Weapon Categorization Consistency + Some Launcher Weapon Restructuring

[Azamagon]

THE LACK OF WEAPON CATEGORIZATION CONSISTENCY AND HOW TO FIX IT:

As you might know by now, when it comes to categorization of weapons there is a SEVERE lack of consistency. Let me show some examples:

 

* Rifle Amp - Here the name "Rifle" counts in Rifles, Snipers, Bows and Launchers, but not Shotguns.

* Rifle Mods - Let's take any basic Rifle mod, such as Ammo Drum. You see how it states how it is for Rifles? Well, in this case Rifle once again means Rifles, Snipers, Bows and Launchers, but not Shotguns.

* Rifleman - The little "sidequest" you can get which grants you 500xp for killing 30 enemies with your "Rifle"... Guess what? Now this counts for Rifles, Snipers, Bows, Launchers AND Shotguns!

* Rifle Ammo Mutator - Now this one makes everything confusing. What does it say the Rifle Ammo mutator is for? It says it is for ASSAULT RIFLES! Now, what does that count as then? Well, it works for Rifles... and Launchers!

 

... Who is the person responsible for all this randomness? Come on, the inconsistency of categorization in this game is one of the worst one I've come across! So, let's try and sort this out and make everything more consistent and intuitive. But before doing so, let's define what is what:

 

* Rifle - The basic rifles that utilize Rifle ammo such as Braton, Latron, Gorgon, Dera, Ignis etc

* Sniper - Simple, all the sniper rifles

* Bows - Once again simple, all the bows

* Shotguns - And again simple, all the shotguns

* Launchers - This is all the special "launcher" type weapons, currently only consisting of the Ogris, Torid and Miter

 

So with that said, let's see what you should be doing:

 

MOD CLARITY:

* When a mod is useable for more than one category of weapons, state so! For example, let's use Ammo Drum. Instead of saying "Rifle" in weapons that can use it, write "Rifle/Sniper/Bow" (I'm not adding Launchers here, due to a suggestion further down for them)

* Now, all the specific mods such as Thunderbolt, Arrow Mutator, Sniper Ammo Mutator etc make more sense in just stating their specific weapon types (Such as Thunderbolt saying it's for Bows). This also helps the Rifle Ammo Mutator, because now it can simply say that it is for "Rifles", and doesn't need to say the random "Assault Rifle" anymore! Everything would be FAAAAR more clear doing this!

 

WEAPON CLARITY:

Now this helps all the mods, but we have one more problem: The actual WEAPONS! In the arsenal it now states all numerical values such as damage etc. Why not expand on this to really clarify everything about weapons? What I mean is, let's also add info such as:

* Weapontype - General weapon type (Such as: Automatic Shotgun, Sniper Rifle, Heavy Sword etc)

* Slottype - States if the weapon is equipped in the Primary, Secondary or Melee slot

* Modtype - States what mods a weapon uses (Rifle/Shotgun/Sniper/Bow / Pistol / Melee)

* Ammotype - States the ammotype the weapon uses (Rifle/Shotgun/Sniper / Pistol)

Now, add these things to the infotext when you hover over a weapon (both in general and when in the foundry). Add it to the weapon descriptions in the dojo (Those are just hilariously lacking)! DE, we want information, information and more information! Do not hold back on it! And DO NOT forget to be consistent with it!

*bitterness on*

... Although considering something as simple as the neurode/neural sensor confusion you guys have going on, I don't really have much hope that you guys will fix these above things :(

*bitterness off*

Oh well, let's continue!

 

LAUNCHER WEAPONS RESTRUCTURING:

Now, about Launchers, you currently have only three of them, Ogris, Torid and Miter. These weapons are just all over the place. Miter uses Sniper Ammo but also the Rifle Ammo mutator, while the Ogris and Torid uses "Rifle" stuff. Could you say random and inconsistent? The Miter is more or less the least powerful of these three, yet it has the smallest type of ammopool? Why not do something interesting with these weapons (which would also rebalance them more):

* First of all, make the Launchers use SHOTGUN mods and SHOTGUN ammo! This gives Ogris and Torid far less ammo to use (good for balance) while it gives the Miter a bit more ammo to use (good for balance)

* This also makes the Launcher weapons all go into ONE consistent category (Good for future additions of Launcher weapons)

* Considering the statements further above about how mods that can be used for several types of weapons should state so, then all Shotgun mods should now say that they are for "Shotgun/Launcher". Consistency ya know?

