Master Chief Vs. Warframe

[Miose]

Never Underestimate the power of the human spirit! lol

 

 

Also just thought I'd drop this right here... Seems kind of relevant if you haven't read it, it's pretty cool!

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/sep/26/physicists-create-molecules-of-light

[Enmity666]

^

I lol'd. Dat Guy's face.

 

Acrid using flat-chested Trinity solos Mastur Chieff GG.

[[DE]Skree]

The Chief and the Warframes wouldn't fight, they'd nod to eachother like bro's and work together.

[asatti2]

We can all agree Dark Sector has a crappy Story (No offense DE but it really sucks) and so does Warframe. We know nothing of our Virtual World, where Tennos are from and how Warframe Universe works. Thus we can say, we cannot root out where our strengths originated nor why General Sargas Ruk condemns us fighting for worthless cause though everyone knew at the moment our Tennos woke up from their respective cryosleeps, we did nothing but fight for nothing, no cause. 

 

But in Halo, the Game enlightens you, inspires you, surprises you and during every cutscenes, you sometimes wonder what will happen in the future-on the Real World that this little Game might sprung to life-to think on what would happen if this becomes our Reality.

 

 

 

Conclusion, Warframe sucks against Halo. We need a storyline here DE! Heed our cause!

I double that

[Kefaljohn]

I double that

You know 0 times two is still 0 right?

[Kefaljohn]

The Chief and the Warframes wouldn't fight, they'd nod to eachother like bro's and work together.

Unfortunately ,Sire Skree,the OP requested what would happen in a fight and how many Tenno it will take to being him down,not a tea party or broma-friendship

 

Though for some reason I find the Grineer being more similair to the UNSC and their Spartan Project than the Tenno,though I'm pretty sure the Grineer have it as a Modus operandi than actual desperation...

Besides the obvious difference in morality anyway...

[ValhaHazred]

The Chief and the Warframes wouldn't fight, they'd nod to eachother like bro's and work together.

I figured the UNSC would be the kind of thing that Tenno would fight. Last I checked they where a moderately tyrannical military dictatorship ruled by a shadowy organization that sounds like every anti-government conspiracy theory came true at the same time.

Before the Covanent showed up Spartans where intended as jack booted thugs to put down rebelions and political uprisings.

[McDili]

Really comparing Halo to Warframe is impossible.

 

There's so many references to the book of Halo, and then there's references from the in-game mechanics of warframe.

 

If you use the game mechanics of one game, you have to use the mechanics of the other.

 

 

 

But really, this is just Superman vs Batman with a different name. It's pointless to argue about because writers make their characters overpowered in any environment they put them in.

[Miose]

Really comparing Halo to Warframe is impossible.

 

There's so many references to the book of Halo, and then there's references from the in-game mechanics of warframe.

 

If you use the game mechanics of one game, you have to use the mechanics of the other.

 

 

 

But really, this is just Superman vs Batman with a different name. It's pointless to argue about because writers make their characters overpowered in any environment they put them in.

I've been saying this the entire time...

[Senteth]

To me it's more of a sliding scale. Each side in a debate should be judged based on the best knowledge we have of their capabilites. For settings with detailed and well-fleshed out backgrounds, multiple books, tv miniseries, multiple games, numerous cutscenes, and oodles of lore, this is comparatively easy. (unless it's gotten to the point where there's just so much stuff that everything ends up contradicting itself) For settings that don't have as much detail, we have to go on what we have. If all there is is gameplay, then that's the only metric we have for drawing conclusions about their abilites. If there are in-game descriptions, manual entries, etc, then those take precedence. Cutscenes are even better, as are novels or visual media.

 

When two sources contradict each other, go with the one that has higher precedence. If Master Chief moves like an old man with arthritic knees in gameplay, and in novels he is shown to be able to run at 55 kph without tiring, then you go with the novel. Lower-tier sources can be used to support or corroborate higher tier sources, but not to disprove them.

