Nova Getting Nerfed!?

[-CM-Syein]

See, the issue with you is that you seem to be denying that there is a problem at all. Your stance is that there is not a problem, and my stance is that nova needs to be balanced. You refuse to do anything except dodge points and refuse to respond to 99% of content except things unrelated to the topic. I also certainly do not want universiality, I want a power that is extensively out of line with the rest of the game, and creates a dominant, first order optimal strategy, with a layer of content trivialization to be brought back into line.  I do not care how, but it simply needs to be brought in line.

 

About your response to the amd's. Well duh, the players pump it with damage. This is about damage, not who is tanking the hits, you stated that a team of four novas will not have the damage potential of a compisition of a nova with other frames. That is false and I called you out on it, don't change topic, admit that you were wrong or refute properly.

 

So what if they don't stack. It still has more damage potential then two or even three ults combined with probably more CC as well, and if it can further increase the power of other ults its just another bad mark. Also keep in mind this is about nova as a whole, you can nerf M Prime by nerfing the frame it resides in.

 

Also, it is fitting that you would call me out on dodging points, when you have spent nearly 10 full pages doing so.

 

Really, most of the arguments from your side have been refuted to near death, yet they still get repeated. Sometimes you have the decency to post something that hasn't been refuted, but I am getting tired of hearing about novas "downsides". She has none, you just subconsciously believe so, and I can say that because I have used her, and then used many other frames. If the game had non-broken mechanics those weaknesses would exist, and would be noticeable in play, but the fact is that right now it doesn't. Buffing everything doesn't work either, you just end up with even more of a press 4 to win game. Every piece of content that DE will ever release, no matter how hard they work will always be trivialized beyond belief if we buff everything to the same level as nova, or a host of other frames for that matter.

Nova is fine the way she is. Yes, a team of 4 Novas can not last long compared to Nova + other frames. What wrong about that? It's the truth, everybody should know this. Damage potential is not everything, did you even play Nova in survival mission with 3 other Novas? What the point in stacking m-prime together when they input the same effect. 

[-CM-Syein]

Another tip here: you can check people's profiles in game.

If you're not in the same clan or in friend list, don't think you can check their profile. 

[Inez]

If you're not in the same clan or in friend list, don't think you can check their profile.

You're mastery level zero with zero hours played.

[DaveC]

If you're not in the same clan or in friend list, don't think you can check their profile.

Yup that's correct. Also when they state the PUG games everyone leaves at 10, or 15 waves or perhaps sometimes 20. Of course I know that, it's part of my argument as to why Nova needs revision. Imagine newer players sitting in the corner with their thumb up their arse watching a 5 times formad nova make everything go boom, then leave at wave 15 or 20.

It's not the best gaming experience is it...

Sure their gonna say, plenty of other frames can do that.....well they can't, not like Nova.....it's unfun for others.

I have nearly 1200 hrs in game, I've got all the frames, including a Nova, but I couldn't bring myself to forma it...ridiculous and I don't play it any more. In fact it was one of my least played frames.

[Takai]

Nova is squishy at high level game-play...

She does not like Slash Damage... and she does not pop the entire room with ease when the enemy surpasses lvl 30.

Now I will grant you this... the damage amp that accounts for entire enemy's body makes Banshee's specific limb damage amp a bit less desirable (even though Banshee's does more amp, but I dont have numbers with me)

Now, if you go into a lvl 10 mission with Nova and rocket launcher... and MP everything... you are a lazy bear.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Takai

[Cwierz]

Nova is squishy at high level game-play...

She does not like Slash Damage... and she does not pop the entire room with ease when the enemy surpasses lvl 30.

Now I will grant you this... the damage amp that accounts for entire enemy's body makes Banshee's specific limb damage amp a bit less desirable (even though Banshee's does more amp, but I dont have numbers with me)

Now, if you go into a lvl 10 mission with Nova and rocket launcher... and MP everything... you are a lazy bear.

That is a lie. M Prime does easily kill enemies past level 30, I just did a survival run where enemies were level 100, M Prime was still chaining. Also, squishiness is not a valid argument, I have argued it to death. I don't feel like repeating myself, but look back at my posts and one of them addresses it a couple pages back. There is only a very tiny window aproaching level 60 to 80 depending on enemy in which her squishiness actually matters and is noticeable, otherwise every frame is going to die just as fast, or never goes down unless you are bad.

 

This is another example of a post that makes arguments already presented and fully refuted. Why do people not lurk at least a couple pages, back... it boggles my mind.

Nova is fine the way she is.

Well I disagree, and have stated my reasons why. I am done repeating myself, if you want to be a part of this you need to go back and actually refute something.

Yes, a team of 4 Novas can not last long compared to Nova + other frames. What wrong about that? It's the truth, everybody should know this.

