Grakata: Crit Weapon Or Not?

[DAttila]

[DISCLAIMER]:

• I operate under the assumption that everyone that posts in this thread has knowledge of the most up to date stats of the Grakata and the Soma's wiki pages.

   

• The original post in this thread represents my opinion. I endeavour to provide the clearest deconstruction of the issues I see and propose a solution for the review of DE, the developers of Warframe. I concede the decision of the resolution of this matter entirely to them, treating it as a suggestion, not as demand.

   

   

• By posting in this thread, you agree that you have read and understood the points of this disclaimer.

 

 

 

 

Time to decide.

 

If it's a crit-based weapon, its base crit chance needs an increase.

 

If it is not a crit-based weapon, its base damage needs an increase.

 

We can't have this gun be somewhere in between and sucky at both.

Currently, its base crit chance is 15%, 37.5% with the +150% of Point Strike.

The Soma's base crit chance is 35%, 87.5% with the +150% of Point Strike.

 

I propose an increase of at least 10% on the base crit chance of the Grakata, bringing it up to 25%, 62.5% with the +150% of Point Strike.

Ideally, the base crit could go higher, but if we account for the addition of the new Critical Delay corrupted mod, which adds an additional +48% crit chance at max rank (that Grakata users opt to slot anyway), the combined crit after both Point Strike and Critical Delay would be 74.5, quite close to the Soma.

 

However, I think the ceiling in increase should be drawn at 15%, setting the base crit at 30%, 75% after Point Strike, 89.4% with the addition of Critical Delay on top. Any further and the weapon becomes nigh-identical to the Soma.

 

Please help make a fun, but statistically outdated weapon viable by upvoting this post if you agree, adding comments below and sharing it with people so the devs see.

Thanks for your consideration and have a nice day. :)

Edited November 1, 2013 by DAttila

[Zachles]

I've heard it's a crap weapon.

[-RG-Jezus]

Yes, lets make the grakata a faster firing Soma, whilst everywhere people are complaining the soma is too op.

 

Well done your idiocy astounds me

[DAttila]

But the Grakata is not nearly as accurate, has a powerful upward pull on its recoil, and comes without polarities.

 

It needs to be used at a closer range than a Soma, higher risk for a potentially higher reward.

Edited October 30, 2013 by DAttila

[TheAscendedOne]

Yes, lets make the grakata a faster firing Soma, whilst everywhere people are complaining the soma is too op.

 

Well done your idiocy astounds me

 

Oh sure... with the change the OP proposed, it would be a faster-firing Soma, just with a lower base damage, lower crit damage, (still) lower crit chance, high recoil, and no polarities. Oh, but it would have a somewhat faster reload, as if that would make up for everything.

 

 

Well done. Your idiocy astounds me.

[-RG-Jezus]

But the Grakata is not nearly as accurate, has a powerful upward pull on its recoil, and comes without polarities.

 

It needs to be used at a closer range than a Soma, higher risk for a potentially higher reward.

If by upward pull you mean firing in a lovely circle on the screen, then yes, have you pointed a Grakata at a doorway with added recoil? you hit EVERYTHING coming through.

 

 

Oh sure... with the change the OP proposed, it would be a faster-firing Soma, just with a lower base damage, lower crit damage, (still) lower crit chance, high recoil, and no polarities. Oh, but it would have a somewhat faster reload, as if that would make up for everything.

 

 

Well done. Your idiocy astounds me.

He does say ideally it would be higher crit chance, and even then does math to show the crit chance as equal to the Somas. The recoil, if used correctly, can actually be a huge advantage. And then you have to remember that the Grakata is available from what, mastery 2?

 

Ohh, and 1 less damage per bullet is easily outweighed by the 5 extra shots fired per second. If your talking dps potential, then the OPs suggested changes will give the grakata a massive dps that could easily overpower that of the Soma

 

So were looking at a huge crit king spray and pay build from mastery 2, i basically ignore polarities on most weapons since the majority (in my opinion) need a forma or two anyway.

 

Think of it as a whole, not just hurr duh more dmg and crit.

 

 

Ohh, and i forgot, that added 10% crit chance (which would ideally be higher) would then allow for me to break the 100% crit barrier. Therefore perma crits, therefore on par in crit chance with the soma. 

Edited October 30, 2013 by supersaupe

[Egg_Chen]

+1, 10% increase in Crit chance would make this viable, and still nowhere near Soma levels.

Plus, you get my vote cause you describe it as fun, and it sure is, I still use it even though it is weak.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Egg_Chen

[nintega]

I'm pretty sure the Grakata used to have about 25% Crit Chance, then they nerfed it. Then they released the Soma, which has an extremely similar concept, fast-firing, low damage per shot, but with extreme criticals. The Grakata used to be a really good weapon, the stats extremely similar to the Soma as it is now.

