Nova Getting Nerfed!?

[Cwierz]

isn't that is frost's unique abilities? Sure his ability does not gear toward dps, but it gear toward other aspect. It's def. 

What do you ask for in frost? So if frost dps equal that of Nova, which mean frost will be a top notch in both def and dps, isn't that what opness is.

I told you your posts were bad. This is no exception.

I did not imply anything you said in that post so why don't you cut your S#&$.

 

 

And I'd wager that Nova helped your group tremendously in that mission without trivializing the content...

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not a personal fan of the Nova. I think it trivializes content in low/mid lvl missions and bad players exploit this.

Funny Story:

I literally just completed an invasion mission where a Nova joined and started Priming Rooms on entry. I asked the Nova to hold off on the Priming as I was leveling my melee weapon and the bonus for the mission was for melee kills.

 

Did the Nova stop? Nope... Instead, the Nova commented that I shouldn't have brought a weapon that needed to be leveled and continued to Prime every room.

 

Was the content trivialized? Yes.  Does that mean Nova's #4 needs to be nerfed? No.

 

That's the fault of the player, not the skill.

 

M. Prime is balanced for high level content not low/mid.

I don't argue that it's powerful, I argue that it isn't overpowered for it's intended use.

 

It's the players that need the nerf... The best nerf M. Prime could ever get is a player kick button.

 

While I get what you are saying about nukes not being effective after level 30...

If we really looked at which ones specifically and compared them to a list of the frames presently viewed as underwhelming or in need of love, the list would match up pretty close.

 

Ash

Banshee

Frost

Excalibur

Nekros

Ember

 

Would be my list (top of my head). Of those, I'd say Ash, Banshee, Excalibur, and Frost and Ember would probably be on your own.

 

Everyone's nukes should be making it past level 30ish. Merely due to the fact that content exists prevalently for that level range.

With respect, using that basis as an argument is fallacious. As it insists that there is absolutely nothing wrong with those 'frames #4 abilities.

We all know that isn't the case.

Keep in mind I was responding to something you had said earlier, and you shifted the topic. It is making my argument look bad when its not about the same thing.

 

Now let me attack this post real quick.

 

Most content in this game lacks depth, so to be quite honest even though it did trivialize the content it was hardly noticeable. However, I bring up trivialization quite a bit because it doesn't matter how much depth is added to the game if M Prime remains in its current state, much less other abilities get the same power level.

 

Next on the list, the concerning factors to me about M Prime is the fact that she steps all over other frames roles, while being the best in one. If she was the best in one, but didn't step on others I would be fine or vice versa, but as it stands it isn't the case.

 

No content should be balanced for endgame. We have no endgame, and until there is one trying to use that as an argument is bad.

 

Next on your argument list

"The player needs a nerf... not the frame"

 

Nope, nope, nope nope. The only way that things are ever allowed to be OP is if there is a signifigant amount of skill required for it, and/or there is a huge glaring weakness that is so prevalent even the best players can't do S#&$ about it. For this I point to the Sniper in TF2. In an objective sense he is overpowered to the extreme, because no other class in that game has long range fighting capabilities, he is hitscan, and he insta-kills. But this is balanced out by the insane amount of skill required to do the kind of things that make him OP (IE: watch NILST's  pub hero, JBird) and the glaring weakness that he has in the form of weakness to close range classes.

 

Currently nova and every other frame lack that, so we either have to start adding weaknesses to certain abilities, or make them in line with what we have. Either one works for me.

 

Next, Actually my list is Excal, Ash, Frost, Valkyr, Volt, Mag, and Oberon. They are all pretty bad past 30 without a damage amp of some sort. Meanwhile... M Prime is a damage amp AND a better nuke then them... hmmmmmmm.

 

It is relevant to what the original topic was, you said that all nukes could wreck all low level content, when a good majority loose ability at 20, and can't even hope for 30. However buffing the other skills will just make every skill just as bad of an offender as M Prime. I thought tenno were masters of gun and blade, not masters of spam and pretty explosions.

 

Overall-

M Prime has the best non-hard cc in the game (I personally consider chaos to be hard CC, because the chances of you getting targeted while enemies are affected is infinitesimal.)

 

M Prime has the best damage in the game.

 

M Prime is the cheapest ultimate

 

M Prime scales the best of nuke abilities

 

M Prime has the shortest Time to kill for groups in warframe.

 

M Prime has the longest range

 

M Prime has a S#&$ty name and should be renamed to supernova or molecular break.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Cwierz

[-CM-Syein]

I told you your posts were bad. This is no exception.

I did not imply anything you said in that post so why don't you cut your S#&$.

 

 

 

your argument is no longer an argument anymore, you started to toss bad words in my face, keep it nice. There's clearly something wrong with the way you suggest for your frost example, when you wanted frost to be op in both dps and def, so your post is no better than anyone here. 

[-CM-Syein]

 

Keep in mind I was responding to something you had said earlier, and you shifted the topic. It is making my argument look bad when its not about the same thing.

 

Now let me attack this post real quick.

 

Most content in this game lacks depth, so to be quite honest even though it did trivialize the content it was hardly noticeable. However, I bring up trivialization quite a bit because it doesn't matter how much depth is added to the game if M Prime remains in its current state, much less other abilities get the same power level.

 

Next on the list, the concerning factors to me about M Prime is the fact that she steps all over other frames roles, while being the best in one. If she was the best in one, but didn't step on others I would be fine or vice versa, but as it stands it isn't the case.

 

No content should be balanced for endgame. We have no endgame, and until there is one trying to use that as an argument is bad.

 

Next on your argument list

"The player needs a nerf... not the frame"

 

Nope, nope, nope nope. The only way that things are ever allowed to be OP is if there is a signifigant amount of skill required for it, and/or there is a huge glaring weakness that is so prevalent even the best players can't do S#&$ about it. For this I point to the Sniper in TF2. In an objective sense he is overpowered to the extreme, because no other class in that game has long range fighting capabilities, he is hitscan, and he insta-kills. But this is balanced out by the insane amount of skill required to do the kind of things that make him OP (IE: watch NILST's  pub hero, JBird) and the glaring weakness that he has in the form of weakness to close range classes.

 

Currently nova and every other frame lack that, so we either have to start adding weaknesses to certain abilities, or make them in line with what we have. Either one works for me.

 

Next, Actually my list is Excal, Ash, Frost, Valkyr, Volt, Mag, and Oberon. They are all pretty bad past 30 without a damage amp of some sort. Meanwhile... M Prime is a damage amp AND a better nuke then them... hmmmmmmm.