Duh, I dunno what this has to do with my post. The argument I was in stated that a team of 4 novas had worse damage potential then a team with a nova and three other nukers. That is false, and I called it out. You shouldn't  jump in an argument you hadn't lurked

Damage potential is not everything, did you even play Nova in survival mission with 3 other Novas?

Duh, again. Read the above, I was calling him out about his misinformation. Stop being a derp and don't respond to arguments you haven't lurked. If this forum didn't have censorship for the light heart-ed, there would be so many things I would say, but am afraid to do so just because of forum moderation.

What the point in stacking m-prime together when they input the same effect. 

That wasn't the point of my post. The point of my post was that 4 antimatter drops and a M Prime is currently the end all of damage dealing in the game, regardless of how much you want to argue it.

That post was terrible. You do not even know the context of the argument, and therefor you should not post anything regarding it unless you have lurked enough (knowing you, you will probably say something like "who are you to tell me, I can say whatever I want!"). Seriously, you have no idea how bad your posts look, they are filled with wrong information, grammar errors, and usually do not even address the actual content in the post. I really just cannot fathom how you think you are addressing anything in my post at all, and you will probably respond with a post just as ignorant as your last.

 

You fail to comprehend any posts made, and respond with general ignorant statements... WHY? Is there nothing that can be said to enlighten you about the argument, at all... or are you still stuck on the mentality that all nerfs are bad. If you are, you have no place talking about game balance.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Cwierz

[Thaumatos]

Why people don't want a Nova nerf is the same exact reason why Nova needs to be nerfed.  Nova is easymode.

 

 

Here's how you nerf mprime:

 

Detonated units can set off other primed units, but will only receive Molecular Prime's damage once

 

Done.

[ThePresident777]

Yup that's correct. Also when they state the PUG games everyone leaves at 10, or 15 waves or perhaps sometimes 20. Of course I know that, it's part of my argument as to why Nova needs revision. Imagine newer players sitting in the corner with their thumb up their arse watching a 5 times formad nova make everything go boom, then leave at wave 15 or 20.

It's not the best gaming experience is it...

Sure their gonna say, plenty of other frames can do that.....well they can't, not like Nova.....it's unfun for others.

I have nearly 1200 hrs in game, I've got all the frames, including a Nova, but I couldn't bring myself to forma it...ridiculous and I don't play it any more. In fact it was one of my least played frames.

 

But this happened before Nova.

[ThePresident777]

See, the issue with you is that you seem to be denying that there is a problem at all. Your stance is that there is not a problem, and my stance is that nova needs to be balanced. You refuse to do anything except dodge points and refuse to respond to 99% of content except things unrelated to the topic. I also certainly do not want universiality, I want a power that is extensively out of line with the rest of the game, and creates a dominant, first order optimal strategy, with a layer of content trivialization to be brought back into line.  I do not care how, but it simply needs to be brought in line.

 

About your response to the amd's. Well duh, the players pump it with damage. This is about damage, not who is tanking the hits, you stated that a team of four novas will not have the damage potential of a compisition of a nova with other frames. That is false and I called you out on it, don't change topic, admit that you were wrong or refute properly.

 

So what if they don't stack. It still has more damage potential then two or even three ults combined with probably more CC as well, and if it can further increase the power of other ults its just another bad mark. Also keep in mind this is about nova as a whole, you can nerf M Prime by nerfing the frame it resides in.

 

Also, it is fitting that you would call me out on dodging points, when you have spent nearly 10 full pages doing so.

 

Really, most of the arguments from your side have been refuted to near death, yet they still get repeated. Sometimes you have the decency to post something that hasn't been refuted, but I am getting tired of hearing about novas "downsides". She has none, you just subconsciously believe so, and I can say that because I have used her, and then used many other frames. If the game had non-broken mechanics those weaknesses would exist, and would be noticeable in play, but the fact is that right now it doesn't. Buffing everything doesn't work either, you just end up with even more of a press 4 to win game. Every piece of content that DE will ever release, no matter how hard they work will always be trivialized beyond belief if we buff everything to the same level as nova, or a host of other frames for that matter.

 

 

There is no problem with Nova.

 

The problem is other ults with measly damage and radius, and slow warframes.  And the even larger problem, lack of missions.

 

Demonizing my fun is not going to convince me to accept your boredom.  I play this trivialized content everyday and what dampens my fun is slow movement, small ability radii, low ability damage, low energy in normal missions, 24 hour wait on mastery tests, 12 hour waits in the foundry, rng'ed nightmare mode, etc., i.e., all the boring ideas from D&D, Mass  Effect, EA, MMOs, etc.  I have fun moving fast and seeing massive explosions, I just do.  It doesn't bother me at all to see a world full of mooks pop at the snap of a finger.  It entertains me.  These are things that you consider bad game design.  But, that is just your arbitrary bias masquerading as what it's not.