So this is what DE did, in sequence:

Release Grakata, originally low stats -> Buff Grakata, give it monster crits, one of the best weapons in the game -> Nerf Grakata back to original stats, it's not so good again -> Release Soma, with stats similar to the buffed Grakata, but better.

So, they nerfed the Grakata from it's point of being a really good weapon, and then released a new weapon to just take it's place. It confounds and angers me to think about, personally. It's all pretty stupid.

[Neo3602]

If by upward pull you mean firing in a lovely circle on the screen, then yes, have you pointed a Grakata at a doorway with added recoil? you hit EVERYTHING coming through.

 

 

He does say ideally it would be higher crit chance, and even then does math to show the crit chance as equal to the Somas. The recoil, if used correctly, can actually be a huge advantage. And then you have to remember that the Grakata is available from what, mastery 2?

 

Ohh, and 1 less damage per bullet is easily outweighed by the 5 extra shots fired per second. If your talking dps potential, then the OPs suggested changes will give the grakata a massive dps that could easily overpower that of the Soma

 

So were looking at a huge crit king spray and pay build from mastery 2, i basically ignore polarities on most weapons since the majority (in my opinion) need a forma or two anyway.

 

Think of it as a whole, not just hurr duh more dmg and crit.

 

 

Ohh, and i forgot, that added 10% crit chance (which would ideally be higher) would then allow for me to break the 100% crit barrier. Therefore perma crits, therefore on par in crit chance with the soma. 

You are aware that the Grakata has a much lower crit multiplier than  the soma right?

Even if the Grakata had the same crit chance as the soma it still would not be doing as much damage as the soma because of its lower crit multiplier

 

Grakata Crit multiplier:2x

 

Soma Crit multiplier: 3x

 

Difference:1x

 

and the difference only gets bigger with mods

(assuming Vital Sense and Hammer shot)

 

Grakata crit multiplier with mods: 3.6x

 

Soma crit multiplier with mods: 5.4x

 

Difference: 1.8x

 

Again unless the Crit multiplier for the Grakata is changed it will be still not be on the level of the soma so I don't see the harm in a crit chance increase

Edited October 30, 2013 by Neo3602

[-RG-Jezus]

You are aware that the Grakata has a much lower crit multiplier than  the soma right?

Even if the Grakata had the same crit chance as the soma it still would not be doing as much damage as the soma because of its lower crit mutiplier

 

OK, im gonna work off base stats here

 

(10*15)*3 = 450

(9*20)*2 = 360

 

 

Now remember that soma has just been increased to mastery rank 6.

Grakata has no mastery required.

 

So what we are actually talking about here is giving mastery 0 players a weapon that is on par with a mastery 6 weapon once they realise how to use it (stand infront of a door/pipe and hold left click.

 

Do i need to carry on, seriously?

 

btw, there accuracy is technically equal, its just the recoil and clip size that would be different. But the recoil (in my opinion) make the grakata awesome when used correctly.

Edited October 30, 2013 by supersaupe

[Egg_Chen]

OK, im gonna work off base stats here

 

(10*15)*3 = 450

(9*25)*2 = 450

 

-snip-

 

Do i need to carry on, seriously?

 

Only to explain your math please...

Cause if that is Grakata vs Soma, wouldn't it be :

 

(9x15)*2 = 270 (Grakata)

(10x35)*3 = 1050 (Soma)

Edited October 30, 2013 by Egg_Chen

[-RG-Jezus]

Only to explain your math please...

Cause if that is Grakata vs Soma, wouldn't it be :

 

(9x15)*2 = 270

(10x35)*3 = 1050

Did you honestly just multiply crit CHANCE by damage?

 

And i didnt really think it necessary, but here a breakdown

 

Grakata 9 dmg a shot, 20 shots a second, 200% crit dmg 

 

Soma, 10 dmg a shot, 15 shots a second, 300% crit dmg

 

So the grakata does 360 dps if every shot crits

and the soma does 450 dps if every shot crits

Edited October 30, 2013 by supersaupe

[Neo3602]

OK, im gonna work off base stats here

 

(10*15)*3 = 450

(9*25)*2 = 450

 

Could you explain your math, where did you get the 15 and 25 from?

[-RG-Jezus]

Could you explain your math, where did you get the 15 and 25 from?

read the post ABOVE yours.

 

People are getting obsessed with single bullet damage and forget that not one player has ever managed to get 1 shot off from the Grakata, I personally have managed 3 from the Soma, but i don't know about anyone else.

 

So i calculated basic DPS.

 

This is before reload speeds, mag cap etc. though. Although they would work out pretty much even anyway, mabie 2 seconds difference over a full weapon in favor of the soma, but that is with 600 odd shots.

Edited October 30, 2013 by supersaupe

[Neo3602]

Did you honestly just multiply crit CHANCE by damage?

