?

3. What is the difference between DE's 'Recoil' and 'Accuracy'?

4. After releasing these mods, (not taking into effect weapons without recoil) wouldn't you think they would use their heads this time and release a counterpart mod with these changes?

5. Why was this (non-negative effect) Corrupt Mod the only one changed, when there are others that are just as (or even more) unbalanced?

As for a less mathematical discussion about this topic, visit this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/120739-counter-heavy-calibers-accuracy-decrease

Approving less mathematical discussion. XD

Still math has it's place in warframe, most are oblivious to it. 

Will add your solution to counter mod the changes made as part of alternative solutions, with your link. If you don't mind that is?

[SlyBoots]

give snipers recoil and leave accuracy reduction for automatic/continuous weapons. the sniper users have to readjust aim between shots more, the dps weapon users have to get closer. done.

[TheSphynx]

The only possible problem is the Continues style weapons, which need a look at anyways to see how positive RoF is working (or not) on them.

Continuous/Held trigger types are one of the main reasons this mod was changed in the first place. Changing it to a Fire Rate penalty would just put us back to square one. As I said, the easiest and most efficient solution is to just add a '+% Accuracy' mod. With that, you will have to decide if you can handle the negative accuracy effect OR sacrifice a mod slot to cancel/lower the negative effect.

[NetSlayer]

How about changing the penalty once more to a Rate of Fire penalty. Unfortunately there is functional way to add Recoil to the recoilless weapons plus the rocil penalty tends to be non-issue for single shot weapons like snipers and bows. It makes recoil a bad mechanic to balance around for a universal "Rifle" mod that can be added to both Sniper and Special weapons. I strongly suggest looking at using Rate of Fire reduction as a way to balance this mod. The big issue were weapons like Flux, Torid, and Acrid getting serious damage bonus with no downside. An increase in their DPS if you will.

By carefully fiddling with the DPS calculation you can arrive at spread for Heavy Caliber that persevers the DPS of weapons but functionally changes the how these weapons will play. Slower rate of fire in exchange for harder hits. This makes it a game style changing mod. The same process can be applied to the pistol version of this mod.

Heavy Caliber as RoF penalty:

Damage RoF

15.00% -13.00%

30.00% -23.00%

45.00% -31.00%

60.00% -37.00%

75.00% -42.00%

90.00% -47.00%

105.00% -51.00%

120.00% -54.00%

135.00% -57.00%

150.00% -60.00%

165.00% -62.00%

The only possible problem is the Continues style weapons, which need a look at anyways to see how positive RoF is working (or not) on them.

but then where does this leave mods like critical delay? 

As for continuous fire. I have no idea how to go about it. 

[TheSphynx]

Approving less mathematical discussion. XD

Still math has it's place in warframe, most are oblivious to it. 

Will add your solution to counter mod the changes made as part of alternative solutions, with your link. If you don't mind that is?

Thanks, I greatly appreciate it. I will also add a link to this thread as well on my post. Hopefully, the more it's seen, the better the chances we get a solution.

[EversorMetus]

Should just make Vile Precision + Accuracy/- Fire Rate instead of - Recoil/- Fire Rate. It is "Precision" after all.

Edited October 17, 2013 by EversorMetus

[TheSphynx]

Should just make Vile Precision + Accuracy/- Fire Rate instead of - Recoil/+ Fire Rate. It is "Precision" after all.

This is a great idea. Actually, the best one so far. If they were to just add a '+% Accuracy' mod, equipping that and Heavy Caliber would make HC 100% beneficial (except sacrificing a  2nd mod slot). Heavy Caliber + Suggested Vile Precision would at least be a trade off. You would have to decide if you can handle the negative accuracy effect OR sacrifice a mod slot AND fire rate to cancel/lower the negative accuracy effect.

Edited October 17, 2013 by TheSphynx

[Brasten]

Continuous/Held trigger types are one of the main reasons this mod was changed in the first place. Changing it to a Fire Rate penalty would just put us back to square one. As I said, the easiest and most efficient solution is to just add a '+% Accuracy' mod. With that, you will have to decide if you can handle the negative accuracy effect OR sacrifice a mod slot to cancel/lower the negative effect.

The continuous weapons need a look at their code, they behave badly with existing RoF mods and they shouldn't. The fix is a deeper level bug fix so they actually play nice with RoF changes. Adding a mod is a way of saying "this mechanic is broken" lets fix it with more mods, as DE tired to do with blocking.

but then where does this leave mods like critical delay?

As for continuous fire. I have no idea how to go about it.

Vile Precision was supposed to be the counter to Heavy Caliber which lost its value (what little it had) when DE made the switch. Frankly Vile Precision was Mod looking for hole to fill and it found it by being Heavy Calibers pair buddy... after Stabilizer. Critical Delay is actually an example of trading immediate damage for sustained damage. It is also an example of where DE really should look at the code and how continuous weapons interact with RoF mods.