 

 

About AMD, it takes time to pump it with damage and it has a 15 meter radius.  When you factor those important facts, I'm not so sure even 4 of those compare to a diverse team.

 

 

I like press 4 to win.  Have no issue with it whatsoever.  Mprime increasing other ability's damage is great game design.  It's totally coop.  Fits a coop game just fine.

[-CM-Syein]

You're mastery level zero with zero hours played.

unless you mean you have to add that person to look into profile, then there's no way to check someone profile through normal mean without pending add. 

Also, you seem to love assumption. 

[-CM-Syein]

Why people don't want a Nova nerf is the same exact reason why Nova needs to be nerfed.  Nova is easymode.

 

 

Here's how you nerf mprime:

 

Detonated units can set off other primed units, but will only receive Molecular Prime's damage once

 

Done.

 

Why people don't want a Nova nerf is the same exact reason why Nova needs to be nerfed.  Nova is easymode.

 

 

Here's how you nerf mprime:

 

Detonated units can set off other primed units, but will only receive Molecular Prime's damage once

 

Done.

 

Why people don't want a Nova nerf is the same exact reason why Nova needs to be nerfed.  Nova is easymode.

 

 

Here's how you nerf mprime:

 

Detonated units can set off other primed units, but will only receive Molecular Prime's damage once

 

Done.

this post ignored every valid points that been made in this thread. =_=

[-CM-Syein]

That is a lie. M Prime does easily kill enemies past level 30, I just did a survival run where enemies were level 100, M Prime was still chaining. Also, squishiness is not a valid argument, I have argued it to death. I don't feel like repeating myself, but look back at my posts and one of them addresses it a couple pages back. There is only a very tiny window aproaching level 60 to 80 depending on enemy in which her squishiness actually matters and is noticeable, otherwise every frame is going to die just as fast, or never goes down unless you are bad.

 

This is another example of a post that makes arguments already presented and fully refuted. Why do people not lurk at least a couple pages, back... it boggles my mind.

That post was terrible. You do not even know the context of the argument, and therefor you should not post anything regarding it unless you have lurked enough (knowing you, you will probably say something like "who are you to tell me, I can say whatever I want!"). Seriously, you have no idea how bad your posts look, they are filled with wrong information, grammar errors, and usually do not even address the actual content in the post. I really just cannot fathom how you think you are addressing anything in my post at all, and you will probably respond with a post just as ignorant as your last.

 

You fail to comprehend any posts made, and respond with general ignorant statements... WHY? Is there nothing that can be said to enlighten you about the argument, at all... or are you still stuck on the mentality that all nerfs are bad. If you are, you have no place talking about game balance.

well too bad, all you do is insult people and tell them not to post. While you have no right to tell them not to do things that they can do. You might as well eat your words in this matter. 

"WHY? Is there nothing that can be said to enlighten you about the argument" 

And I never said all nerf are bad, I only made points as to why Nova shouldn't be nerf, isn't this prove that you just a hypocrite and didn't read my posts the same as to why you said I didn't read your post? Please practice what you preach. 

Edited January 4, 2014 by SElZE

[Cwierz]

 Please practice what you preach. 

I had responses in the body of your quote. So yeah, you didn't notice those, so you probably didn't read my post. Also, you constantly say things like "nerfer", or "just looking to nerf", this implies directly that you do not like nerfing.

And my predictions where correct as well, you responded with "who are you to tell me that, i can say whatever I want1"

and your post was just as ignorant as the last.

 

I would have a serious debate with you, but you truly need to realize that the problem with this is on your side.

 

There is no problem with Nova.

 

The problem is other ults with measly damage and radius, and slow warframes.  And the even larger problem, lack of missions.

 

Demonizing my fun is not going to convince me to accept your boredom.  I play this trivialized content everyday and what dampens my fun is slow movement, small ability radii, low ability damage, low energy in normal missions, 24 hour wait on mastery tests, 12 hour waits in the foundry, rng'ed nightmare mode, etc., i.e., all the boring ideas from D&D, Mass  Effect, EA, MMOs, etc.  I have fun moving fast and seeing massive explosions, I just do.  It doesn't bother me at all to see a world full of mooks pop at the snap of a finger.  It entertains me.  These are things that you consider bad game design.  But, that is just your arbitrary bias masquerading as what it's not.

 

 

About AMD, it takes time to pump it with damage and it has a 15 meter radius.  When you factor those important facts, I'm not so sure even 4 of those compare to a diverse team.

 

 

I like press 4 to win.  Have no issue with it whatsoever.  Mprime increasing other ability's damage is great game design.  It's totally coop.  Fits a coop game just fine.