 

It is relevant to what the original topic was, you said that all nukes could wreck all low level content, when a good majority loose ability at 20, and can't even hope for 30. However buffing the other skills will just make every skill just as bad of an offender as M Prime. I thought tenno were masters of gun and blade, not masters of spam and pretty explosions.

 

Overall-

M Prime has the best non-hard cc in the game (I personally consider chaos to be hard CC, because the chances of you getting targeted while enemies are affected is infinitesimal.)

 

M Prime has the best damage in the game.

 

M Prime is the cheapest ultimate

 

M Prime scales the best of nuke abilities

 

M Prime has the shortest Time to kill for groups in warframe.

 

M Prime has the longest range

 

M Prime has a S#&$ty name and should be renamed to supernova or molecular break.

and how many times did you get it that damage, survival, defense, tank are not the same things, each frames had it's own area where it good at. It's obvious to everyone that Nova had the best offense. 

You only allow op if it required skill? Nova died too, she suck at survival, and you said there's no skill to it? Sry to broke it to you but, compared to tank, being a glass canon is harder. 

And no, frost, rhino, trinity, loki, mag, nekros and other frames don't lose their abilities at lvl 30 +, Trinity can still make people close to immortal as long as she still spam her ability, Rhino still make enemies float even at lvl 50+, Frost snowglobe still able to def against all bullet no matter what lvl it is, Loki still able to make all mobs to lost their wep (lvl doesn't matter), and so on. And you saying they lost their abilities at lvl 30+? 

This is a game where all frames are needed in a mission, 4x Nova in a long survival run can not equal a trinity, vauban, nova, rhino etc in a long survival run. 

[ThePresident777]

1.) This isn't a sales pitch. This is a debate about changing M Prime where we support our sides, and you have refused to do that.

 

2.) Balance is not abstract, she is bad for the game, and there are a lot of people who suffer from it, and a lot of content that is rendered useless by it. The solution is not to band-aid it, nor is it to make everything similar in hopes of drowning out parts of the problem. I repeat once more, no content is exempt from balancing. M Prime can be balanced, and still retain its trademark characteristics while being balanced in a proper sense. You refuse to see past your blinders, refuse to see the problem, and if you do you damn well do not know how to fix it. 

 

You do not fix something that has an issue with it by not acknowledging it, making other things like it, or dismissing it because you happen to like it. I am going to apply this scenario to a similar problem (A car that has a recall, but you paid good money for and enjoy using), to hopefully get you to see some flaws with your logic. 

 

A car with a recall on it:

You do not ignore it, because that faulty accelerator could cause you to hit another person. You do not make other cars have the same problem. You do not decide to dismiss the problem just because you like the car a lot.

 

 

3.) I actually semi-retract this point because it is true a portion of the time. If a game is unbalanced the chances of it being fun are low, likewise if a game is balanced and entertains all strategies then it is more likely to be fun.

 

4.) I guess I was using the improper wording here. Math (our word for an objective system) is something we use to describe relations between values. However, I ask for you to not be a nitpick and realize that they might as well be the same thing. Our music, is heavily influenced by mathematical principles. The musical keys is probably the best example of this, and at the time of their creation we didn't realize it. We chose to establish those, because the mathematical relations between those frequencies was interpreted as "good" in our brains. It is the reason that unmathematical noise is also not considered music. 

 

Cryptography is another good example.

 

5.)And that entire spheal about reasoning. 

 

Ill let you in on reasons that is irrelevant.

 

a.) A problem has been recognized

b.) Instead of convincing me why it isn't a problem (I do not have a huge confirmation bias about this and I have changed opinions numerous times, so this should be easymode if it isn't) you have chosen to try to justify why it doesn't need attention. (I realize that these are similar, but this is the best way I could find to word it)

 

 

Here are some other things I feel is relevant from a nice little article myself that Ill attempt to shorten out.

Before reading the second part I want a fundemental thing drilled in-

Nova lacks any major weaknesses. (She can reduce enemy DPS, that is defensive... also in the way this game scales low level enemies will never scratch past the shields, and the high enemy levels will shred anything that isn't immune to CC and has blessing)

Know that imbalance is actually bad. The first thing that I think everyone has to do is to internalize the idea that balance is good, and imbalance is bad. I've actually heard people try to argue that a little bit of imbalance is necessary for a fun game. Someone who says this is failing to see one factor:

 

That a game can be "fun" whether or not it's balanced -- the word "fun" is a notoriously crappy metric. Anything "can be fun" with the right attitude -- flicking a dust-ball around on the floor, brushing your teeth, anything.

If a game is fun despite being imbalanced, that's great, but do not make the mistake of thinking that it's fun because it's imbalanced.

Cherish Weaknesses. Valve's Robin Walker, designer of Team Fortress 2, said that the most important aspect of the classes in the game was actually their weaknesses, not their strengths. It's somewhat counterintuitive to think this way, but making sure that all of your game elements have a distinct weakness can be a great way to help you avoid dominant strategies.

Sometimes these weaknesses manifest in really interesting ways, creating interesting situations. One of my favorites is the super-destructive Demoman class in Team Fortress 2. Loaded with two types of explosives, he can quickly turn masses of foes into small barbequed chunks of flesh, and he's great at taking out sentry guns.....

So how is the Demoman balanced? Because he has no bullet-type weapons whatsoever. This means that besides using melee, the only way for him to kill anyone is to predict where they'll be, whereas every other class can attack by shooting where you are...

 

1)  I admit, I have refused to support your side, the side that is attempting to destroy my fun becuase I trully find unnerfed Mprime to be fun.

 

2)  She can't be bad for the game as long as people enjoy playing her because that fulfills the purpose of a game, to experience enjoyment.  If there is anything that is bad for games, it's boredom, such as the kind experienced from repeating the same few missions ad infinitum.  Ask DE for a mission where the enemy has anti-matter defeat technology so you can have fun with a nerfed Nova and the rest of us can continue to enjoy her in other missions.

 

As far as balance is concerned, there is the issue of the balance point.  As I already stated, balance can be achieved at any point and each point is an arbitrary preference.

 

I reject the concept of balance altogether because preference is what dominates anyway.  Balance is just a sanitizing term.

 

4)  Nobody gets taken seriously when they talk about balance in music, except by those who share the same bias.

 

5)  Oh, I agree that there is a problem.  The problem is that other Warframes are not as fun as Nova.  I've suggested solutions.