 

My personal canon hierarchy goes something like this:

Gameplay<in-game descriptions<manual entries<in-game cutscenes<character dialogue=plot points=pre-rendered cutscenes<movies=novels<word of god from the people who made it

 

Ideally it should all be judged on a case-by-case basis, using common sense as much as possible to tie all the loose ends and inconsistences together, or making exceptions to the normal rules if there's enough reason to warrant it.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Senteth

[ValhaHazred]

I'm with Senteth on the sliding scale and common sense factor. All I've been using to debate is stuff seen in trailers and explicitley stated in the in-game information; planetary descriptions, weapon and mod blurbs and the lore tab.

I don't think I've stated anything purely gameplay.

[Quasar-Sandwich]

The Flux rifle is armor ignore so just spray him with a few seconds of that and his body will be cut up into nice little pieces?

[Stinker]

I could totally see a spartan and a tenno having at it. 2 highly trained and modified beings cross paths while out on a mission in the same area. A spartan is a tactful stealth first kinda guy and depending on the tenno so are they. Assuming the spartan notices the tenno first, he'll watch also assuming he's not already engaged with the covenant/flood/whatever. He would not attack nor approach a lone tenno. No combat would commence.

 

If the tenno was engaged with his enemy he'd go straight to enemy of my enemy is my friend and assist the tenno since most tenno still appear to be incredibly human like he'd just assume civilian or just another human in general. No combat would commence. (Tenno would have to be a jerk to do anything)

 

If a tenno was engaging enemies foreign to the spartan he'd merely observe and refuse any instinct to interfere. He knows neither friend or foe in the situation. Spartan would return his focus to his objective. No combat would commence.

 

If a tenno crossed paths with a spartan while remaining undetected, he would act the same in the first situation assuming the spartan was alone. The tenno would be puzzled if the spartan was engaging grineer and would watch. If he was engaged with corpus, the tenno will have a much higher chance of simply choosing to engage all of them. If he chooses the non grineer force first the chance of striking the spartan reduces as he has more time to realize it's not a grineer and more than likely a friend.

 

Upon actually engaging in combat, the spartan would slink into stealth attempting to glean any information he can about his enemy. If retreat is not an option they are probably within' very short range of each other which would result in a duel of wits, reflexes, and general prowess.

 

We know tenno have reflexes/precision/forethought JUST SOME MECHANIC to use a blade to reduce the amount of bullets striking his body (despite what people think, it's really not unreasonable to predict bullet trajectory and move an object into said trajectory. Not necessarily blocking bullets, but predicting where an unfired bullet is going to go. Writers use this often to make a hero seem much more awesome. Then there's always Gun kata...)

so we can reason the tenno has very good control. he is a ninja afterall. The rest of his stats aren't really known. Anyone have the time to calculate how fast we run ingame? What about zoren coptering? We don't really have anything to measure their strength by yet (afaik) so we need some info.

 

 

Then we have the spartan. Highly trained and highly augmented. Reflexes started at a rating of something like 20 miliseconds where the average human is 215 miliseconds (not the easiest thing to measure, so let these values describe unassisted standard reflexes. "at rest" if you will. No adrenaline/A.I./machines/focus/whatever you want to say that can augment reaction times) Outside of their armor a spartan can lift 3 times their weight, their weight being double that of your average human. So effectively 6 times the bodyweight of your average person.( At present, there are only 4 or 5 humans in history that have accomplished 4 - 5 x their bodyweight. So at default, a spartan is stronger than any human in history) Spartans can run at a consistent peak of 38 mph and sprint up to 65 mph (the fastest human ever recorded was 28mph, A cheetah can burst over 62 mph, and your horse tops out at about 55 mph.)

 

We know what spartans can do, what about a tenno?

The argument of their weaponry needs to just stop. Yeah. I can go to level 1 mercury and obliterate everything with a single bullet too. I can also hang out in a defense until wave 80 and have my guns be nothing more than nerf guns. For the sake of this great debate we have to assume the Braton = Assault Rifle. Snipers in the halo universe are considerably more powerful than any found in the warframe universe but the corpus weapons probably about equal plasma weapons and grineer weapons = brute weapons (what few similarities they have). Then we have the odds and ends like the Soma which really just comes down to a fully automatic Burst Rifle from halo 2/3/reach. Yes. This is a very powerful weapon. Very accurate and very powerful. The acrid functionality is all but the same as a late needler. You stack many slow moving projectiles to deal massive damage quickly. Only difference is the needler is less efficient since it has a threshold to deal it's payload where the acrid deals a consistent amount per bullet.