Other ults lack power are because those were things that made them unique from others, and what set them apart in making a choice before nova came along. There is no bias when I say that nova is way better than every other damage dealing frame at what it does, and that it is bad for the game. Making other frames just like her universalizes the game, and just makes us go in a redundant cycle. It isn't that everything else is bad, its that the element you are specifying is too good, and even if it wasn't the other way around you would adjust it to be in line, not move the line to it. It is a bad design philosophy because each time DE releases a questionable piece of a content, instead of fixing it we just make everything just as good as it, and is part of the reason the game has gotten so out of hand lately.

 

I also really do not get why you go back to fun every single post. FUN IS CRAPPY METRIC because it varies so much, and anything meets its criteria with the proper mindset. There are people who think nova is unfun, but that isn't the reason everybody posts, and you can't seem to get that through your head. I am posting this because nova is unbalanced, you have not been able to say why not, and every other person in this thread has been incapable as well. It does not matter if something is fun when you are discussing balance, things can still be fun with balance, and the fun does not come from the imbalance. Nova, can most certainly be a frame where you can jump around causing explosions, but she shouldn't be so imbalanced in doing so. I mean, hell, I already gave up on trying to explain to you why nova was imbalanced in the first place because you argued the merits of game balance when I did.

 

4 amds, time to pump damage into? You crazy? 1 vectis shot from each nova without a primed chamber, and a standard mod setup, between all of the amds, you are doing 89920 without the base damage from them. That is obviously far and away better than anything every other frame got in combination even the mag+excalibur combo. And shield polarize isn't gonna work here, because it doesn't do anything against 1/2 of all enemy types. 

 

I just don't think you understand why fun is not a valid argument. You can still have fun if nova is balanced, stop denying this. Your arbitrary fun has nothing to do with balance, so stop trying to insist that your fun has anything to do with it.

All of your arguments are invalid besides the ones I addressed. You refuse to acknowledge and comprehend information from posts, and when people refute your arguments you just repeat them in hopes that it will turn out different that time.

I feel like every time I arguer with somebody from your side of the debate its the same thing over and over, and the same arguments over and over, and the same fallacies over and over, and the same lack of understanding over and over, and the same disregard for logic over and over, and the same disregard for game balance over and over. 

This is the third argument you have made me quit with your antics.

[Vaskadar]

I feel if they do end up subtracting utility from her molecular prime, they'd best subtract the slowing effect of M Prime. It is massive (and easily the best) CC at this point in the game's development due to the triple-threat combination of AOE, Double Damage, and Slowing. If you take out one of the two extra effects (or reduce the magnitude), it would be more acceptable than per se, reducing the damage M Prime itself deals without the double damage.

The increased damage received is necessary to trigger Molecular Prime on higher levels, so slowing the enemies down should be the one thing to go, if they do end up nerfing it.

She certainly makes T3 defense a lot easier than it normally is.

[-CM-Syein]

I had responses in the body of your quote. So yeah, you didn't notice those, so you probably didn't read my post. Also, you constantly say things like "nerfer", or "just looking to nerf", this implies directly that you do not like nerfing.

And my predictions where correct as well, you responded with "who are you to tell me that, i can say whatever I want1"

and your post was just as ignorant as the last.

 

I would have a serious debate with you, but you truly need to realize that the problem with this is on your side.

 

 

"nerfer" , "just looking for nerf" doesn't mean I'm against all nerf, I just hate unreasonable nerf. Especially for people who always cry nerf without open themselves to other possibility beside nerfing. 

And I did state that I would reply to the post over and over against regarding my argument, and it is up to you to reply to it or not. Seem like no matter how much you hate my post, you always reply to it, not with argument but with insulting comment, as well as preaching. 

 

Back to my argument: Nova is fine the way she is, majority of people want her to be nerf is because she kill more mobs than them. 

In the game we had healer, tanker, defender, etc and Nova happened to be offender. She is a pure damage frame. People only look at damage and forget other traits. If this game is purely for damage, we wouldn't have mission such as defense and survival. 

[-CM-Syein]

I feel if they do end up subtracting utility from her molecular prime, they'd best subtract the slowing effect of M Prime. It is massive (and easily the best) CC at this point in the game's development due to the triple-threat combination of AOE, Double Damage, and Slowing. If you take out one of the two extra effects (or reduce the magnitude), it would be more acceptable than per se, reducing the damage M Prime itself deals without the double damage.

The increased damage received is necessary to trigger Molecular Prime on higher levels, so slowing the enemies down should be the one thing to go, if they do end up nerfing it.

She certainly makes T3 defense a lot easier than it normally is.

unfortunately, most people that want Nova nerf, don't have problem with her slowing down the enemies, but only have problem with her dealing high damage. 

I'm not against DE take out the slowness m-prime gave for Nova, because that's a survival skill. In order to keep Nova an offend frame, she doesn't need the slowness effect. 