 

Everything you quoted from that article is just opinion, unproven assertions, articles of faith.  Really, it's sounding more and more like a cult.

[ThePresident777]

How about the devs make it so there are drones and such which have anti ability fields which protect bots from damage AOE attacks in a certain radius until you kill them.

Have more of these in lower levels.

Have sensors which set off alarms when high powered abilities are used which summon the drones or set off static field generators.

 

Now you are starting to think, to CREATE.  This is getting interesting now, something that fights back!

[Cwierz]

when you wanted frost to be op in both dps and def, so your post is no better than anyone here. 

I never said that. Hello?! Learn to read, please.

 

and how many times did you get it that damage, survival, defense, tank are not the same things, each frames had it's own area where it good at. It's obvious to everyone that Nova had the best offense. 

You only allow op if it required skill? Nova died too, she suck at survival, and you said there's no skill to it? Sry to broke it to you but, compared to tank, being a glass canon is harder. 

And no, frost, rhino, trinity, loki, mag, nekros and other frames don't lose their abilities at lvl 30 +, Trinity can still make people close to immortal as long as she still spam her ability, Rhino still make enemies float even at lvl 50+, Frost snowglobe still able to def against all bullet no matter what lvl it is, Loki still able to make all mobs to lost their wep (lvl doesn't matter), and so on. And you saying they lost their abilities at lvl 30+? 

This is a game where all frames are needed in a mission, 4x Nova in a long survival run can not equal a trinity, vauban, nova, rhino etc in a long survival run. 

Hey, have you noticed I never said anything about that stuff. Good, because you should probably read next time. I am getting tired of you being a broken record with subpar grammar and communication skills. Saying your factually incorrect things over and over again does not make them true, and asserting that I said something I did not does not make a case for ignoring my past evidence.

 

I haven't said anything that is in this post, and just reading through it once I can see about a third of it is factually wrong and or ignoring my posts/not reading it and understanding it, and the rest is irrelevant, I consider a problem as well, or is uncomprehensible.

 

1)  I admit, I have refused to support your side, the side that is attempting to destroy my fun becuase I trully find unnerfed Mprime to be fun.

 

2)  She can't be bad for the game as long as people enjoy playing her because that fulfills the purpose of a game, to experience enjoyment.  If there is anything that is bad for games, it's boredom, such as the kind experienced from repeating the same few missions ad infinitum.  Ask DE for a mission where the enemy has anti-matter defeat technology so you can have fun with a nerfed Nova and the rest of us can continue to enjoy her in other missions.

 

As far as balance is concerned, there is the issue of the balance point.  As I already stated, balance can be achieved at any point and each point is an arbitrary preference.

 

I reject the concept of balance altogether because preference is what dominates anyway.  Balance is just a sanitizing term.

 

4)  Nobody gets taken seriously when they talk about balance in music, except by those who share the same bias.

 

5)  Oh, I agree that there is a problem.  The problem is that other Warframes are not as fun as Nova.  I've suggested solutions.

 

Everything you quoted from that article is just opinion, unproven assertions, articles of faith.  Really, it's sounding more and more like a cult.

Your entire post is bad. It is based off of the metric of fun and therfor subjective without logic or base. I don't find nova to be fun, so I guess my opinion is right now! Holy balls why didn't I think of that earlier!

 

Really man, anything is fun with the right attitude, and using it to justify yourself is dumb. You fail to think critically, or logically, and the few things you have said are illogical, or ignoring the problem. It is like you can't bring yourself to actually argue with the actual argument... instead you think saying "I find her fun and fun is good" is enough to justify yourself. That argument is bad, and there are so many things I would say but I am trying to be as uncritical as possible.

 

I am not out to get nova because of a grudge, I am wanting m prime changed, possibly even her entire kit to be tweaked. You do not know how I want it changed, so stop acting like I have said and argue whether it needs a nerf or not. 

 

Calling something a cult (this is stupid), or an opinion (so what? you are using them to argue.), or an assertion (nothing wrong with that), or an article of faith (definitely isn't, wasn't aware basic game design principles present in this game RIGHT NOW! are religious texts), or unproven (it is proven this is just dumb).

 

 

So far, both you and seize have failed to actually address points, use illogical strains of reasoning, and base your argument off of baseless things. All of your arguments thus far have been bad, and I am getting so tired of you guys thinking acting like a broken record validates your arguments.

 

 

 

How about I present you with the problems. If you try to address anything besides these your entire post is bad, not worth credit, and I will instantly consider you a person who has no idea what they are talking about. Same goes for you seize.

 

1.) Nova lacks any weakness, while having to many strengths

 

2.) M Prime is the best damage dealing skill in the entire game, and unless other abilities are completely revamped and changed from one pulse or multiple ticks of damage will continue to be.

 

3.) M Prime contains the most non-hard CC in any ability in the entire game

 

4.) M Prime has the longest range

 

5.) Because M Prime reduces fire rate and therfor DPS of an enemy then she is no longer a glass cannon. Any content that wouldn't be killing all frames in one AI burst fire would be having reduced dps and not killing her.

Ill outline this for you really quick so you can understand better (particurally for SEIZE, because he is so intent that nova is a glass cannon)

 

Low levels, nothing will ever get past the shields... ever

Medium levels, because of reduced enemy bulk, you are now about the same bulk as a regular frame, your decreased bulk is made up for in full or more

High levels, everything in the game will one shot you unless you have a blessing or snowglobe.

 

6.) M Prime is the cheapest ultimate with no drawbacks.

 

Now how about you try to explain why that doesn't need a nerf logically. 

 

 

EDIT: Btw, saying I can have a mission where nova is stupid because if you need something like that for ONE frame then you know something is messed up... it is like you can't get past having your pet ability.

 

 

Now you are starting to think, to CREATE.  This is getting interesting now, something that fights back!

That is a band aid fix, it doesn't do anything except show why we have a problem. If we need game elements like this it will just serve to balance one frame, and cast the others into complete and utter obscurity. If we buff everything else, we just end up with meaningless content, and we are back at square one with even more OP things.

 

This isn't saying I don't like the idea, I find it interesting... but you don't balance nova with just that.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Cwierz

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

Keep in mind I was responding to something you had said earlier, and you shifted the topic. It is making my argument look bad when its not about the same thing.

 

Anyone who reads this thread can decide that for themselves. I will contend that I remained on topic and expounded on an example you gave. You apparently feel it made you look bad.

 

Now let me attack this post real quick.

