Warframe: Very Close To Pure P2W

[DetergentPod]

My only problem at this point is the slots. But since Steve already said that they're changing it I'll bare with it for the time being. Since it sucks not being able to be able to have all the weapon/frame you want in your inventory for use whenever you feel like switching to a new style of gameplay.

[Cawkslapjones]

Sorry if you're frustrated but I can't see how we can make everyone 100% happy without giving away everything for free and going out of business. :(

We have been vigilant in always providing a way for items acquired through platinum having a blueprint or credit equivalent.

Slots.

[[DE]Steve]

Slots.

Or prime gear or color pickers, etc.

Point remains: slots are diversity, not power, and a pretty conventional thing to charge for and directly affects bandwidth and server capacity.

[Feindfeuer]

Well, I stated my point of view, but I know that you have to charge people for something and i accept that you can't give in to everybodies preferences when it comes to the microtransactions... especially since probable most people will ask for that to be available for free/cheap that they want the most.

[Cawkslapjones]

Or prime gear or color pickers, etc.

Point remains: slots are diversity, not power, and a pretty conventional thing to charge for and directly affects bandwidth and server capacity.

In a game that's centered around grinding, that's your answer?

[[DE]Steve]

Yep, and I appreciate it and I'm very open to the feedback. I'm sorry if it seems like stonewalling, it is not. Its weighing options and being cautious of knee-jerk changes. Making sure we react based on what people do vs. what they say they will do. Hope that makes sense!

[Feindfeuer]

@Cawkslapjones

Though i'm undermining my own argument I have to admit that other games that are directly centered around grinding (mentioned earlier in the thread) are also charging for slots and are doing exceptionaly well.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Feindfeuer

[[DE]Steve]

In a game that's centered around grinding, that's your answer?

I'm not sure if that's a question I can answer. It is my answer. Are you saying a free-to-play game where everything powerful can be obtained through *time* and centered around collection should not have capacity purchases?

[UkyoSonoda]

Well one thought that had crossed my mind on buying weapons or warframes with platinum was this.

Plat purchased weapons and warframes come already supercharged. However you still need an open slot for them. Sales on atleast some of these might increase a bit if buying them with plat also included a new slot which the item would automatically occupy. I think part of the other issue when it comes to warframes themselves is that the prices seem to fall on a rather wide range of platinum amounts depending on the frame you get and none of them really are inherently more powerful than the other on their own most of the time.

[BraveDude8]

Fair point and something we're apt to reevaluate. At the very least rotating sales gives us a chance to experiment with that without screwing ourselves and having to raise everything (which causes more grief in that direction).

The only thing that I would suggest is giving us more inventory slots by default.

[[DE]Steve]

Well one thought that had crossed my mind on buying weapons or warframes with platinum was this.

Plat purchased weapons and warframes come already supercharged. However you still need an open slot for them. Sales on atleast some of these might increase a bit if buying them with plat also included a new slot which the item would automatically occupy. I think part of the other issue when it comes to warframes themselves is that the prices seem to fall on a rather wide range of platinum amounts depending on the frame you get and none of them really are inherently more powerful than the other on their own most of the time.

Fully agree.

[Deucalian]

I hate the slots argument. It's understandable granted but it's still an incredibly weak argument. $5 is 75 plat. A Warframe slot is 20 platinum per. It's 12 platinum for 2 weapon slots. Now the game gives you 50 platinum to start. So right there that's: 2 Warframe slots/1 Warframe slot & 4 Weapon Slots/ 8 Weapon Slots. Are you telling me that in a game that you apparently enjoy enough that you go out of your way to level every possible piece of equipment, you're not willing to spend $5 to help a company that's been a lot more generous than pretty much any other FPS company??

The Catalyst/Reactor argument is another that I don't like. You can find these in-game...and it's really not as hard as many make it out to be. "Well I have to be online at x time or I don't get it" Well we have a specific part of the forums dedicated to Alerts so you know whether it's worth your time to log in or not.

DE has already given F2P players an inch with the 50 plat...and you guys are just gonna keep pushing until you get that mile *sigh*

[Nept]

This reminds me of the WarZ forums.

"ITS NOT P2W ITS JUST DIFFERENT AND YOU DONT UNDERSTAND IT"

Why are you dying four times a day? Not a particularly constructive response, but it seems as though you're hellbent on maintaining your p2w position anyway - regardless of its accuracy.

[Cawkslapjones]

I'm not sure if that's a question I can answer. It is my answer. Are you saying a free-to-play game where everything powerful can be obtained through *time* and centered around collection should not have capacity purchases?

I thought power and purchase were disparate?