However, I doubt even if the slowness is no longer there in m-prime, people would still cry nerf. Since to them, damage is everything. 

[DaveC]

I feel like every time I arguer with somebody from your side of the debate its the same thing over and over, and the same arguments over and over, and the same fallacies over and over, and the same lack of understanding over and over, and the same disregard for logic over and over, and the same disregard for game balance over and over. 

This is the third argument you have made me quit with your antics.

The problem is, this is what the Nova lovers want you to do...they don't want a cogent argument.

1. If you are ranking a specific weapon, or your Warframe, you are better off the more kills you personally do with that frame or weapon (FACT). Nova players want you to believe that watching everything blow up is good for you, the game and your XP...well it's not. Stuff definitely ranks up faster without a Nova, because you get more chance to do your own kills. In defense the amount of enemies is finite per wave, so the faster kill more come argument doesn't hold water. In fact defence is slower with MP spammed, because of the slow leaving them all across the map. In survival, you will have trouble keeping up with the Nova to see any shared XP.

2. It gives 3 effects from 1 ulti, massive slow, double damage and the chain reaction. The amount of damage it deals can be made to be double anything any other frame is capable of with careful modding. Regardless of how well the other frames are modded.

3. They always state how much other players love having a Nova on the team....this is not my experience, the opposite does however seem to be true. Lots of players don't like Nova, refuse to play her and certainly don't like having one on the team. When I read how much a "Nova Helps", I often remember comments in chat on PUG games along the line of "a Nova only helps themselves".

4. The ulti can be modded to use a ridiculously small amount of energy from an oversize 450 energy pool....when you consider just how effective it is. This allows almost continuous in game spamming. Unbelievably you DON'T have to wait for the effect of the first MP or all affected enemies to be killed, before you can spam it again, how good is that!!!!

5. And Novas leave after they have pretty much made everyone else a 3rd wheel for 20m...when the going get's tough they get going.

The only way this will ever change is for experienced players who understand how bad this frame is for the game, for ranking weapons and for new players.......is to not revive them. I no longer revive Novas in game, which at least gives a 10 second respite against molecular prime being spammed, while someone else revives them.

I made this decision (not to revive novas) today in a Xini defense after watching 2 Novas pass straight by a downed player, simply so they could spam prime and get more kills. I waited, to see if they would revive the player they were standing next to and they did nothing, just ran on killing stuff. I got to him just before he died. Also once on a survival at very high level, the Nova didn't even attempt to revive me, just ran past, unfortunately for the team, I was the trinity keeping them all alive and we failed the mission.

Edited January 4, 2014 by DaveC

[DaveC]

unfortunately, most people that want Nova nerf, don't have problem with her slowing down the enemies, but only have problem with her dealing high damage. 

However, I doubt even if the slowness is no longer there in m-prime, people would still cry nerf. Since to them, damage is everything.

There you go putting words into other peoples mouths.....how do you know this!

The changes i would like to see to MP & Nova are simple....it would involve no change to double damage, no change to the massive slowing, no change to the amount of damage. How good is this for the Nova lovers

1. MP should NOT be able to be recast until either all enemies effected are killed, or the effect has reached the end of its duration (1 minute I think). This would make the Nova have to "think" before casting. it's also a perfectly reasonable change in line with some other ultis. If this seems harsh then the effect duration of MP could be limited to a hard 25 seconds. This is double the hard effect duration of Rhino stomp, but as MP does double the damage, it seems fair enough.

2. The energy pool of Nova needs to be reduced and should be around 300, comparable with Rhino, Saryn, Vauban etc...

Both perfectly resonable proposals which would stop the blatant spamming of MP even when not necessary.

[-CM-Syein]

The problem is, this is what the Nova lovers want you to do...they don't want a cogent argument.

1. If you are ranking a specific weapon, or your Warframe, you are better off the more kills you personally do with that frame or weapon (FACT). Nova players want you to believe that watching everything blow up is good for you, the game and your XP...well it's not. Stuff definitely ranks up faster without a Nova, because you get more chance to do your own kills. In defense the amount of enemies is finite per wave, so the faster kill more come argument doesn't hold water. In fact defence is slower with MP spammed, because of the slow leaving them all across the map. In survival, you will have trouble keeping up with the Nova to see any shared XP.

2. It gives 3 effects from 1 ulti, massive slow, double damage and the chain reaction. The amount of damage it deals can be made to be double anything any other frame is capable of with careful modding. Regardless of how well the other frames are modded.

3. They always state how much other players love having a Nova on the team....this is not my experience, the opposite does however seem to be true. Lots of players don't like Nova, refuse to play her and certainly don't like having one on the team. When I read how much a "Nova Helps", I often remember comments in chat on PUG games along the line of "a Nova only helps themselves".