Basically I'm saying take out the middle man of Vile Precision.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Brasten

[Azure_Kytia]

Let's assume that recoil is calculated using floats because accuracy, and  that for some reason, 10 is a crazy base value that just seems to work fine for something.

 

if (Primary.hasModEquipped("Heavy Caliber")){

       if (Primary.defaultRecoil == 0f){

               Primary.EffectiveRecoil = 10f * (1 + (EquippedMod.Rank("Heavy Caliber") / 10));

       }

       else {

              Primary.EffectiveRecoil = Primary.defaultRecoil * (1 + (EquippedMod.Rank("Heavy Caliber") / 10));

       }

}

Edited October 17, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[NetSlayer]

Further community solutions added to main post, If you would prefer not to have them there then please let me know.
Also:

 

The continuous weapons need a look at their code, they behave badly with existing RoF mods and they shouldn't. The fix is a deeper level bug fix so they actually play nice with RoF changes. Adding a mod is a way of saying "this mechanic is broken" lets fix it with more mods, as DE tired to do with blocking.

Vile Precision was supposed to be the counter to Heavy Caliber which lost its value (what little it had) when DE made the switch. Frankly Vile Precision was Mod looking for hole to fill and it found it by being Heavy Calibers pair buddy... after Stabilizer. Critical Delay is actually an example of trading immediate damage for sustained damage. It is also an example of where DE really should look at the code and how continuous weapons interact with RoF mods.

Basically I'm saying take out the middle man of Vile Precision.

 

If the exchange for damage was ROF
ROF penalty is already on a mod that increases crit chance...
Then what happens to those who are in the odd case of using both mods?

On another note what if there were a damage timer for continuous weapons.
Beam is focused on enemy. Clock goes round once a second. When it completes a revolution. Damage is outputted.
Increase in damage Increases The damage output per revolution of applied beam.
Increase in ROF decreases the time taken for one revolution when applying beam to enemy.

Will add an animated gif of this idea soon.

[Brasten]

Further community solutions added to main post, If you would prefer not to have them there then please let me know.

Also:

 

 

If the exchange for damage was ROF

ROF penalty is already on a mod that increases crit chance...

Then what happens to those who are in the odd case of using both mods?

On another note what if there were a damage timer for continuous weapons.

Beam is focused on enemy. Clock goes round once a second. When it completes a revolution. Damage is outputted.

Increase in damage Increases The damage output per revolution of applied beam.

Increase in ROF decreases the time taken for one revolution when applying beam to enemy.

Will add an animated gif of this idea soon.

They are in the same place that adding Heavy Caliber + Vile Precision and Critical Delay did before DE made the change. And will be in a similar place if they change Vile Precision to an Accuracy boost. As I said, my solution removes the middle man of Vile Precision.

Lets look at use cases between HC and CD. The stand out weapon is obviously the Soma with its Crit Multiplier of x3. That means 300% damage on crit compared to HCs piddly 165%. That isn't taking into account Vitel Strike and other crip damage boosters. Using HC over CD on a high crit weapon is mathematically a poor choice for DPS. But that's a choice, maybe there are people who are willing to turn their weapons into sniper rifle weapons with very low fire rates but very high alpha strike on sure critical hits. A Soma shooting only 0.3 shots a second (before Speed Trigger).

It presents a choice, crit build or base damage build or one shot wonder build. Build diversity! Again to make the point, this is where you'd be at with HC+VP and CD prior to the change.

Second use case, Snipetron Vandal (x1.5/20%) Crit, 1.5 fire rate. This is where the use of HC and CD gets a bit tricker to judge.

====

I actually need to go find a Conclave buddy to come shoot me with a Flux with different RoF fire mods on (or is willing to come get shot) and test to see if the RoF increase on Speed Trigger is not working. If it is working then there would be no issue with messing with RoF at all.

[Thelonious]

I'm personally all against adding mods with limited use like +%accuracy.

Apart from counter-balancing the effects of Heavy Caliber, how many weapons would really benefit from it?

The answer is "really not many". I only have the Gorgon in mind, and it's retired as we speak. (Shotguns could use a -%spread one though, but damage fall off negates most of the benefits anyway)

 

So you're just gonna implement another Thunderbolt/Firestorm into the game. Reminds me of U6 with all those weapon-specific mods we had (100% multishot for the Burston! Yay me!)

You'll see how happy you are when you get your 1000th drop of it. 

More loot table dilution plox!

 

One of the easiest solution is in Azure_Kyte script. But I'd prefer it to be restricted to vertical recoil, it gives a better realistic feeling to shooting an overpowered weapon, as in: "I've got ALL THE DAMAGE MODS EQUIPED, MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!" *shoots frantically around*

 

Oh, and I think I speak for the Association For the Prevention of Epilepsy (I'm sure it exists somewhere...) when I ask: No camera shake please.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Thelonious

[Brasten]

(Shotguns could use a -%spread one though, but damage fall off negates most of the benefits anyway)

FYI they have one of those. It decreases shotgun fire rate. Hm... a pattern emerges more damage on target = slower fire rate.

