IPS procs idea

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Impact: when proc happens - penetrates any shields (instead of toxin damage now)

let shields ignore critical damage - this will make it a thing to care about when you go against corpus/corrupted

Puncture: proc penetrates any armour (instead of slash procs)

Armour is the only thing we care now and forever so just let it be as is

Slash: bleed proc damage is a percent of current HP (let's say 5%) and it is reduced by armour and has no effect on shields

And to make it matter - multiply all of the infested health x10 or something. They are meatballs after all, they don't have any extra protection (mostly) so let them be our bullet sponges and be able to soak up millions of damage from our power fantasy gear.

 

P.S:"I know it won't happen any time soon because DE just made those 2 new slash mods, but at least they admit that other 2 physical damage types mean nothing but the less chance of the only good Slash. All I want here is discussion, just to keep it in the air, so that something has to be done in here, not exactly as I want but if there is a better way, share your thoughts".

 

[Scar.brother.help.me]

i'll bump it once (probably everyone is playing rj, bad timing for this kind of thread)

[Teridax68]

I can actually get behind a lot of this: IPS is fundamentally flawed at the moment because Slash is better anti-armor damage than Puncture when it matters, despite Slash damage itself supposed to suffer against armor. Making Impact procs ignore shields and Puncture procs ignore armor would solve the problem pretty simply, though for caution's sake I would probably make only the Impact or Puncture component ignore the related stat, otherwise any high-status weapon with mixed IPS could essentially just ignore every faction's armor and shields. I would also avoid giving Slash procs percent health damage, because that would just risk keeping us in a meta where we peel off enemy armor and then attack their health as directly as possible.

With this, though, there are also some other loose ends: Impact damage with a chance to ignore shields is still going to be second-rate to Toxin, which bypasses shields by default. Slash's bleed damage uses a special damage type (True damage) that has become very inconsistent since Damage 3.0, bypassing shields on some sources but not on others. I would thus probably make Slash procs deal Slash damage, just like how Gas procs now deal Gas damage, and make True damage from other sources always ignore shields (if we even still need the damage type at all). Something would likely need to be done with Toxin so that Impact and Magnetic would still have some sort of chance as good damage types against shielded enemies.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I can actually get behind a lot of this: IPS is fundamentally flawed at the moment because Slash is better anti-armor damage than Puncture when it matters, despite Slash damage itself supposed to suffer against armor. Making Impact procs ignore shields and Puncture procs ignore armor would solve the problem pretty simply, though for caution's sake I would probably make only the Impact or Puncture component ignore the related stat, otherwise any high-status weapon with mixed IPS could essentially just ignore every faction's armor and shields. I would also avoid giving Slash procs percent health damage, because that would just risk keeping us in a meta where we peel off enemy armor and then attack their health as directly as possible.

yeah, I think you are right on that one, in that case the IPS distribution on weapons might become more important, and IPS mods might have a chance to appear in our builds

 

 

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

With this, though, there are also some other loose ends: Impact damage with a chance to ignore shields is still going to be second-rate to Toxin, which bypasses shields by default.

Is it a bad thing? Impact is the worst proc of all at the moment, which gives disadvantage instead of benefits and it is "supposed" to be anti-shield.
Shields can be a real thing if they ignore crits and then Toxin (as it is now) becomes the meta against those, so why not make it Impact portion to ignore shields on procs instead of Toxin does it now on any hit.

 

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I would also avoid giving Slash procs percent health damage, because that would just risk keeping us in a meta where we peel off enemy armor and then attack their health as directly as possible.

Yeah I think you are right, in that case it turns into the "scaling" damage type and will benefit the most from fast fire rate/many pellets weapons with high slash status.. But may be this is a good thing? It doesn't have to be 5 percent (of current HP, not Max) if it is too much but make it so the overal damage is more than this % on a non-infested enemies and matter only on pure health monsters if Infested get x10 or x20 health?

P.S:"imo all Dots should ignore armor and shields to even matter and even then most people will ignore it because we usually need to kill fast and go next"

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Is it a bad thing? Impact is the worst proc of all at the moment, which gives disadvantage instead of benefits and it is "supposed" to be anti-shield.
Shields can be a real thing if they ignore crits and then Toxin (as it is now) becomes the meta against those, so why not make it Impact portion to ignore shields on procs instead of Toxin does it now on any hit.