 

Weapons like the torid / ignis would be ineffective against the chief simply because he's wearing the toughest biohazard/atmosphere reentry suit around (Spartans jump back to earth on many occasions throughout their lore. It's almost like it's just the fun way to get down from space for spartans. "See you guys down there -swan dives off into space-" Tenno, on the other hand, would suffocate. Their armor isn't capable of recycling their oxygen super efficiently and their shields' power supply is directly linked to whatever the process is to make them more life giving air. Their shields are also incapable of shielding them from airborne pathogens/acid/THE DANG POISON.)

 

 

 

Before we can really argue this, we need to know the stats/cards tenno hold.

At present, spartans appear to outmatch a tenno in both speed and strength.

[Kwinne]

[Eidolon_Slayer]

Started an interesting topic, that is all.

 

 

The Flux rifle is armor ignore so just spray him with a few seconds of that and his body will be cut up into nice little pieces?

Heat based weapons are the MJOLNIR's weakness.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Mikovsky

[ValhaHazred]

So Ignis then?

[Miose]

So Ignis then?

sure why not

[LordOda]

I believe this video is relevant as a defining measure of Master Chief's physical limits... mathmatically and figuratively.

 

[Senteth]

We know tenno have reflexes/precision/forethought JUST SOME MECHANIC to use a blade to reduce the amount of bullets striking his body (despite what people think, it's really not unreasonable to predict bullet trajectory and move an object into said trajectory. Not necessarily blocking bullets, but predicting where an unfired bullet is going to go. Writers use this often to make a hero seem much more awesome. Then there's always Gun kata...)

so we can reason the tenno has very good control. he is a ninja afterall. The rest of his stats aren't really known. Anyone have the time to calculate how fast we run ingame? What about zoren coptering? We don't really have anything to measure their strength by yet (afaik) so we need some info.

Did some tests in the dojo's obstacle course, measuring landscape features against a Warframe's height (turns out the large square tiles come in convenient sizes of roughly 2 meters, making measuring easy) and an Excaliber with no mobility mods was able to reach speeds of 30-43 kph by my (very) rough tests. (sometime I'll have to record a video and do frame by frame to see exactly how much time it takes rather than looking at the timer in the corner) In-game he has a speed modifier of 1, making him the baseline frame to measure the others by. Loki has a speed of 1.25, so that means he'd go 37.5-55.9 kph with a rush mod slapped on. Various weapons and acrobatics can greatly increase your speed from this baseline however, such as zorencoptering or launching yourself across an entire room in moments by starting a wall-run and then flinging yourself off the wall. So baseline running speed favors the Spartan by a good margin, while conditional running speed depending on terrain and weapon/mod loadout goes to the Tenno by an equally large margin. In practical terms, I'd call it a draw.

 

Strength-wise, there are no instances of Tenno lifting anything. There are however a number of impressive strength feats shown with their melee weapons. First off, let's look at the size of your average Grineer. With the exception of the Ballistas and Scorpions, all the Grineer tower over your Warframe by a good foot or more and are built like bricks. Heavy units are even larger. Using some online calculators, I estimated the surface area of the average unarmored Grineer to be around 26,000 cm^2. We know carbon steel makes up a good portion of their armor, if not all of it. We can also see its thickness thanks to the way our swords and guns are able to gut them like fish. Measuring is difficult, but I'd estimate a good 2 cm on average for the non-heavily armored parts. The density of steel varies somewhat, but 7.85 g/cm^3 is about average.

 

Plugging it all together, that gives us 408.2 kg. Add to it the weight of the Grineer itself (estimated from the average unarmored Spartan's weight) and that goes up to 523.2 kg. This is just the regular armor layer. As I'm sure we're all aware of, Grineer are ridiculously top-heavy, featuring massive pauldrons, hunchbacked armor, and bulging legs. Eyeballing it, it looks like they're carrying around the equivalent of two car engines on their shoulders, back and legs, increasing the weight by an additional 540 kg or so. Much of the Grineer's body has been replaced by machinery, but I won't speculate as to how much that has increased their mass. So far we're at roughly 1.063 tons for the average Grineer.