 

 

Most content in this game lacks depth, so to be quite honest even though it did trivialize the content it was hardly noticeable. However, I bring up trivialization quite a bit because it doesn't matter how much depth is added to the game if M Prime remains in its current state, much less other abilities get the same power level.

 

I think the better term here would be difficulty rather than depth, it's not an MMO.

Players have been complaining about M. Prime since Nova was introduced in game.

Nova's abilities are normalized by high end content now so this is a moot point.

 

Next on the list, the concerning factors to me about M Prime is the fact that she steps all over other frames roles, while being the best in one. If she was the best in one, but didn't step on others I would be fine or vice versa, but as it stands it isn't the case.

The only frames roles that don't overlap are Trinity, Vauban, and Nekros.

Almost every frame has abilities that offer some form of team Support or QoL except Ash, Ember, and Loki.

 

No content should be balanced for endgame. We have no endgame, and until there is one trying to use that as an argument is bad.

I didn't say end game. I said high level content. Please don't misquote me.

 

Next on your argument list

"The player needs a nerf... not the frame"

 

Nope, nope, nope nope. The only way that things are ever allowed to be OP is if there is a signifigant amount of skill required for it, and/or there is a huge glaring weakness that is so prevalent even the best players can't do S#&$ about it. For this I point to the Sniper in TF2. In an objective sense he is overpowered to the extreme, because no other class in that game has long range fighting capabilities, he is hitscan, and he insta-kills. But this is balanced out by the insane amount of skill required to do the kind of things that make him OP (IE: watch NILST's  pub hero, JBird) and the glaring weakness that he has in the form of weakness to close range classes.

This is reading like you think M. Prime would be fine if either a) There was a skillcap that needed to be met for its' use. b) There was a significant drawback to it's use (strong at range /weak at melee). Both are restrictions placed on the player not the skill which supports my statement. But you started this comment by saying you didn't support that statement.

My suggestions stress encouraging behavior modification and/or encouraging restraint. So does yours.

 

Currently nova and every other frame lack that, so we either have to start adding weaknesses to certain abilities, or make them in line with what we have. Either one works for me.

Adding meaningful threat would be an interesting alternative as well. But I doubt it would be feasible.

 

Next, Actually my list is Excal, Ash, Frost, Valkyr, Volt, Mag, and Oberon. They are all pretty bad past 30 without a damage amp of some sort. Meanwhile... M Prime is a damage amp AND a better nuke then them... hmmmmmmm.

 

The fact that you missed Banshee on your list says volumes here as Banshee is probably the closest to Nova's own glass cannon archetype.

Volt and Mag could use a bit of something since their dmg types have been adjusted by 2.0. They need less than Frost, Ash, or Excal though.

Valkyr and Oberon just need polish.

It's why Focus and Stretch exist. Do you think Nova is pulling these stunts without it? Molecular Prime is less of a pure damage Amp than Sonar in truth. It's just guaranteed, requires no skill, and has Range.

 

It is relevant to what the original topic was, you said that all nukes could wreck all low level content, when a good majority loose ability at 20, and can't even hope for 30. However buffing the other skills will just make every skill just as bad of an offender as M Prime. I thought tenno were masters of gun and blade, not masters of spam and pretty explosions.

 

Misquoting me again.. Go back and re-read what I said please.

To your point though, I do truly see a time in the forseeable future where a mission mode will be "no powers"

Even now, Most of the powers that get used outside of Defense and Survival missions are used in place of patience and ammunition.

 

Overall-

M Prime has the best non-hard cc in the game (I personally consider chaos to be hard CC, because the chances of you getting targeted while enemies are affected is infinitesimal.)

 

M Prime has the best damage in the game.

 

M Prime is the cheapest ultimate

 

M Prime scales the best of nuke abilities

 

M Prime has the shortest Time to kill for groups in warframe.

 

M Prime has the longest range

 

M Prime has a S#&$ty name and should be renamed to supernova or molecular break.

 

I'll take your word for all of these last points. I don't min/max. I tend to gravitate to what's fun for me to play... Nova isn't fun to me.

That said though... All of those points should be the case since Nova is a glass cannon frame. The travesty to this is that we can't say the same for Banshee's skills.

 

 

Replies are in the body.

[Cwierz]

Replies are in the body.

I can agree with some things that you said but I need to make this quick cause its pretty late at night.

 

I personally do not count banshee, because if the ability is still functioning the same as it was a while back, sound quake is basically a huge radial stun.  When I think of banshee I think sniper because all of her abilities serve a sniper esque role, or avoiding danger at close proximities. However I do agree, banshee while not weak at what she does needs a buff in some way.

 

People oftentimes do not know this but M Prime reduces enemy fire rate. While this may seem trivial, I believe that if the slowing part of M Prime is removed (which we should start with firstly), then we will be able to see how much it actually effects the ability. See, with less fire rate and the way this game scales. There is an abrupt upheaval around level 60-70 depending on enemy type where enemies start to be able to kill any warframe in a time span with meaningless differences between them. Everything else below that requires a substantial amount of time of straight down gunning to kill.

What ends up happening,

is that in low levels you have nuked everything before they have even fired a shot, her bulk doesn't matter.

and in medium range levels towards the end of the solar system and void towers you have reduced enemy fire rate effectively pseudo increasing your bulk. In low and medium level ranges, a nova will never die unless she has no energy, and is trapped in a group of enemies/extreme stun lock which every frame has to worry about except for rhino.

There will be a brief window closing in on level 60, in which enemies will be able to down a nova, but most likely none of her more bulky frames or ones that have survival oriented abilities.

However, past that the difference is negligible or non-existent and everything that is not under the effect of blessing will be killed off by AI.

 

Overall, nova isn't a glass cannon, she is just as much a glass cannon as rhino is supposed to be a slow warframe (you know, with that vanguard and all)

 

On paper it would like it, but if you look at another aspect it becomes clear why it isn't the case.

 

 

BTW, sorry about the misquoting. But your original post was something along the lines of 

"Every frame can do that at x level"

 

my reply was

 

"Actually, they can't. However they should"

 

Then followed up by you saying something like

 

"you are using x to justify y"

 

It was on topic, but it wasn't what I was saying. I was simply stating that contrary to popular belief, most frame nukes do not make it past the 30's, and a select few don't make it past the 20's.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, President thinks saying that because some people enjoy something it should be exempt from balance, or made the new standard. I think a better practice would be to not introduce such questionable content in the first place, I wonder if DE actually playtests the frames before release :/

 

And SEIZE, misinterprets/ignores the posts, and thinks saying something that has been addressed in full previously is still relevant.