4. The ulti can be modded to use a ridiculously small amount of energy from an oversize 450 energy pool....when you consider just how effective it is. This allows almost continuous in game spamming. Unbelievably you DON'T have to wait for the effect of the first MP or all affected enemies to be killed, before you can spam it again, how good is that!!!!

5. And Novas leave after they have pretty much made everyone else a 3rd wheel for 20m...when the going get's tough they get going.

The only way this will ever change is for experienced players who understand how bad this frame is for the game, for ranking weapons and for new players.......is to not revive them. I no longer revive Novas in game, which at least gives a 10 second respite against molecular prime being spammed, while someone else revives them.

I made this decision (not to revive novas) today in a Xini defense after watching 2 Novas pass straight by a downed player, simply so they could spam prime and get more kills. I waited, to see if they would revive the player they were standing next to and they did nothing, just ran on killing stuff. I got to him just before he died. Also once on a survival at very high level, the Nova didn't even attempt to revive me, just ran past, unfortunately for the team, I was the trinity keeping them all alive and we failed the mission.

this is actually a good idea, I mean you don't need to revive them. Nova is not a survival frame in the beginning, so they easily go down compared to other frames. But there are Nova who doesn't spam m-prime as well. Someone actually got angry with a frost for not making his globe, and a Trinity that doesn't activate blessing, but when it come to Nova, people had the opposite attitude. 

Especially it's Trinity job to keep team member alive and Nova's job is to damage. But if this is how you handle Nova without crying nerf in the forum, then I actually respect you for that. 

I don't revive people sometimes as well, people who keep spamming their ults and ruin other gameplay, Nova is not an exception. But sometimes I need them alive to keep the mission go on. So it all depend on situation. 

And if you're a trinity, others find fault with you as well. Near Immortal, most players don't want that. so best keep your duration down. 

[-CM-Syein]

There you go putting words into other peoples mouths.....how do you know this!

The changes i would like to see to MP & Nova are simple....it would involve no change to double damage, no change to the massive slowing, no change to the amount of damage. How good is this for the Nova lovers

1. MP should NOT be able to be recast until either all enemies effected are killed, or the effect has reached the end of its duration (1 minute I think). This would make the Nova have to "think" before casting. it's also a perfectly reasonable change in line with some other ultis. If this seems harsh then the effect duration of MP could be limited to a hard 25 seconds. This is double the hard effect duration of Rhino stomp, but as MP does double the damage, it seems fair enough.

2. The energy pool of Nova needs to be reduced and should be around 300, comparable with Rhino, Saryn, Vauban etc...

Both perfectly resonable proposals which would stop the blatant spamming of MP even when not necessary.

Did you forget that Saryn, Rhino, Vauban had their special skills of it own to keep them alive much longer than Nova? Also I'm not against energy pool of Nova to be 300.

Your first suggesting will turn Nova into a hide and seek frame, some enemies are hard to find, especially with the slowness m-prime gave, and some are just glitches at their entrance. It won't make the Nova had to "think", it will make the Nova put time to find the enemies while others can just spam their ult whenever they wanted, and Nova the only one with that restriction because her ult deal the most dps compare to all frames. Instead of thinking, ohh what about a mag crush and crush wherever she go (crush had a very long range, enough to cover the whole room, or a trinity keep spamming well of life now I can't seem to die, or frost keep making globe now my bullet won't hurt the enemies unless I'm in his globe etc. All of them can be spam.  

[DaveC]

Did you forget that Saryn, Rhino, Vauban had their special skills of it own to keep them alive much longer than Nova? Also I'm not against energy pool of Nova to be 300.

Your first suggesting will turn Nova into a hide and seek frame, some enemies are hard to find, especially with the slowness m-prime gave, and some are just glitches at their entrance. It won't make the Nova had to "think", it will make the Nova put time to find the enemies while others can just spam their ult whenever they wanted,

Well the energy limitation won't do much to an ulti that takes 25 energy to spam....so 300, 450 makes little difference. BUT if your saying that unless Nova can spam her ulti all over the map time after time with no wait, she becomes unplayable. You are saying that there is no way to stop the misery for the rest of us.

You forget Nova is very fast, has wormhole and Null star (bring back the stagger) and doesn't have to run to the next area of enemies where they are not affected by MP. It doesn't turn it into a hide and seek frame and with the shade sentinel equipped makes it still quite survivable...because it's not as squishy as some frames and faster than most.....my suggestions simply stop the damm spamming of MP every few seconds.

The 300 energy pool only works in conjunction with the MP change, because Nova then has to use her other abilities to survive, so energy choices become important....because they are in other frames to keep them alive, it's not their ultis that keep them alive. Also with only 300 energy, the modders have less space to play with to make it OP, because they then have to use full "flow", rather than a lower level flow with more space for other mods.