 

Now that we've established a reference point we can look at the strength feats demonstrated by the Tenno in melee. Most melee weapons rely on cutting/piercing blades for their damage, which muddles the issue considerably, but there are a few blunt-force weapons in their arsenal, almost all of which are capable of flinging a Grineer over a dozen meters through the air. You can punch a grineer with the Kogake, either tossing them like a ragdoll or pummeling them against the ground so hard they explode, (!) throw a boomerang at them hard enough to send them flying, whack them with a Fragor and watch them soar, hit them with a metal staff and do the same thing, etc. Thrown daggers carry enough force behind them to lift a Grineer off their feet and send them backwards, though not to the extent that contact melee weapons do. (arguably, most of their energy goes into penetration) A Tenno that grabs onto a wall can fling himself across an entire room with ease. There's enough evidence for me to conclude that a Tenno's upper body strength is insane, and very much on the same level as a Spartan.

 

 

Then we have the spartan. Highly trained and highly augmented. Reflexes started at a rating of something like 20 miliseconds where the average human is 215 miliseconds (not the easiest thing to measure, so let these values describe unassisted standard reflexes. "at rest" if you will. No adrenaline/A.I./machines/focus/whatever you want to say that can augment reaction times) Outside of their armor a spartan can lift 3 times their weight, their weight being double that of your average human. So effectively 6 times the bodyweight of your average person.( At present, there are only 4 or 5 humans in history that have accomplished 4 - 5 x their bodyweight. So at default, a spartan is stronger than any human in history) Spartans can run at a consistent peak of 38 mph and sprint up to 65 mph (the fastest human ever recorded was 28mph, A cheetah can burst over 62 mph, and your horse tops out at about 55 mph.)

As you mentioned above, there are a couple ways the Tenno could be achieving their feat of blocking bullets. They could be simply reacting and moving in bullet time, (the arm speed of a Tenno throwing the Hikou with speed mods is superhuman to put it mildly, which lends some credence to the idea they do it this way) or they could be analyzing the position the enemy gun is pointed at and calculating where they need to put their sword without needing to react to the bullets themselves. (they do like to add neural interfaces as a helmet component, lending credence to the idea that they're using them to aid in their targeting and precision) Both methods have major implications for a Tenno's combat ability. Method 1 means that Tenno have bullet time reflexes, while method 2 requires a level of insane precision and spatial awareness that easily translate into aiming skills that would make Linda jealous, and also requires high reflexes. (though nowehere near as high as would be required if they were reacting to the incoming bullets themselves) Both methods also require a good deal of strength to keep the blade steady when geting hit with 15mm bullets or heavy machine gun fire from a gun large enough to be a major vehicle-mounted weapon. (which ties in with the earlier stength analysis)

 

We know what spartans can do, what about a tenno?

The argument of their weaponry needs to just stop. Yeah. I can go to level 1 mercury and obliterate everything with a single bullet too. I can also hang out in a defense until wave 80 and have my guns be nothing more than nerf guns. For the sake of this great debate we have to assume the Braton = Assault Rifle. Snipers in the halo universe are considerably more powerful than any found in the warframe universe but the corpus weapons probably about equal plasma weapons and grineer weapons = brute weapons (what few similarities they have). Then we have the odds and ends like the Soma which really just comes down to a fully automatic Burst Rifle from halo 2/3/reach. Yes. This is a very powerful weapon. Very accurate and very powerful. The acrid functionality is all but the same as a late needler. You stack many slow moving projectiles to deal massive damage quickly. Only difference is the needler is less efficient since it has a threshold to deal it's payload where the acrid deals a consistent amount per bullet.

I agree that level scaling is probably an abstraction of the game and not something that applies to the universe outside of game mechanics, but at the same time it's equally ridiculous to assume that the weapons are equal with each other simpy because of their roles, particularly in light of the visual carnage they inflict on enemies. The durability of lvl 30 enemies seems to me to be the best baseline, since it's the same level that your frame can reach and represents an 'average' difficulty enemy in game terms. Lvl 60's are elite units with top of the line gear and represent a challenge to the average Tenno, while lvl 90's and above are found on mutated void creatures and represent the highest challenge outside of infinitely-scaling defense/survival missions, which I'm sure we can all agree is just game mechanics. 