 

Why can't more people be like you >.<

[-CM-Syein]

 

And SEIZE, misinterprets/ignores the posts, and thinks saying something that has been addressed in full previously is still relevant.

 

 

You stop respond to be in a logical manner, I wonder who's the ignorant here. This is what you wrote:

 

" I consider Bastille, Snowglobe, Blessing, M Prime, Rhino, the vanguard helmet, and soma to be pretty stupid at this point. The fact that survival needs desecrate for air is also dumb. There are so many problems with this game, and these represent some of the worst problems with the game. I feel that trying to tell people the actual problem in futile, and the better solution is to remove the mask over them and let people realize it themselves."

 

Isn't it obvious that Nova is not the only problem you have in this game. How are they even represent worst problem when the listing above pretty much make up for most of what the game need to be. Like I said: unique abilities.

If you say I'm ignorant of your post, aren't you doing the same thing an be all hypocrite about that? 

 

[-CM-Syein]

Nova is still a glass cannon, her health, def, survival ability, solo abilitty etc all addresses that. Which is the reason why She deserve her power. 

Number 1 problem people had with Nova is she stole their kills in low level mission (any frames with max abilities could) 

But at the point where m-prime could no longer chain, it's still effective against the enemies, but it only kill the enemies one by one. On the other hands, abilities such as blessing, radial disarm, frost snowglobe, Vauban's bastile etc still work on enemies like how it suppose to be, regardless of any level. 

[Cwierz]

You stop respond to be in a logical manner, I wonder who's the ignorant here. This is what you wrote:

 

" I consider Bastille, Snowglobe, Blessing, M Prime, Rhino, the vanguard helmet, and soma to be pretty stupid at this point. The fact that survival needs desecrate for air is also dumb. There are so many problems with this game, and these represent some of the worst problems with the game. I feel that trying to tell people the actual problem in futile, and the better solution is to remove the mask over them and let people realize it themselves."

 

Isn't it obvious that Nova is not the only problem you have in this game. How are they even represent worst problem when the listing above pretty much make up for most of what the game need to be. Like I said: unique abilities.

If you say I'm ignorant of your post, aren't you doing the same thing an be all hypocrite about that? 

Nova is still a glass cannon, her health, def, survival ability, solo abilitty etc all addresses that. Which is the reason why She deserve her power. 

Number 1 problem people had with Nova is she stole their kills in low level mission (any frames with max abilities could) 

But at the point where m-prime could no longer chain, it's still effective against the enemies, but it only kill the enemies one by one. On the other hands, abilities such as blessing, radial disarm, frost snowglobe, Vauban's bastile etc still work on enemies like how it suppose to be, regardless of any level. 

I actually had a response to these, but these posts were so bad I decided to withdraw them.

I am done trying to argue with you.

Why do you think restating things that have been disproven multiple times over validates yourself.

Why do you think that being a broken record makes you right?

Why do you respond to posts you don't understand. (I know you don't understand it because you took it out of context, and you missed the actual point of it to.)

 

If you are gonna post feedback in this section, it is fairly obvious that you need a better grasp of games in general.

[-CM-Syein]

I actually had a response to these, but these posts were so bad I decided to withdraw them.

I am done trying to argue with you.

Why do you think restating things that have been disproven multiple times over validates yourself.

Why do you think that being a broken record makes you right?

Why do you respond to posts you don't understand. (I know you don't understand it because you took it out of context, and you missed the actual point of it to.)

 

If you are gonna post feedback in this section, it is fairly obvious that you need a better grasp of games in general.

instead of complaining about my posts such as why and why, be like a logical person. I'm the type of person to say things over and over again in respond to arguments. Sure, you can done argue with me, I'm still continue, it is up to you to reply or not. I mean this is a forum posts, no one stop you to. 

I already got my grasp in games. and it is not something that you can judge. 

[ThePresident777]

Your entire post is bad. It is based off of the metric of fun and therfor subjective without logic or base. I don't find nova to be fun, so I guess my opinion is right now! Holy balls why didn't I think of that earlier!

 

 

 

Yes!  You're opinion is right!  For YOU!  Not for everybody else!  Logic is irrelevant here!  Logic is just another opinion.  People choose to behave logically, or not.  Logic is not a universal force.  That's why you need to learn to share.  It's not your game.  It's OUR game.  You get your corner.  I get mine.  Now, go make some more corners!

 

 

 

That is a band aid fix, it doesn't do anything except show why we have a problem. If we need game elements like this it will just serve to balance one frame, and cast the others into complete and utter obscurity. If we buff everything else, we just end up with meaningless content, and we are back at square one with even more OP things.

 

This isn't saying I don't like the idea, I find it interesting... but you don't balance nova with just that.

 

Don't under estimate these game elements.  We have precious few of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cwierz]

 

Logic is just another opinion.

 

All of your posts are now discredited.

If you think that logic is an opinion, rather than a tool your are doing something wrong.

[ThePresident777]

All of your posts are now discredited.

If you think that logic is an opinion, rather than a tool your are doing something wrong.

 

If you think Logic is a tool then clearly it is subservient to motive and goal.  If the product of logic does not satisfy the motive or the goal then you throw away the product.

[ThePresident777]

 

How about I present you with the problems. If you try to address anything besides these your entire post is bad, not worth credit, and I will instantly consider you a person who has no idea what they are talking about. Same goes for you seize.

 

1.) Nova lacks any weakness, while having to many strengths

 

2.) M Prime is the best damage dealing skill in the entire game, and unless other abilities are completely revamped and changed from one pulse or multiple ticks of damage will continue to be.

 

3.) M Prime contains the most non-hard CC in any ability in the entire game

 

4.) M Prime has the longest range

 

5.) Because M Prime reduces fire rate and therfor DPS of an enemy then she is no longer a glass cannon. Any content that wouldn't be killing all frames in one AI burst fire would be having reduced dps and not killing her.

Ill outline this for you really quick so you can understand better (particurally for SEIZE, because he is so intent that nova is a glass cannon)

 

Low levels, nothing will ever get past the shields... ever

Medium levels, because of reduced enemy bulk, you are now about the same bulk as a regular frame, your decreased bulk is made up for in full or more

High levels, everything in the game will one shot you unless you have a blessing or snowglobe.

 

6.) M Prime is the cheapest ultimate with no drawbacks.

 

Now how about you try to explain why that doesn't need a nerf logically. 