[Thelonious]

FYI they have one of those. It decreases shotgun fire rate. Hm... a pattern emerges more damage on target = slower fire rate.

 

Hmm, about that, I'm not sure equiping a +damage/-fire rate would be worth the cost actually. Especially with Heavy Caliber at max rank (16 energy), when I could get a Faction specific mod for 30% more raw damage (no minus) and 9 energy cost.

 

Could you do the math, maybe? I think you proposed some mod stats in an earlier post.

[NetSlayer]

Let's assume that recoil is calculated using floats because accuracy, and  that for some reason, 10 is a crazy base value that just seems to work fine for something.

 

if (Primary.hasModEquipped("Heavy Caliber")){

       if (Primary.defaultRecoil == 0f){

               Primary.EffectiveRecoil = 10f * (1 + (EquippedMod.Rank("Heavy Caliber") / 10));

       }

       else {

              Primary.EffectiveRecoil = Primary.defaultRecoil * (1 + (EquippedMod.Rank("Heavy Caliber") / 10));

       }

}

I'll admit I kind of went eeeee! when I saw this code but yeah I see what's being done here...I think.

If the weapon has zero recoil, add an actual recoil value and have that new recoil be affected by the mod, correct?

Else If the weapon already has recoil then work off that value.

This is like the solution to [DEs_2-3]. But with the initial value differing across weapons. For example slightly higher for snipers and slightly lower for pistols. Does not make 'sense' with knives however.

This is some solid logical code though, I'm not sure what programming language Warframe uses. 

 

 

FYI they have one of those. It decreases shotgun fire rate. Hm... a pattern emerges more damage on target = slower fire rate.

With shotguns it's the shape of shot pattern hitting the target, becoming smaller. All pellets hit the target at the same time. With rifles it's 1 bullet at a time (unless it's multishot). It's good suggestion to lower fire rate but it doesn't seem right that there is another mod that also negatives fire rate for rifles. As you have said weapons without ROF then come into question. Leading onto a whole new set of problems to be solved.

[Azure_Kytia]

Yeah, it's bad. It was more pseudocode if anything, sorry.

 

Essentially, if a weapon doesn't have recoil, add some and then multiply it by 1.0-2.0

 

Otherwise, just multiply the preexisting recoil by 1.0-2.0

[Brasten]

With shotguns it's the shape of shot pattern hitting the target, becoming smaller. All pellets hit the target at the same time. With rifles it's 1 bullet at a time (unless it's multishot). It's good suggestion to lower fire rate but it doesn't seem right that there is another mod that also negatives fire rate for rifles. As you have said weapons without ROF then come into question. Leading onto a whole new set of problems to be solved.

Did a quick reconfirm on the RoF issue with continuous weapons. Its somthing DE needs to fix anyways if they (and they will) keep adding more continuous fire weapons. Currently that is only 4 (Flux, Ignis, Synapse, Spectra) and all Clan Tech. Also lets get real those 4 aren't really hurt by the 'wobble' mod as it stands. The reason why HC and MF were 'bad' in its original form wasn't just because of those of those continuous weapons, but because of the wide array of other low to no recoil weapons (Flux Rifle, Ignis, Synapse, Paris & Prime, Dread, Lanka, Ogris, etc) plus(Kunai, Despair, Hikou, Embolist, Spectra, Acrid). Many of these same weapons have now been rendered rather pointless with the inaccuracy and the 4 contentious weapons are still actually very good choices.

This mod has just highlighted that there is a bug/issue with continuous weapons that needs to be fixed sooner rather than later. Has anyone tested to see if a reduced fire rate on the Flux actually INCREASES damage? I know that because of the way the mechanics work if you boost RoF it actually lowers their damage output since it just increases ammo consumption without corresponding damage output, but what happens in the reverse case? Sadly I don't have Vile Precision nor Critical Delay to test that with.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Brasten

[VegetableBasket]

I wouldn't mind either horizontal or vertical recoil on my flux rifle (my main primary), but just making it so I can't use it on my flux rifle, I'd be really upset, as I spent a lot of cores/credits on levelling it. Another option is to reduce range on continuous weapons (or increase range with accuracy mods!)

[NetSlayer]

I wouldn't mind either horizontal or vertical recoil on my flux rifle (my main primary), but just making it so I can't use it on my flux rifle, I'd be really upset, as I spent a lot of cores/credits on levelling it. Another option is to reduce range on continuous weapons (or increase range with accuracy mods!)

I can't believe no one's ever thought of that... (added to main post)

[darkino]

Besides the swap of Recoil to Accuracy , did anyone actually questioned himself as to why :

 

there was +165 Recoil and now there is only -55Accuracy ?

 

More precise , the absolute numeric value ( from 165 to 55 ) ?

 

This is a very important factor also.

 

Maybe someone from the staff would be kind to give an answer here.(not that I actually expect, since it can be related to "secret" game mechanics and can not be disclosed ) .

Edited October 18, 2013 by darkino