 

With lvl 30 grineer, a MK-1 Braton isn't particularly effective without mods, but can still kill them fairly easily with a good loadout, and can easily inflict horrific wounds, such as amputating limbs or blowing platter-sized holes through torsos and ~4cm of armor. 

 

Halo Sniper rifles may be powerful, but I missed the part where they cut 7-foot tall armored and shielded supersoldiers in half with a single shot to the torso, something the Lanka does with chilling regularity, even against many higher-level enemies.

 

 

Boltors canonically pin enemies to walls, implying truly silly amounts of energy for a gun, far in excess of almost any projectile weapon in Halo. (you'd have to ask MJ12 Commando here on the forum for more info, I recall he had some calcs about the minimum amounts of energy needed to do something like that and it was pretty crazy)

 

Acrids and Needlers are two entirely different beasts. The effects of Needlers upon hitting an enemy are fairly well described in Halo, and they utterly pale in comparison to a weapon that can disintegrate an average enemy combatant in just a couple hits. (my Acrid regularly one-shots lvl 50 grineer and above) Not just kill, disintegrate.

 

The Miter can be fired through over a meter of solid metal even without mods, and still have enough energy left over to bisect a 7 foot tall supersoldier.

 

The Flux Rifle is well-known for acting like a laser chainsaw, dicing up hordes of heavily-armored and shielded combatants in moments and leaving their smoking dismembered corpses lying on the ground.

 

The Gorgon is a heavy machine gun large enough to be a vehicle mounted weapon and is typically only wielded by 12 foot-tall cyborgs with artificial limbs. (once again, the fact that Tenno can wield them as well says good things about their strength)

 

A number of weapons ignore armor altogether. (more Orokin space magic at work, or just really good at penetration?)

 

The description of the Paris makes it clear that it has more in common with a railgun than an ordinary bow, and can violently throw 1-ton grineer backwards with enough force to kill multiple targets in a line and pin enemies to walls.

 

The Dread has a naughty habit of cleaving enemies from head to groin with its bladed arrows, something its fluff description canonically supports. (though not stated outright, it's probably magnetically-propelled like the Paris' arrows are)

 

 

Warframe weapons are downright silly in their strength and would probably feel right at home in an over the top setting like Warhammer 40k.

[edit: color code is acting all wonky, pretend the above is red. XD]

 

 

Weapons like the torid / ignis would be ineffective against the chief simply because he's wearing the toughest biohazard/atmosphere reentry suit around (Spartans jump back to earth on many occasions throughout their lore. It's almost like it's just the fun way to get down from space for spartans. "See you guys down there -swan dives off into space-" Tenno, on the other hand, would suffocate. Their armor isn't capable of recycling their oxygen super efficiently and their shields' power supply is directly linked to whatever the process is to make them more life giving air. Their shields are also incapable of shielding them from airborne pathogens/acid/THE DANG POISON.)

However the poisons in Warframe work, it's clear that there's nothing 'normal' about them. Lore states that they're just as effective on synthetics as they are on organics, and can turn hordes of full-metal energy shielded robots into piles of toxic sludge in moments. Given the nanotech nature of the technocyte plague, it's not out of the question to assume that toxic ancients might be using weaponized nanotech disassemblers. (as well, most poison weapons or abilites are heavily implied to be related to the infested) Or they might be using substances that work on pure space magic, drawing their properties from the void as Vor suspects. There's no evidence to suggest Chief's shields or armor would be remotely effective at stopping him from getting turned into a smoking puddle on the ground.

 

That said, Chief does have an advantage in airless environments though.

 

 

Before we can really argue this, we need to know the stats/cards tenno hold.

At present, spartans appear to outmatch a tenno in both speed and strength.

As gone over above, strength appears to be similar or above for Tenno, and while Spartans normally have the advantage in ordinary running speed, there are times when Tenno outstrip them by a good margin. (to say nothing of the mobility powers on some frames)

Edited October 29, 2013 by Senteth

[LordOda]

Such words indeed!