* As it wouldn't maybe make too much sense that Launchers use normal shotgun shells as ammo, maybe the Shotgun ammo type can be renamed? I have several ideas, but i dunno which one to pick. Some ideas could be Heavy / Wild / Brutal / Volatile ammo. You guys got any further ideas or thoughts on this?

* Also consider that Shotgun mods is a whole category of mods currently ONLY used for a handful of weapons, the shotguns. Add Launchers to the list of weapons using these mods and it would be a more balanced set of mods when compared to the "Rifle/Sniper/Bows" mods (which is currently far more widely used)

* Now why not change the Launchers into a reworked & renamed "Sniper" category instead? Well, doing so would cause them to use the Rifle/Bow/Sniper mods, and that defeats the purpose of making the Shotgun mods used for more types of weapons.

 

I mean think about all this, these weapons (Shotguns and Launchers) fit to be in the same-ish categories! All these weapon types are kinda random and/or AoE-y in their fighting styles: Shotguns have spread which is quite random in pattern and can hit multiple targets (aoe), Torid has a heavily arcing and very slow projectile + an aoe effect for the gas, Ogris has a somewhat slowmoving rocket and an aoe effect with its explosion, and lastly the Miter which also has somewhat slowmoving projectiles and which randomly does ricocheting bounces (giving aoe randomness)

 

Thoughts and opinions on this? :)

Edited November 3, 2013 by Azamagon

[Morgax]

Rifle AMP doesn't affect shotguns, just a small fix here.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Morgax

[Azamagon]

Rifle AMP doesn't affect shotguns, just a small fix here.

Alright, I'll edit that :)

[WarOverlord]

Sounds good.

[CubedOobleck]

Yeah I hate inconsistencies too. I'd reorganize in a slightly different way, but any kind of logic is welcome compared to what we have now.

 

 

For the general mods I'd rename "rifle" with "primary" and expand the current rifle mods to the shotguns, effectively eliminating all the shotgun mods that have a direct rifle counterpart. Rifle amp too, should just be renamed to primary and extend it's influence to shotguns.

I'd also rename the pistol mods to secondary mods since clearly they work on a large variety of weapons too

Then the mods that only work on some weapons can have more specific branding like rifle, shotgun, sniper, launcher, ect.

 

Ammo categories are mostly fine imo, bows can stay with the snipers since they are practically used in the same way. For Torid and Ogris I think the shotgun ammo is still too much... I'd make them use the sniper ammo too. I know that leaves very few weapons using the shotgun ammo, but that's less important than balance, plus we know of at least 2 more shotguns coming in the near future. Then I'd rename the sniper ammo to heavy ammo or something like that for consistency.

 

Another inconsistency that bother's me a lot is the fact that the primary shotguns are the only weapons in the game that suffer from damage falloff, it doesn't make sense whatsoever and there are many other ways they could have made shotguns less effective at long/medium range, meh.

Or every bullet and bolt weapon should have some damage falloff too, but that would be kinda lame :/

Edited November 3, 2013 by CubedOobleck

[MetalGerbil]

would be nice if it was organized a bit.

things have been added to the game that brake the old structure, which did not include bows or launchers back in the day.

less to do with incompetence and more with just new types of weps being added over time.

im sure they will get to it eventually.

some things you list are bugs, while others are difficult to change without making an entire new subsystem that would break the balance of the weps (launchers are balanced around rifle mods, not shotgun mods, this would break more than fix).

im sure its something they will address.

[CubedOobleck]

(launchers are balanced around rifle mods, not shotgun mods, this would break more than fix).

Well, if torid and ogris are balanced around rifle mods, they did a really bad job!

With that kind of AoE and damage per hit they seem balanced to have much less ammo than snipers.