Look, you're a very intelligent individual. It can be seen both in game design and the video. And on a personal level, I really, truly respect what you've gone through to make this game happen. It took years, dedication, and tenacity. I don't believe that anyone can ever understand what you've had to do to make this game happen. And it's great, beyond beautiful, and for someone like myself who doesn't like shooters, truly a marvel. It's the only game my wife plays, and one of the very few that I do. I'm not $&*^ sucking in saying that what you've MADE happen is nothing short of an incredible feat.

With that in mind, and the excess feedback that you have (there's of course the war between people who have already paid, and those who haven't; wherein those who have just say "C'mon, it's 5 bucks just pay it" and those like myself who say "But I shouldn't have to. I want to do it out of love, not because my arm is being twisted.") You must even personally be having a conflict over the issue. I'm certain that you must be under a lot of pressure to make this game work, and as far as I can see, it mostly does. There are complaints about crafting times and so forth, but that's really irrelevant when the point of the game is simply to play the game.

You've made tremendous strides so far. The Alert system is now better by a factor of 10 compared to what it was. It's still not easy to get a Catalyst or a Reactor, but they pop up several times a week instead of just once as they used to. Additionally, it's not just 3 Steel Charges in a row, but helmets for various frames, the ocassional Orokin, and still some melee weapons. It's not perfect, but it's in a good spot where one knows that if they hang in there, they *can* get what they want, but where you yourself can also feed your kids.

I'm gonna get TL:DR pretty soon with this post, but here goes. When the boss on Exta came out, it was tough for our little group. I didn't have anything super-charged because I recognized how important frame slots would become. My wife upped her Snipetron, and another friend of mine foolishly rushed his Rhino, depleting all of his given platinum. Trinity was the first frame that I ever built, and I still had her at the time, having only built the Mag and Ash at that point. I tried changing frames for the mission, but it wasn't until I switched to the Trinity, and my friend changed back to the Volt that we had any success. The Mag was fine for pulling him to get rezzed, and the Ash did the sort of damage that's expected without super-charging anything, but having the Trinity was what made us able to down him, at last. That bit of diversity made it possible for us to progress. I started playing this game with a total of 5 people, now it's just the wife and I who play. My friend who sold off his Volt so that he could build the Frost knew it really irked him. When I pester him in out of game channels, he'll play a few rounds but has otherwise lost his taste for the game. With only 2 slots, I for sure would have sold the Trinity, and we'd not have been able to kill that boss without the help of "uber" players and he'd have quit sooner. Perhaps Bios and I would have as well.

Since then, the wife and I have been able to learn more about the game, and with the new frames and more access to super-charging we've been competent enough to tackle the higher end mod farming of Xini or Pluto. The entire point that I'm getting at is that simply having another frame that was specialized for the situation allowed our small group to climb over a mountain that many better (and better equipped players) would consider a molehill. I sincerely doubt that I'm alone in this regard.

I know that this game needs to make money to survive. I also know that when it hits open beta, you're going to have a huge influx of the curious sort. You'll probably have an even bigger bump in players when it goes "live." I also know that part of what we do here in closed beta is to give feedback to make this game work when that time DOES come. If the game doesn't "gel" then it's all for naught, prolonging the inevitable. I'm hoping that this post has made some sense, despite the rambling, because as a smart guy, you must know that beyond the "I had to sell my level 30 (that can be done in like 2 days of hardcore play) warframe" cries, there IS a problem. Free to play games live off of word of mouth, and you know as well as I do that rationality has no place in such a forum. Preying on the impatience of a player, or their desire for a special cosmetic is only natural and indeed the essence of the common F2P model. Making them feel as if they are caged in a spot where they can't do anything else in the game without spending money is a dangerous method.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

I hate the slots argument. It's understandable granted but it's still an incredibly weak argument. $5 is 75 plat. A Warframe slot is 20 platinum per. It's 12 platinum for 2 weapon slots. Now the game gives you 50 platinum to start. So right there that's: 2 Warframe slots/1 Warframe slot & 4 Weapon Slots/ 8 Weapon Slots. Are you telling me that in a game that you apparently enjoy enough that you go out of your way to level every possible piece of equipment, you're not willing to spend $5 to help a company that's been a lot more generous than pretty much any other FPS company??

The Catalyst/Reactor argument is another that I don't like. You can find these in-game...and it's really not as hard as many make it out to be. "Well I have to be online at x time or I don't get it" Well we have a specific part of the forums dedicated to Alerts so you know whether it's worth your time to log in or not.

DE has already given F2P players an inch with the 50 plat...and you guys are just gonna keep pushing until you get that mile *sigh*

Then you have new players spending plat on things other then what they will actualy need that 50 plat is for super chargers DE said so themselfs

but, SLOTS are worth more f2p wise then super chargers

As a new player I sped up a build for a conorus...... and bought a super charger way before i noticed i had slots..............