 

 

 

This is the problem as you see it.  The problem as I see it is that other Warframes are lacking in entertainment value.  For instance, I find that a 25 meter radius is fun.  I would give all the damage ults 25 meter radius.  I prefer FAST movement.  I would get rid of that archiac and boring slow tank nonsense and give all the warframes 1.25 sprint speed, even more, and infinite stamina, and instanteneous stamina regen.  I would make Stamina significant only in Nightmare Mode.  That's what I call fun.

 

Also, your problem does not exist because Mprime is a force multiplier, that DOES NOT STACK WITH ITSELF, as I stated many pages ago.  The effects that you ascribe to Mprime as being too much apply to other powers but not multiples of Mprime.  You are failing to compare multiple Mprimes at once versus Mprime stacked with other abilities.  The result is that Mprime + another ability is more powerful than any number of simultaneous Mprimes.  Considering that Warframe is a cooperative game, this is a good thing.  This means that a diverse party is better than a party with more than one Nova.  This means that other Warframes are not obsolete.

Edited January 1, 2014 by ThePresident777

[DaveC]

1.) Nova lacks any weakness, while having to many strengths

 

2.) M Prime is the best damage dealing skill in the entire game, and unless other abilities are completely revamped and changed from one pulse or multiple ticks of damage will continue to be.

 

3.) M Prime contains the most non-hard CC in any ability in the entire game

 

4.) M Prime has the longest range

 

5.) Because M Prime reduces fire rate and therfor DPS of an enemy then she is no longer a glass cannon. Any content that wouldn't be killing all frames in one AI burst fire would be having reduced dps and not killing her.

Ill outline this for you really quick so you can understand better (particularly for SEIZE, because he is so intent that nova is a glass cannon)

 

Low levels, nothing will ever get past the shields... ever

Medium levels, because of reduced enemy bulk, you are now about the same bulk as a regular frame, your decreased bulk is made up for in full or more

High levels, everything in the game will one shot you unless you have a blessing or snowglobe.

 

6.) M Prime is the cheapest ultimate with no drawbacks.

Totally agree with the above. Nova is too powerful and needs nerfing, to argue otherwise is to simply ignore all valid arguments. It's a frame that makes the game "unfun" for other people, this is for an entire normal mission or the first 25-30 waves of defense or the first 20-30m of survival. It leaves the rest of the team with nothing to do. As most games don't progress beyond these points...then the "need Nova at high level" argument is specious, plus most Novas want to go when they can't make everything blow up.

Another point was made in an earlier post (and one I made much earlier on). If you are leveling a specific weapon, it's going to level a lot slower with a Nova spamming MP. Shoot something yourself you get 50% XP on your weapon and 50% on your warframe. Watch them all go boom and you only get 25% on your weapon.

Now Nova players argue that this isn't the case, but the facts are, if you kill an enemy with the weapon the XP is split equally between your frame and your weapon. If other people kill it, no matter how, you only get 25% of the XP on that specific weapon your trying to level. Nova players say yeah but your getting 25% of everything that's killed by MP or anything else(assuming your in range). This is true, but what they neglect to mention is. Your one shot causing 20 enemies to go boom, nets you a less XP than when you kill more than 1 of them with your weapon.

e.g. You and Nova are playing, your leveling up your rifle (everything else you have is fully ranked). Its a defense so all enemies have to be killed anyway. The Nova spams prime, so all that's happening is each time you fire a shot, most of them blow up. Lets assume (just for the calculation) there is 50 enemies each wave and each enemy is worth 500XP.

Nova MP = 40 Kills

Nova weapon = 6 kills

You weapon = 4 Kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 45 kills to your rifle = 5750XP + 4 kills you did =1000XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 6750

===============================

If now we have a different frame

Excalibur (doesn't matter how it kills stuff) = 25kills

You = 25 kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 25 kills to your rifle = 3400XP + 25 kills you did = 6250XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 9650

===============================

Now this is going to happen wave after wave after wave...as you can see your weapon has the potential to level up much faster with No Nova on the team. it's not just a theory, out in the field it works the same way. You can see how much faster stuff levels once you have leveled enough stuff in both scenarios.

source of info for calculations http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_Mechanics

P.S. A Nova lover will come on and say, ah you don't get 500XP, or you might kill more than 5, or there's less/more than 50 enemies per wave. It's just a smokescreen. The numbers are just as an example to show the calculations of the mechanic. Whether you get 258xp or 620xp or there is 27 or 38 or 65 enemies per wave, it doesn't matter. it's the way XP is worked out which means: If you are trying to rank a specific weapon or frame (just 1 thing). Your are loosing out whenever you see them all go boom. They will also say, ah but other frames can use their ultis...sure they can, but you just look at the kills at the end of the mission. With a Nova, it's often a huge proportion of the kills to them, which is stuff you never got the chance to kill and thus lost out on specific weapon XP. With no Nova, the kills are usually more evenly distributed.

Edited January 2, 2014 by DaveC

[Inez]

Totally agree with the above. Nova is too powerful and needs nerfing, to argue otherwise is to simply ignore all valid arguments. It's a frame that makes the game "unfun" for other people, this is for an entire normal mission or the first 25-30 waves of defense or the first 20-30m of survival. It leaves the rest of the team with nothing to do. As most games don't progress beyond these points...then the "need Nova at high level" argument is specious, plus most Novas want to go when they can't make everything blow up.

Another point was made in an earlier post (and one I made much earlier on). If you are leveling a specific weapon, it's going to level a lot slower with a Nova spamming MP. Shoot something yourself you get 50% XP on your weapon and 50% on your warframe. Watch them all go boom and you only get 25% on your weapon.

Now Nova players argue that this isn't the case, but the facts are, if you kill an enemy with the weapon the XP is split equally between your frame and your weapon. If other people kill it, no matter how, you only get 25% of the XP on that specific weapon your trying to level. Nova players say yeah but your getting 25% of everything that's killed by MP or anything else(assuming your in range). This is true, but what they neglect to mention is. Your one shot causing 20 enemies to go boom, nets you a less XP than when you kill more than 1 of them with your weapon.

e.g. You and Nova are playing, your leveling up your rifle (everything else you have is fully ranked). Its a defense so all enemies have to be killed anyway. The Nova spams prime, so all that's happening is each time you fire a shot, most of them blow up. Lets assume (just for the calculation) there is 50 enemies each wave and each enemy is worth 500XP.