Edited November 3, 2013 by CubedOobleck

[ReiganCross]

MOD CLARITY:

* When a mod is useable for more than one category of weapons, state so!

 

Yeah, i found your problem, right here...

 

You see, what you're expecting from DE is something that you can reasonably expect from any other company making any other game. It's a completely reasonable request that should, by all means, not even be requested at all.

 

But, y'see, DE is not so big on this "Explaining" and "Clarifying" stuff... Me personally think that they're being purposefully vague about a S#&$load of stuff. The Sanctuary Mod (for sentinels), for example, we still don't know what leveling that bastard do, neither do we know what Regen does. Then there's weapon description does not describe the weapon at all. Hell, only recently did they add descriptors to what leveling POWERS do to them. So DE is not exactly on the smart side on that describing and relaying information to it's playerbase bit. They STILL haven't set the Sentinel in the UI, and Sentinels have been about in 3 Updates so far... And i STILL can't know his energy, health of shields!

 

Most of that stuff you're just expected to go with your gut (Or check wiki for awnsers made by people much more devoted to explaining Warframe then DE is). Does Pressure Points increase your base attack or your charge attacks? Are they 2 different types of damage at all? What about Elemental Mods, what is that percentage of damabe based on, base or charge attack? Does reach works to increase the range i can throw my Glaive? What about Power Throw, does it go trough enemies with Puncture or does it bounces off them like it's suposedly says in the weapon description? Does Speed Trigger makes me charge attacks faster? What about Recoil, can a weapon with no Recoil whatsoever suddently get some sort of Recoil because the Nightmare mod is increasing it? Does attack speed affect the animation speed of charged attacks? Does Strech makes me Sword Dash further or does it increase the area of effect of the skill as i'm traversing the same distance? Does the same effect on different mods stack, as in Nightmare Mod + Corrupted Mod + Regular Mod?

 

And you know what doesn't help us pinpoint all those awnsers? The rules keep changing all the damn time! One update the Power Throw is able to mow down an army of infested up to 6m after the initial target. On the next update, the SAME Power Throw doesn't do jack! And then one more update comes along and Power Throw suddently only punctures certain objects and is bounces off another ones, like Grineer Shields.

 

So you want to bet that even if we lay down some ground rules now to update with the new weapons that we got, we'll need to do so again further down the line when even MORE wacky weapon types comes along? Like Melees, right now you can have one or two melee build for a multitude of melee weaponry, but another category is already starting to grow, the "Glaive" category (That again, to further complicate clarification, also affects Kestrel, so it's no longer supposed to be called "Glaive" mods.) What about when they finally launch the Whip and they decide that the Whip will also get it's own kind of mod... Then they launch another kind of Laser Whip or whatever and choose to say that this new weapon is in the same category as the Whip they launched before. It's an eternal ball of messing up after messing further up! Hell, if you want to stay on the topic of primary weaponry, maybe they decide that further down the path we'll get some sort of Charged Beam Cannon, that you must remain stationary to charge because it fires too strong or whatever. Then this cannon gets its own special Mods. Then comes along a Charged Beam Cannon of Fire that works exactly as the first! And then they are it's own category, all in the same thing!

 

This mess goes on forever. And i'm not exactly sure there IS a solution.

[MetalGerbil]

Well, if torid and ogris are balanced around rifle mods, they did a really bad job!

With that kind of AoE and damage per hit they seem balanced to have much less ammo than snipers.

you can kill yourself with them. you end up having to pick your shots.

altho thats hardly what i meant. raw damage mods for shotguns (point blank) does less damage than serration, and fire rate mods has higher % than rifle.

on boar it would brake it completely as you MIGHT get similar DPS but it would destroy its already terrible ammo efficiency.

thats just one example, if you actually look at the numbers you will see that the two mod types, while both are for primary weapons, are extremely different and would greatly affect how those weapons behave and how their stats are balanced.

"just put shotgun mods on them" is short sighted and game breaking, and at best it would require a rework of those weapons. and would still shift how players end up dealing with them and what stats they prioritize.