[Zonzai]

Its easy to argue that everything is "optional" and that nobody needs to buy anything to progress, and its true. As far as I know, the devs are going for "Pay-to-Shortcut" instead of "Pay-to-Win".

I think you shot your own argument in the foot there. Does that mean that you shot your foot?

Pay 4 Respawns.

Wow. Just wow.

I agree totally there. This is a really bad idea and I think Warframe will get a lot of criticism for it. DE should change it.

[SoulEchelon]

I'm sorry, but to everyone pointing out weapon/frame slots having to be paid for.....So?

A: Many, many, many other F2P games do this exact sort of thing. Yeah, okay, it's limiting but there needs to be an incentive to give the company behind this awesome game money other than "donations" and a few weapon skins here and there.

B: New slots cost barely anything. i mean, really guys? 12 Platinum for 2 weapon slots and 20 Platinum for 1 warframe slot. Seeing as 75 Plat = 5 dollars, you're getting 15 platinum per dollar. Now, granted, you must pay no less than 5 dollars to actually get Platinum, but seriously... You all are arguing about slots literally costing LESS than ONE dollar? Warframe slots cost only slightly OVER a dollar. Wow, guys.

I'm not exactly rich. As you can see I'm no Founder (yet. But if I do become one it'll probably be the lowest tier due to money being tight), but even I say these are EXTREMELY cheap. Don't tell me you can't afford 5 bucks every once in awhile to buy about 10 weapon slots, or 3 warframe slots, or a mixture of the two. Not only that, we were all given FREE 70 Platinum.

I'm all for balance and making sure a F2P game's cash shop is a good one for both F2Players and "Cash" players, but I frankly see no problem with it slots-wise.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

I'm sorry, but to everyone pointing out weapon/frame slots having to be paid for.....So?

A: Many, many, many other F2P games do this exact sort of thing. Yeah, okay, it's limiting but there needs to be an incentive to give the company behind this awesome game money other than "donations" and a few weapon skins here and there.

B: New slots cost barely anything. i mean, really guys? 12 Platinum for 2 weapon slots and 20 Platinum for 1 warframe slot. Seeing as 75 Plat = 5 dollars, you're getting 15 platinum per dollar. Now, granted, you must pay no less than 5 dollars to actually get Platinum, but seriously... You all are arguing about slots literally costing LESS than ONE dollar? Warframe slots cost only slightly OVER a dollar. Wow, guys.

I'm not exactly rich. As you can see I'm no Founder (yet. But if I do become one it'll probably be the lowest tier due to money being tight), but even I say these are EXTREMELY cheap. Don't tell me you can't afford 5 bucks every once in awhile to buy about 10 weapon slots, or 3 warframe slots, or a mixture of the two. Not only that, we were all given FREE 70 Platinum.

I'm all for balance and making sure a F2P game's cash shop is a good one for both F2Players and "Cash" players, but I frankly see no problem with it slots-wise.

If this game had the ability to hold all classes for free and 2 pages of weapons I could see it working so much better

Tf2 gives you enough space for all the weapons for free and access to all classes for free and has a PVE mode

would you play TF2 if you where limited to 2 classes at a time and could only hold 8 weapons including your defult 3

if you want all the hats you ever would want or hord items buy 100 more slots for like 5-15 bucks

If this game gave you the space for 1 of every frame + 2 pages of 8 weapon slots isntead of just 1 I could see it working

Edited February 23, 2013 by MoyuTheMedic

[SoulEchelon]

I think you shot your own argument in the foot there. Does that mean that you shot your foot?

I agree totally there. This is a really bad idea and I think Warframe will get a lot of criticism for it. DE should change it.

Respawns also cost less than a dollar, and you get 4 free respawns every single day. Not only that, EACH frame you own, no matter if it was crafted or bought, get their own respawns. There's no need to change this whatsoever. Hell, you really shouldn't be needing to revive yourself constantly anyway. I only used up my 4 revives while fighting a level 77 Jackal on Pluto that one-hit everyone constantly (during an alert yesterday), Other than that, and a few random careless moments soloing, I've NEVER had to use revives.....and my main warframe is Ember.

Long story short: You're doing something wrong. Don't blame DE for your lack of survival skills.

Tf2 gives you enough space for all the weapons for free and access to all classes for free and has a PVE mode

would you play TF2 if you where limited to 2 classes at a time and could only hold 8 weapons including your defult 3

if you want all the hats you ever would want or hord items buy 100 more slots for like 5-15 bucks

If this game gave you the space for 1 of every frame + 2 pages of 8 weapon slots isntead of just 1 I could see it working

TF2 is run by Valve. TF2 was also Pay2Play for quite a long time as well. Valve =/= Digital Extremes when it comes to money. Such a huge powerhouse of a company can happily and easily afford their F2P model. DE can't, and we as players in this SURPRISINGLY NOT "pay2win" game should be happy with what they've done with their cash shop. Hell, I frankly wouldn't mind them raising the price of some things a little - and I'll fully admit I don't have a steady job at the moment. Unlike some people, I don't enjoy trying to get everything free even when I might not be able to afford some things sometimes.