Edited January 4, 2014 by DaveC

[-CM-Syein]

Well the energy limitation won't do much to an ulti that takes 25 energy to spam....so 300, 450 makes little difference. BUT if your saying that unless Nova can spam her ulti all over the map time after time with no wait, she becomes unplayable. You are saying that there is no way to stop the misery for the rest of us.

You forget Nova is very fast, has wormhole and Null star (bring back the stagger) and doesn't have to run to the next area of enemies where they are not affected by MP. It doesn't turn it into a hide and seek frame and with the shade sentinel equipped makes it still quite survivable...because it's not as squishy as some frames and faster than most.....my suggestions simply stop the damm spamming of MP every few seconds.

The 300 energy pool only works in conjunction with the MP change, because Nova then has to use her other abilities to survive, so energy choices become important....because they are in other frames to keep them alive, it's not their ultis that keep them alive.

most Nova probably replace null star with some other mods because it doesn't help much in dps, only help her tickle the mobs that sneak behind nova.

Worm hole had limit to where you going, worm hole also cost 75 energy (no extra mod) per use, and molecular prime is 100 energy (no extra mod) per use, so basically if you use more than 2-3 worm hole, you likely won't be able to use any m-prime at all. Worm hole travel at a straight distance, the map is not that easy (unless it's a spacious place such as void) with no obstacle so Nova likely drop somewhere in the map and have to use worm hole again to get out of that spot. I haven't seen many Nova spam worm hole during the fight unless they were heading toward extraction point. 

If m-prime is the only thing ruin the game, I wouldn't complain. If m-prime were to stop spamming every few seconds, every other ult that capable of spamming should had a time constrict as well. 

[ThePresident777]

Other ults lack power are because those were things that made them unique from others, and what set them apart in making a choice before nova came along. There is no bias when I say that nova is way better than every other damage dealing frame at what it does, and that it is bad for the game. Making other frames just like her universalizes the game, and just makes us go in a redundant cycle. It isn't that everything else is bad, its that the element you are specifying is too good, and even if it wasn't the other way around you would adjust it to be in line, not move the line to it. It is a bad design philosophy because each time DE releases a questionable piece of a content, instead of fixing it we just make everything just as good as it, and is part of the reason the game has gotten so out of hand lately.

 

 

Lacking power makes things different.  Yes it does.  But, you want balance and you claim it makes things different.  Clearly, you would have to agree that balance is not the only way to make things different.

 

Exactly what line are you talking about?  What is this line that you want to move warframes to such that it is less effort to move some undetermined number of warframes to this line instead of moving other warframes to Nova(and Frost and Rhino, and Vauban, and Trinity, and ... all the other warframes you feel are over powered which is about a third of them if not more)?  It's time for you to be more specific since you have brought up the issue of metrics.  Show us your metrics.  Show us what you've got.

 

EDIT: While we are on the subject of metrics, show me your metric for content trivialization, being that you think content trivialization is bad.

 

Before DE releases content, they can make sure it's inline with what's already been released.  They don't need to adjust released content, unless their intent was to do so.  By the way, you just argued against routine balance changes.  You just told DE to make up their minds and get it right, once and for all because, hold the line for Commander Shepard!  To do otherwise would be bad design philosophy according to you or whatever internet game design guru you subscribe to.

 

I also really do not get why you go back to fun every single post. FUN IS CRAPPY METRIC because it varies so much, and anything meets its criteria with the proper mindset. There are people who think nova is unfun, but that isn't the reason everybody posts, and you can't seem to get that through your head. I am posting this because nova is unbalanced, you have not been able to say why not, and every other person in this thread has been incapable as well. It does not matter if something is fun when you are discussing balance, things can still be fun with balance, and the fun does not come from the imbalance. Nova, can most certainly be a frame where you can jump around causing explosions, but she shouldn't be so imbalanced in doing so. I mean, hell, I already gave up on trying to explain to you why nova was imbalanced in the first place because you argued the merits of game balance when I did.

 

 

You can't see why people focus on fun in games?  Really?  Are you human?  What the hell am I arguing with?

 

I don't care if Nova is or is not balanced.  Nova is fun, for me.  She is one of the things that Warframe was lacking before she arrived and graced us all with her immaculate presence, but, I digress.  

 

One of the other glaring shortcomings of Warframe is the lack of missions and their variety.  And I hope that DE unleashes nigthmare mode from rng and makes a lot of new and varied FUN missions but NOT FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT FUN.  I hope they make see-saw and scale placeables just to mock "the balancers".  I hope they make missions that take place on a giant see-saw and other assorted mockeries of "balance".  I wouldn't stop laughing, even if the see-saw catapults my warframe into the sun.

 

Edited January 4, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Cwierz]

 

Lacking power makes things different.  Yes it does.  But, you want balance and you claim it makes things different.  Clearly, you would have to agree that balance is not the only way to make things different.