[Azamagon]

Yeah I hate inconsistencies too. I'd reorganize in a slightly different way, but any kind of logic is welcome compared to what we have now.

 

 

For the general mods I'd rename "rifle" with "primary" and expand the current rifle mods to the shotguns, effectively eliminating all the shotgun mods that have a direct rifle counterpart. Rifle amp too, should just be renamed to primary and extend it's influence to shotguns.

I'd also rename the pistol mods to secondary mods since clearly they work on a large variety of weapons too

Then the mods that only work on some weapons can have more specific branding like rifle, shotgun, sniper, launcher, ect.

 

Ammo categories are mostly fine imo, bows can stay with the snipers since they are practically used in the same way. For Torid and Ogris I think the shotgun ammo is still too much... I'd make them use the sniper ammo too. I know that leaves very few weapons using the shotgun ammo, but that's less important than balance, plus we know of at least 2 more shotguns coming in the near future. Then I'd rename the sniper ammo to heavy ammo or something like that for consistency.

 

Another inconsistency that bother's me a lot is the fact that the primary shotguns are the only weapons in the game that suffer from damage falloff, it doesn't make sense whatsoever and there are many other ways they could have made shotguns less effective at long/medium range, meh.

Or every bullet and bolt weapon should have some damage falloff too, but that would be kinda lame :/

I agreed, any form of reorganization is good. I'd like your restructuring too actually :)

Only problem I see with yours is that it requires far more work for DE to do, compared to my ideas (not bashing you, just saying):

* Mine requires clearer writing on mods, and shifting all Launchers into using Shotgun stuff

* Yours requires a huge revamp of all mods and weapons, as well as scrapping all Shotgun mods (and more).

So, as much as I'd like your suggestion (because it is good and highly organized), I think it is far less likely to be done that way. I also dunno if DE would like the weapons to be THAT streamlined, but who knows :)

 

would be nice if it was organized a bit.

things have been added to the game that brake the old structure, which did not include bows or launchers back in the day.

less to do with incompetence and more with just new types of weps being added over time.

im sure they will get to it eventually.

some things you list are bugs, while others are difficult to change without making an entire new subsystem that would break the balance of the weps (launchers are balanced around rifle mods, not shotgun mods, this would break more than fix).

im sure its something they will address.

Good point about the new additions breaking the old structure etc.

But if you are gonna do additions (as they have done now), you have to bring in "the bigger picture" when you do so, and thus sort out the inconsistencies that might come with the new additions. So to me, it seems like they were a little aimless with their additions, and now need to sort out what they have. And, to be realistic, I think all these unclarities and inconsistencies are things that unfortunately don't bother them, as I haven't exactly gotten the picture of them being "perfectionistic" people (At least not as much as I consider myself to be). Hence my thread :)

 

 

-snip-

Hehe, as much as I like to complain myself, hold back your horses a tiny bit ;)

But, in essence, you are right though, this IS a big issue. Information should never be so unclear, but i guess that is something you get when you are working a bit aimlessly. Actually, these kind of issues is something I've been seeing so much of lately (not just with videogames either, sadly): People being ovely sloppy, settling with mediocrity and trying just to milk their products out of greed, rather than trying to polish up their creations so people really WANT to support and play the games! It's sad really :/

 

As much as I like Warframe, it really saddens me that they don't seem to care about a multitude of things:

* Lack of balance (Goes for EVERYTHING, weapons, warframes, enemies etc)

* In particular a lack of balance within the melee- and stamina-mechanics, something I have tried to fix quite a bit here - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/89931-melee-tweaks/

* The energy system needing some finetuning. I think I have done a good job with it here - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/109380-energy-system-tweaks-ninja-signs/

* Modding needing a big change of tweaks, so even if there are "useless" mods, they can still be equipped without the loss of important modspace, I have tried to fix that as much as possible here - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/103745-warframe-abilityslots-modslots-modpoints-and-auras/

 

So, seeing that you actually CAN fix these core issues, why aren't DE putting the same effort into fixing these core issues, and instead just "bandaid"-fix it with crappy mods? Simple: It is faster and easier to do, however sloppily made it is.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Azamagon