I've played a great many number of F2P titles in my time for literally a decade. DE has done a great job so far with their shop. Definitely needs tweaking here and there, but I'm in full support of it.

Edited February 23, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[G3rman]

I don't think its necessary to make players buy revives with platinum. Either make revives infinite but do something along the lines of Fable which penalizes players with greater exp/credit loss every time they die, or make revives buyable with credits.

[SoulEchelon]

I don't think its necessary to make players buy revives with platinum. Either make revives infinite but do something along the lines of Fable which penalizes players with greater exp/credit loss every time they die, or make revives buyable with credits.

No one's making anyone buy anything. Am I the only one that thinks 4 revives a day PER FRAME is perfectly fine and extremely generous?

Infact, DE? Make this game harder. Make 4 revives all you get per day - no more "refilling". We need to toughen up this generation of easymode gamers.

[G3rman]

No one's making anyone buy anything. Am I the only one that thinks 4 revives a day PER FRAME is perfectly fine and extremely generous?

Infact, DE? Make this game harder. Make 4 revives all you get per day - no more "refilling". We need to toughen up this generation of easymode gamers.

That's not how F2P games work, you don't keep someone from being able to play without having to use real currency. They market themselves to casual gamers, so they need a way for people to easily continue to play through deaths.

They are making the player buy revives should they lose all four, because chances are their fourth death will not be their last. This mainly affects new players who arguably need incentive to stick around and a proper low difficulty to start with. Making them use real currency for that is silly.

I say do away with the revives entirely and implement progressive credit/exp punishments for deaths. I am a bit too fond of Fable I think.

Edited February 23, 2013 by G3rman

[Deucalian]

The problem that those of us that have paid have with your "We want moar free stuffs" arguments is that it's entirely ludicrous. Let me ask a question: If you managed to reach say level 30 (Pretty sure it's not possible at this point but I'm just using this as an example) and were finally given access to the top-tier God mode stuffs....wouldn't you be mad if DE suddenly said "Oh yeah....remember that stuff that you needed to be level 30 for? Well now level 1s can get it. Have fun with your rage". Why would you be mad? Because you committed extra actions to ensure that you would get these things. Same with us paying for them. We've done something that you all haven't: we've paid for the nice things that we have. So for you guys to sit here and say "Oh well I'm F2P but I can't get extra slots like this guy that paid real world money even though you guys gave me 50 platinum to start and therefore the game is P2W" is pretty much the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. It's nonsensical to think that you should be handed something that the rest of us had to go the extra mile for.

Should DE decide that "Hey, every 3 levels you're given the option of: 1) A Warframe slot, 2) 2 Weapon Slots, or 3) An Orokin Reactor and Catalyst" then I'd have no issue with it. But to sit there and say that you deserve everything that those that bought it do just because? No bueno

[Akrilor]

Pay 4 Respawns.

With 4 respawns per warframe rather than altogether it's pretty good, it's quite hard to actually run out of them for 1 warframe when doing coop, if you run out of them all the time you're doing something wrong.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Akrilor

[SoulEchelon]

That's not how F2P games work,

Not every F2P game needs to work exactly the same.

you don't keep someone from being able to play without having to use real currency. They market themselves to casual gamers, so they need a way for people to easily continue to play through deaths.

They do. It's called 4 revives per frame per day. I believe I'm pretty good at games like this, but I know I'm not the best. I also know I can't be the only one who barely even touches a revive. But if someone does go over that 4 revive limit per frame, they can get to buy more for LESS THAN A DOLLAR. I mean, seriously. You're trying to argue here that about 3 quarters worth of money is too much.

They are making the player buy revives should they lose all four, because chances are their fourth death will not be their last. This mainly affects new players who arguably need incentive to stick around and a proper low difficulty to start with. Making them use real currency for that is silly.

Frankly i'm sick and tired of every game coming out holding our hands. Besides, this is a team game is it not? There's a reason why Soloing isn't always the best idea, and new players to this game should have the common sense. But fine, I'll agree with doing at least this: Give new players free revives during the first mission in Mercury. Gives them a place to go to learn how to play fully without having to worry about dying while trying out the game. That, I can agree with. Everything else you're trying to say? No. Definitely not.

I say do away with the revives entirely and implement progressive credit/exp punishments for deaths. I am a bit too fond of Fable I think.

That can be another idea.