Nova MP = 40 Kills

Nova weapon = 6 kills

You weapon = 4 Kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 45 kills to your rifle = 5750XP + 4 kills you did =1000XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 6750

===============================

If now we have a different frame

Excalibur (doesn't matter how it kills stuff) = 25kills

You = 25 kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 25 kills to your rifle = 3400XP + 25 kills you did = 6250XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 9650

===============================

Now this is going to happen wave after wave after wave...as you can see your weapon has the potential to level up much faster with No Nova on the team. it's not just a theory, out in the field it works the same way. You can see how much faster stuff levels once you have leveled enough stuff in both scenarios.

source of info for calculations http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_Mechanics

P.S. A Nova lover will come on and say, ah you don't get 500XP, or you might kill more than 5, or there's less/more than 50 enemies per wave. It's just a smokescreen. The numbers are just as an example to show the calculations of the mechanic. Whether you get 258xp or 620xp or there is 27 or 38 or 65 enemies per wave, it doesn't matter. it's the way XP is worked out which means: If you are trying to rank a specific weapon or frame (just 1 thing). Your are loosing out whenever you see them all go boom. They will also say, ah but other frames can use their ultis...sure they can, but you just look at the kills at the end of the mission. With a Nova, it's often a huge proportion of the kills to them, which is stuff you never got the chance to kill and thus lost out on specific weapon XP. With no Nova, the kills are usually more evenly distributed.

Your math is pretty horrible.

First off you assume people only level one thing at a time. Which is ridiculous.

Secondly you don't account for the fact that each wave goes by quicker by having a Nova blow everything up. You earn far more xp per time spent with a Nova. In a survival, the difference is even more noticeable, assuming mobs are actually spawning.

Thirdly you don't account for the fact that you can catch up on funny cat videos why nova clears out the boring, easy low levels of defense missions. And everybody loves funny cat videos.

[LightstealKnight]

Nova is a classic example of a "First order optimal Strategy"

 

 

Time = 2 minutes for FOOS explanation

 

Direct link: http://youtu.be/6op8eV5OBwE?t=2m1s

Edited January 2, 2014 by Enemy1

[DaveC]

Your math is pretty horrible.

First off you assume people only level one thing at a time. Which is ridiculous.

Secondly you don't account for the fact that each wave goes by quicker by having a Nova blow everything up. You earn far more xp per time spent with a Nova. In a survival, the difference is even more noticeable, assuming mobs are actually spawning.

Thirdly you don't account for the fact that you can catch up on funny cat videos why nova clears out the boring, easy low levels of defense missions. And everybody loves funny cat videos.

Take each point in turn:

1. My math for the XP mechanics is completely correct, read the wiki page

2. I don't see why leveling 1 thing at a time is ridiculous, BUT if you are leveling a warframe and a weapon, the situation is even worse, as you loose XP on both counts. The only time it might be slightly better (only slightly) is if you are leveling a warframe and at least 2 weapons. Although any XP is usually a "rob peter to pay paul scenario" as everything levels up slower. Read the Wiki XP mechanic page and do the math for all the scnarios.

3. The waves don't go by significantly faster, in survival you are often not near enough to get the "boom" xp from molecular prime, it's why small defense maps are usually better for leveling weapons, unless you have a survival team which sticks together.

4. Nova clears out the boring lower levels of defense, then usually leaves, rarely do they stay past wave 15 or 20...so that's not correct. Plus its a game, people want to play not "catch up on funny cat videos". Your last point illustrates exactly why I make the point that Nova is "unfun" for others. People want to play, not watch a Nova do it's thing for 15 or 20 waves then leave.

Inez post is an example of how facts and logic are twisted to fit the views many Nova players express....it even finishes by telling us that we should just sit back and do nothing while the Nova does all the work. Is that what he thinks makes a good game of Warframe for others?

[ThePresident777]

Totally agree with the above. Nova is too powerful and needs nerfing, to argue otherwise is to simply ignore all valid arguments. It's a frame that makes the game "unfun" for other people, this is for an entire normal mission or the first 25-30 waves of defense or the first 20-30m of survival. It leaves the rest of the team with nothing to do. As most games don't progress beyond these points...then the "need Nova at high level" argument is specious, plus most Novas want to go when they can't make everything blow up.

Another point was made in an earlier post (and one I made much earlier on). If you are leveling a specific weapon, it's going to level a lot slower with a Nova spamming MP. Shoot something yourself you get 50% XP on your weapon and 50% on your warframe. Watch them all go boom and you only get 25% on your weapon.

Now Nova players argue that this isn't the case, but the facts are, if you kill an enemy with the weapon the XP is split equally between your frame and your weapon. If other people kill it, no matter how, you only get 25% of the XP on that specific weapon your trying to level. Nova players say yeah but your getting 25% of everything that's killed by MP or anything else(assuming your in range). This is true, but what they neglect to mention is. Your one shot causing 20 enemies to go boom, nets you a less XP than when you kill more than 1 of them with your weapon.

e.g. You and Nova are playing, your leveling up your rifle (everything else you have is fully ranked). Its a defense so all enemies have to be killed anyway. The Nova spams prime, so all that's happening is each time you fire a shot, most of them blow up. Lets assume (just for the calculation) there is 50 enemies each wave and each enemy is worth 500XP.

Nova MP = 40 Kills

Nova weapon = 6 kills

You weapon = 4 Kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 45 kills to your rifle = 5750XP + 4 kills you did =1000XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 6750

===============================

If now we have a different frame

Excalibur (doesn't matter how it kills stuff) = 25kills

You = 25 kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 25 kills to your rifle = 3400XP + 25 kills you did = 6250XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 9650

===============================

Now this is going to happen wave after wave after wave...as you can see your weapon has the potential to level up much faster with No Nova on the team. it's not just a theory, out in the field it works the same way. You can see how much faster stuff levels once you have leveled enough stuff in both scenarios.

source of info for calculations http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_Mechanics

P.S. A Nova lover will come on and say, ah you don't get 500XP, or you might kill more than 5, or there's less/more than 50 enemies per wave. It's just a smokescreen. The numbers are just as an example to show the calculations of the mechanic. Whether you get 258xp or 620xp or there is 27 or 38 or 65 enemies per wave, it doesn't matter. it's the way XP is worked out which means: If you are trying to rank a specific weapon or frame (just 1 thing). Your are loosing out whenever you see them all go boom. They will also say, ah but other frames can use their ultis...sure they can, but you just look at the kills at the end of the mission. With a Nova, it's often a huge proportion of the kills to them, which is stuff you never got the chance to kill and thus lost out on specific weapon XP. With no Nova, the kills are usually more evenly distributed.