 

And i didnt really think it necessary, but here a breakdown

 

Grakata 9 dmg a shot, 25 shots a second, 200% crit dmg 

 

Soma, 10 dmg a shot, 15 shots a second, 300% crit dmg

 

So the grakata does 450 dps if every shot crits

and the soma does 450 dps if every shot crits

 

Fair enough, though to get the Grakata to the same level as a new soma  requires 2 forma because of the 2 V polarities that the soma has and thus requires much more work, where the soma doesn't

[Grandarex]

I think it's designed to be the bottom-of-the-barrel-tier weapon. I recommend just getting this thing to 30 for mastery points and moving on...

[-RG-Jezus]

Fair enough, though to get the Grakata to the same level as a new soma  requires 2 forma because of the 2 V polarities that the soma has and thus requires much more work, where the soma doesn't

Yay, a valid point :)

 

I'm pretty sure that in 6 mastery ranks i would have time to forma twice though. Although if they did increase its Crit chance by 10% or more i would totally forma that bad boy just for sh*ts and giggles.

Edited October 30, 2013 by supersaupe

[TheAscendedOne]

Grakata is 20 shots/second, not 25.

[-RG-Jezus]

Grakata is 20 shots/second, not 25.

+1 for picking up on my mistake,

 

And thanks, i stand corrected, sorry i must have misread something. Time to edit

 

 

Ahhh, i have increased fire-rate on my Grakata which didn't decrease when i removed mods.

Edited October 30, 2013 by supersaupe

[-RG-Jezus]

You are aware that the Grakata has a much lower crit multiplier than  the soma right?

Even if the Grakata had the same crit chance as the soma it still would not be doing as much damage as the soma because of its lower crit multiplier

 

Grakata Crit multiplier:2x

 

Soma Crit multiplier: 3x

 

Difference:1x

 

and the difference only gets bigger with mods

(assuming Vital Sense and Hammer shot)

 

Grakata crit multiplier with mods: 3.6x

 

Soma crit multiplier with mods: 5.4x

 

Difference: 1.8x

 

Again unless the Crit multiplier for the Grakata is changed it will be still not be on the level of the soma so I don't see the harm in a crit chance increase

This can easily be balanced by increasing fire rate.

 

And the Crit chance increase will make it the best starting primary in game.

Edited October 30, 2013 by supersaupe

[Egg_Chen]

Did you honestly just multiply crit CHANCE by damage?

 

And i didnt really think it necessary, but here a breakdown

 

Grakata 9 dmg a shot, 25 shots a second, 200% crit dmg 

 

Soma, 10 dmg a shot, 15 shots a second, 300% crit dmg

 

So the grakata does 450 dps if every shot crits

and the soma does 450 dps if every shot cri

 

Only cause I thought that's what you had done :)

15 shots a second, I read as 15%, cause there was no key, just numbers, and by coincidence that is the Grakata's crit chance!

 

I'd hoped that was not what you meant but honestly could not tell.

 

Thanks.

 

Anyway, so if they had the same crit rate, you are showing that their DPS would be the same.

... but they don't have the same crit rate, and that is not what the OP suggested (he suggested upping by 10-15%).

 

Suppose it does not matter, you are clearly against a small buff, and it's never gonna happen anyway.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Egg_Chen

[Vector88]

Is there any way to buff the Grakata without making it "overpowered?"

 

Because the Grakata is undeniably underpowered

[-RG-Jezus]

Only cause I thought that's what you had done :)

15 shots a second, I read as 15%, cause there was no key, just numbers, and by coincidence that is the Grakata's crit chance!

 

I'd hoped that was not what you meant but honestly could not tell.

 

Thanks.

 

Anyway, so if they had the same crit rate, you are showing that their DPS would be the same.

... but they don't have the same crit rate, and that is not what the OP suggested (he suggested upping by 10-15%).

 

Suppose it does not matter, you are clearly against a small buff, and it's never gonna happen anyway.

If the crit rate was increased by 10% i could get it to over 90% and still add my usual mods, i would basically run with the same build as my Soma but with possibly one change (increase in spread and dmg) that might actually make it better than the Soma, But I cant be bothered with more maths tonight. I'm gonna go watch something.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I think it's designed to be the bottom-of-the-barrel-tier weapon. I recommend just getting this thing to 30 for mastery points and moving on...

no. Frankly, F*** that. We already have enough guns and weapons in this category. We need to make other weapons usuable instead of adding more ridiculously powerful guns, then making a half-hearted attempt to balance them a month afterwards.

[Grandarex]

no. Frankly, F*** that. We already have enough guns and weapons in this category. We need to make other weapons usuable instead of adding more ridiculously powerful guns, then making a half-hearted attempt to balance them a month afterwards.

 

That would be ideal, yes. 

But DE wants "Tiered" weapons (for some reason) and that means some weapons are gonna be at the last place.

 

I'm not saying I agree with this idea.

I'm saying this is how our developer wants it to be. 

Edited October 30, 2013 by Grandarex