 

Now, at this point, there is minimal lore on Warframe... and on the other we have an anime and countless games, comics, books etc etc for the Chief.

 

And lets not forget, in the Chief's lore he's grabbed rockets out of the air, thrown vehicles across rooms, blocked bullets with a laser sword, fell from orbit and crashed without a means to slow himself, saved the galaxy a few times and on and on...

 

What have Tenno have done in the lore? Well, we escaped from an army of clone space marines that came to abduct us (with the help of 3 friends) from an isolated facility, we've trained to be space ninjas using all manner of weapons and near-supernatural abilities, and we helped turn the tide of war between two factions. Maybe add in the stuff about the Zanuka project experimention and that's about it...

 

So either we base the hypothetical fight on Game Mechanics or... we really don't have a hope in hell of beating the Chief.

[Senteth]

Such words indeed!

 

Now, at this point, there is minimal lore on Warframe... and on the other we have an anime and countless games, comics, books etc etc for the Chief.

 

And lets not forget, in the Chief's lore he's grabbed rockets out of the air, thrown vehicles across rooms, blocked bullets with a laser sword, fell from orbit and crashed without a means to slow himself, saved the galaxy a few times and on and on...

 

What have Tenno have done in the lore? Well, we escaped from an army of clone space marines that came to abduct us (with the help of 3 friends) from an isolated facility, we've trained to be space ninjas using all manner of weapons and near-supernatural abilities, and we helped turn the tide of war between two factions. Maybe add in the stuff about the Zanuka project experimention and that's about it...

 

So either we base the hypothetical fight on Game Mechanics or... we really don't have a hope in hell of beating the Chief.

Don't forget that we worked directly for this universe's Forerunner stand-ins, are all modified by the technocyte plague, (as implied by the Golem's dialogue, and as confirmed by the devs when they let us know that Dark Sector is the past of the setting and that Hayden Tenno was the first warframe) have magical powers that corpus and grineer scientists admit shouldn't be physically possible, (Vor suspects that we're channeling the energy of the Void to do our wierd stuff, which would make us quasi-lovecraftian entities) we're immune to the Neural Sentry in the void towers that can mutate invaders into brainswashed monsters much more powerful than they were before, fluff descriptions of weapon abilities put them arms and shoulders above Halo weaponry, and more. Even without gameplay-derived feats the Tenno are still more than a match for Chief.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Senteth

[LordOda]

I wouldn't necessarily call the 1-2 sentence descriptions of weapons as lore... I mean some of them state they can kill anything in a single shot, which we all know isn't the case.

 

The plague-modification thing we can't take as Lore until there's some context of information. Yes, we're called "The Betrayers" and chances are we helped cause the downfall of the Orokin... but we don't have confirmation of that yet. We do indeed know that the events of Dark Sector are part of the Lore however...

 

Truth be told, this discussion really should take place AFTER the War Codex is released... at that point we'll have a great deal of context for many of the things we can only now assume or draw distant conclusions to.

[Senteth]

 

Truth be told, this discussion really should take place AFTER the War Codex is released... at that point we'll have a great deal of context for many of the things we can only now assume or draw distant conclusions to.

True dat. *eagerly awaits codex*

[LordOda]

True dat. *eagerly awaits codex*

 

WHAT'S TAKING SO LONG

 

....this is damn infuriating.... I'm like nerd-raging waiting for this update... I'mm'a gonna go and scan damn near everything I can...

[ValhaHazred]

I believe this video is relevant as a defining measure of Master Chief's physical limits... mathmatically and figuratively.

 

Doomguy was ROBBED. He's another guy that's better than Master Chief! Dude can run 90kmph and punch a man into a pink smear with his left hand! His invulnerability lasts 30 seconds not the 8 they gave him! They animated him moving at a crawl, not running around like a demon on crack firing his subspace loaded guns non-stop! HE SURVIVED 5 DEMONIC INVASIONS AND TOOK OVER HELL!!!! WHAT THE HELL????? AAAARGH SO ANGRY!!!! RIP AND TEAR!!!! MASTER CHIEF HAS INSUFFICIENTLY HUGE GUTS!!!!! HE'D DIE LIKE A *@##&#036; TO A CYBERDEMON!!!!