Balance doesn't make things different. Don't be a person who puts words into peoples mouths. The traits that those elements have make them different. And if the traits are too good, then they need to be balanced so that they are not imbalanced.

 

Exactly what line are you talking about?  What is this line that you want to move warframes to such that it is less effort to move some undetermined number of warframes to this line instead of moving other warframes to Nova(and Frost and Rhino, and Vauban, and Trinity, and ... all the other warframes you feel are over powered which is about a third of them if not more)?  It's time for you to be more specific since you have brought up the issue of metrics.  Show us your metrics.  Show us what you've got.

 

 I retract frost and nyx. I just re-learned that nyx got a limiter on chaos, so thats good. But, on the subject of frost... we wouldn't need him in the first place if the maps for defense were designed better. What on earth was DE thinking with the creation of the tiles, lets just take a huge, wide open area, stick an objective in it, and then add a globe of invincibility on a frame. That is just lazy design. I refuse to believe that I am the only person who sees this, and I consider frost to be more stupid than overpowered. 

However, vauban and trinity. These two frames are so dumb. Who thought unlimited invulnerability should be a game mechanic? Because whoever that was needs to be fired. Vauban, oh god... a statis field, and a ragdolling singularity? Really... Lets just give near limitless hard CC for the game just because. These two frames have some of the cheapest skills in existence, its so dumb.  Like this isn't even up for debate, immortality forever, and permanent and unlimited hard CC. So dumb it blows my mind. But then again, what can I really expect. There isn't even much that needs to be changed for these, just trinity doesn't get energy from her energy vampire for example.

 

EDIT: While we are on the subject of metrics, show me your metric for content trivialization, being that you think content trivialization is bad.

My metric for trivialization? Removes all challenge content was meant to have. I can guarantee you that if warframe had a no powers mode, it would feel like a completely different game, just because a lot of content would have challenge again. Whether or not that challenge is true challenge or fake difficulty is another discussion, but the point still remains.

 

 

Before DE releases content, they can make sure it's inline with what's already been released.  They don't need to adjust released content, unless their intent was to do so.  By the way, you just argued against routine balance changes.  You just told DE to make up their minds and get it right, once and for all because, hold the line for Commander Shepard!  To do otherwise would be bad design philosophy according to you or whatever internet game design guru you subscribe to.

It is fairly obvious why nova is like this. The design council had a huge hand in her design, and it was for all intensive purposes created by the community (to an extent). I don't really consider the DE to be fully at fault but they do have some fault with this issue. Not having balance in your game removes choice, and you would be shocked to know that buffing everything like you suggest is in fact a form of balance. However, I am have already stated my reasons why that is a bad choice. Making missions where certain things have niches is balance, just a very roundabout way that isn't the best for this game (I can go into elaborate detail as to why, but I am done responding to this for now). Game theory, and design is an established thing, whether you believe in it or not... it is the reason that games work. It is why crappy games are crappy, and why good games are good, even if you don't know it. Game theory and design didn't come before games, it was created from examining why games our successful, and in this game that boils down to a masked skinner box.

 

 

You can't see why people focus on fun in games?  Really?  Are you human?  What the hell am I arguing with?

I never said that. Your matter of fun is not relevant because fun and balance do not go together. They are not releated in any way shape or form, that doesn't mean I cannot see it/don't care about it. Your piece of content getting nerfed in an intelligent way should not impact your level of enjoyment, and I can see why you would think it would be considering DE's past way of nerfing.

 

I don't care if Nova is or is not balanced.  Nova is fun, for me.  She is one of the things that Warframe was lacking before she arrived and graced us all with her immaculate presence, but, I digress.  

 

One of the other glaring shortcomings of Warframe is the lack of missions and their variety.  And I hope that DE unleashes nigthmare mode from rng and makes a lot of new and varied FUN missions but NOT FOR YOU BECAUSE YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT FUN.  I hope they make see-saw and scale placeables just to mock "the balancers".  I hope they make missions that take place on a giant see-saw and other assorted mockeries of "balance".  I wouldn't stop laughing, even if the see-saw catapults my warframe into the sun.

Read the statement below, it addresses everything that I haven't specifically addressed in the body so far.

 

 

Imbalance is not the source of your fun. An intelligent nerf should not affect your level of enjoyment. It can be balanced, and fun at the same time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I left a huge space just to make sure that jumped out at you. 

Edit: replies in body of quote.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Cwierz

[-CM-Syein]

Apparently let me just remind everybody what is their definition of imbalance and balance is,  and my definition, and people's definition. 

Someone who op at everything, balance or imbalance

Someone who op at one thing but terribly weak in the other, balance or imbalance

Someone who suck at everything__

Someone who is the same as every other person, same rate of survival, same defensive ability, same damage.

Someone who is good at defense, the other good at survival, and another good at damage