Making shields worth building against could be something to try, but the point here is more that if one damage type is designed to be anti-shield, yet only bypasses shields sometimes, whereas another damage type doesn't need status chance to bypass shields completely, the first damage type is always going to be worse than the second. If you want both options to be viable against shields, there needs to be a rebalance somewhere along the line so that both offer something about equally valuable.

3 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

Yeah I think you are right, in that case it turns into the "scaling" damage type and will benefit the most from fast fire rate/many pellets weapons with high slash status.. But may be this is a good thing? It doesn't have to be 5 percent (of current HP, not Max) if it is too much but make it so the overal damage is more than this % on a non-infested enemies and matter only on pure health monsters if Infested get x10 or x20 health?

The main reason why I'm pushing for flat damage here is because "more than this % on non-infested enemies" depends entirely on their level: a level 100 enemy is going to have a lot more health than a level 1 enemy, but a lot less than a level 9999 enemy, but with percent health damage, current or maximum, that level doesn't matter as much because the bleed would take the same relative chunk off their health. This invalidates enemy scaling and basically means that unless that percent health bleed is made very weak against levels 1 to about 100, it's going to remain one of the no-brainer damage types to equip on status weapons.

3 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

P.S:"imo all Dots should ignore armor and shields to even matter and even then most people will ignore it because we usually need to kill fast and go next"

That... is a fair point, actually. Combat in Warframe is generally way too fast for most DoTs to matter, which is why the only time their damage is strong is when they bypass armor against high-level enemies, during which combat slows down for most other weapons. However, this to me suggests more that we probably need fewer DoTs in Warframe's status system, and that we probably oughtn't make every DoT bypass armor, shields, or both.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

8 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The main reason why I'm pushing for flat damage here is because "more than this % on non-infested enemies" depends entirely on their level: a level 100 enemy is going to have a lot more health than a level 1 enemy, but a lot less than a level 9999 enemy, but with percent health damage, current or maximum, that level doesn't matter as much because the bleed would take the same relative chunk off their health. This invalidates enemy scaling and basically means that unless that percent health bleed is made very weak against levels 1 to about 100, it's going to remain one of the no-brainer damage types to equip on status weapons.

fair

may be then make it a much more fast and powerful Dot but no more bypassing so that is becomes a truly anti-infested proc. I mean when we strip the armor/break shields - we don't really need a slash proc, we are good with direct "fast" damage, but if infested become beefy - heavy bleed damage procs will feel very satisfying with big numbers that we all love (mould be nice to have more blood and gore with it) and make it uneffected by massively spawning Ancient Healer's aura.
 

 

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Oh, and I forgot to mension that if Infested get x10-x20 HP and Corpus/Corrupted shields get crit resistance - they should reward equal Affinity to Grineer

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

fair

may be then make it a much more fast and powerful Dot but no more bypassing so that is becomes a truly anti-infested proc. I mean when we strip the armor/break shields - we don't really need a slash proc, we are good with direct "fast" damage, but if infested become beefy - heavy bleed damage procs will feel very satisfying with big numbers that we all love (mould be nice to have more blood and gore with it) and make it uneffected by massively spawning Ancient Healer's aura.
 

 

This is fair enough. Whether or not the Infested are beefy, simply making Slash good against health, and making Slash procs deal Slash damage, would work well against a purely health-based enemy. An alternative, if you want more blood and gore, could be to have Slash status be a mark that causes the enemy to explode for radial Slash damage on death, perhaps exploding in a shower of body parts on death at max stacks: it'd work against Infested, who tend to group together, while also giving Slash a functionality other than a DoT.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This is fair enough. Whether or not the Infested are beefy, simply making Slash good against health, and making Slash procs deal Slash damage, would work well against a purely health-based enemy. An alternative, if you want more blood and gore, could be to have Slash status be a mark that causes the enemy to explode for radial Slash damage on death, perhaps exploding in a shower of body parts on death at max stacks: it'd work against Infested, who tend to group together, while also giving Slash a functionality other than a DoT.

better if it makes it 100% dismember, good for Nekros too