 

The funny thing is that I leveled Nekros and 3 weapons at once, without Novas in the party, and it was slow.  It was not faster than playing with Nova.  According to your scenarios, it should have been faster.  But, it wasn't.  I experienced the same thing with Oberon and Valkyr.

 

Maybe something else is going on.  Maybe something like the fact that the faster you kill the faster the enemy respawns.  Which, gives you more XP in the end.

 

All of that is besides the point that I don't play to level.  I play to have fun and leveling is not fun.  Leveling is something you just get over with.  If the leveling is interfering with fun then the leveling system is the problem.  Maybe XP should be distributed equally no matter how something dies or who kills it.  It's a coop game and leveling has nothing to do with strategy or tactics or any game play at all.  The problem is that the XP distribution has nothing to do with the game.  It doesn't belong in Warframe because it is a distraction from the game.

[ThePresident777]

Nova is a classic example of a "First order optimal Strategy"

 

 

Time = 2 minutes for FOOS explanation

 

Direct link: http://youtu.be/6op8eV5OBwE?t=2m1s

 

 

@~3:03,  "If the designer creates a FOO strategy in his game without realizing it, all the depth he worked so hard to build in there, is just going to go completely unnoticed."  

 

To which I respond, what depth?  People were complaining about press 4 to win since before Nova.  They have complained about every single 4 in the game.  And many of them have been nerfed.  Then the nerfs get compalined about too.  Everything you guys are saying about Mprime was said about every ult, and some non-ults, since long before Nova.  FOO strategy has been at the heart of the game since day 1.  This has never been a combo moves game or anything close to it.  And, I'm fine with that.  

 

The funny thing is that press 4 to win suits dumb horde mode just fine.  If you want more depth, you're not going to get it by just nerfing Mprime.  You're going to need completely different missions where you are not about waves and waves of swarms dumb mooks.

 

So you are looking in the wrong place for the solution to your problem.  You don't have the context to complain about what annoys you.  You complaints are inappropriate.

 

So, first you ask for a context.  Then when something does not fit in the context, you ask for that thing to be changed.  So, one more time, ask DE for more missions that you like then ask that powers fit the mission when playing that mission, not the entire game..

[SeaUrchins]

Nova is antimatter warframe. It has to be overpowered, otherwise no point for it to use antimatter.

[DaveC]

The funny thing is that I leveled Nekros and 3 weapons at once, without Novas in the party, and it was slow.  It was not faster than playing with Nova.  According to your scenarios, it should have been faster.  But, it wasn't.  I experienced the same thing with Oberon and Valkyr.

 

Maybe something else is going on.  Maybe something like the fact that the faster you kill the faster the enemy respawns.  Which, gives you more XP in the end.

You managed to quote the ONLY scenario where its better to rank on shared XP, "a frame and 3 weapons". But its not slower without a Nova, simply because the shared XP mechanic in this particular situation is the same. It doesn't matter how they are killed, if they are killed by others you get 25% to everything. The ONLY reason it might seem slower, is that because you have more of a chance to kill stuff, the XP from your personal kill is split 50/50 between the weapon that made the kill and your warframe and not distributed evenly between 3 weapons and a Warframe.

The only thing that is going on, is your lack of understanding of the XP mechanics.

Edited January 2, 2014 by DaveC

[-CM-Syein]

Totally agree with the above. Nova is too powerful and needs nerfing, to argue otherwise is to simply ignore all valid arguments. It's a frame that makes the game "unfun" for other people, this is for an entire normal mission or the first 25-30 waves of defense or the first 20-30m of survival. It leaves the rest of the team with nothing to do. As most games don't progress beyond these points...then the "need Nova at high level" argument is specious, plus most Novas want to go when they can't make everything blow up.

Another point was made in an earlier post (and one I made much earlier on). If you are leveling a specific weapon, it's going to level a lot slower with a Nova spamming MP. Shoot something yourself you get 50% XP on your weapon and 50% on your warframe. Watch them all go boom and you only get 25% on your weapon.

Now Nova players argue that this isn't the case, but the facts are, if you kill an enemy with the weapon the XP is split equally between your frame and your weapon. If other people kill it, no matter how, you only get 25% of the XP on that specific weapon your trying to level. Nova players say yeah but your getting 25% of everything that's killed by MP or anything else(assuming your in range). This is true, but what they neglect to mention is. Your one shot causing 20 enemies to go boom, nets you a less XP than when you kill more than 1 of them with your weapon.

e.g. You and Nova are playing, your leveling up your rifle (everything else you have is fully ranked). Its a defense so all enemies have to be killed anyway. The Nova spams prime, so all that's happening is each time you fire a shot, most of them blow up. Lets assume (just for the calculation) there is 50 enemies each wave and each enemy is worth 500XP.

Nova MP = 40 Kills

Nova weapon = 6 kills

You weapon = 4 Kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 45 kills to your rifle = 5750XP + 4 kills you did =1000XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 6750

===============================

If now we have a different frame

Excalibur (doesn't matter how it kills stuff) = 25kills

You = 25 kills

At the end of the wave you get 25% of XP from 25 kills to your rifle = 3400XP + 25 kills you did = 6250XP

TOTAL XP for your weapon = 9650

===============================

Now this is going to happen wave after wave after wave...as you can see your weapon has the potential to level up much faster with No Nova on the team. it's not just a theory, out in the field it works the same way. You can see how much faster stuff levels once you have leveled enough stuff in both scenarios.

source of info for calculations http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_Mechanics

P.S. A Nova lover will come on and say, ah you don't get 500XP, or you might kill more than 5, or there's less/more than 50 enemies per wave. It's just a smokescreen. The numbers are just as an example to show the calculations of the mechanic. Whether you get 258xp or 620xp or there is 27 or 38 or 65 enemies per wave, it doesn't matter. it's the way XP is worked out which means: If you are trying to rank a specific weapon or frame (just 1 thing). Your are loosing out whenever you see them all go boom. They will also say, ah but other frames can use their ultis...sure they can, but you just look at the kills at the end of the mission. With a Nova, it's often a huge proportion of the kills to them, which is stuff you never got the chance to kill and thus lost out on specific weapon XP. With no Nova, the kills are usually more evenly distributed.

did you know, no matter how spam m-prime is, Nova can't kill every and last single mobs in the area for case of re spawn mobs. Also you haven't really take a look at non-chainable m-prime where you have to kill 1 mob in order to chain the others, and something explosion is not high enough to chain. 

You evaluation only happened on low level mission. I mean who else could constant kill all mobs beside Nova? No animation, no shoot in order to explode. Just need one button for immediate kill? Plenty.