Knockdown Recovery And (Relatively) Useless Warframe Mods

[Relkin]

That step is significant.

 

 

You are supposed to be avoiding those knockdowns to keep the fluid combat going.

 

Oh, and shoot the cameras.

So by avoid you mean just don't ever use melee?  Yeah...ok got it.  Terrible solution LOL

[Mak_Gohae]

So by avoid you mean just don't ever use melee?  Yeah...ok got it.  Terrible solution LOL

 

I dont know what situation you are speaking about since you never elaborated so i dont know exactly where you got the idea i replied by saying never to use melee.

[Psychus]

I dont know what situation you are speaking about since you never elaborated so i dont know exactly where you got the idea i replied by saying never to use melee.

There are three ways of avoiding getting knocked on your &#!. One, you use a warframe that has invul to knockdown (rhino) Two, you use a frame that doesn't alert enemies via stealth (Ash and Loki, which I know you use a lot, gohae) And finally avoid melee combat altogether. So that leaves us with abouuuut 14 warframes that have to avoid melee combat because of this absurdly built mechanic. And when you look at Excalibur, does he not scream "I WANNA CUT S#&$ UP"? He can't, because past level 20, when all sorts of heavy enemies start getting introduced he can no longer melee effectively.

[Relkin]

I dont know what situation you are speaking about since you never elaborated so i dont know exactly where you got the idea i replied by saying never to use melee.

Unless you are invisible and have a team that knows not to come near when your dicing up heavies OR are using cheesy iron skin you're not allowed to really melee because of auto unavoidable stunlocks, instagib poison, disrupters, ect.  

 

Corpus are literally the only exception because you can jump strike to avoid stompy moas. 

[Nenjin]

 

 

You are supposed to be avoiding those knockdowns to keep the fluid combat going.

 

 

 

Bro, do you even 20 minute survival?

 

Saying "Just don't get hit" is fine and all, until you get Shields or Ancients or Heavies spawning behind you where you can't even see them, and they run up and smash your &#! to the ground. Or they smash you to the ground, and their friend runs up and smashes you again while you're in the middle of the standing animation. I've been pushed across an entire room by a combination of Shields and Heavies before. It's irritating as hell.

 

I appreciate your conservative "I hate change" position, but I think you're being obstinate. There comes a point where avoiding knockdown becomes impossible, and players are robbed of the ability to do anything proactive about it.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Nenjin

[Mak_Gohae]

There are three ways of avoiding getting knocked on your &#!. One, you use a warframe that has invul to knockdown (rhino) Two, you use a frame that doesn't alert enemies via stealth (Ash and Loki, which I know you use a lot, gohae) And finally avoid melee combat altogether. So that leaves us with abouuuut 14 warframes that have to avoid melee combat because of this absurdly built mechanic. And when you look at Excalibur, does he not scream "I WANNA CUT S#&$ UP"? He can't, because past level 20, when all sorts of heavy enemies start getting introduced he can no longer melee effectively.

 

What knockdowns are you specifically talking about?

With Stomp MOAs you can jump over their shockwave and melee them.

If you have a heavy weapons the easiest way to stop rollers is to simply press melee attacks because they can stagger you out of the animation.

 

You cant throw a blanket statement because these situations are not all exactly same.

 

 

Unless you are invisible and have a team that knows not to come near when your dicing up heavies OR are using cheesy iron skin you're not allowed to really melee because of auto unavoidable stunlocks, instagib poison, disrupters, ect.  

 

Corpus are literally the only exception because you can jump strike to avoid stompy moas. 

 

 

After avoiding the Radial Blast, which you can trick them into use it, you can melee them without any problem. Hek, it's better to melee ancients, not toxics, because it staggers them and they cant do anything.

 

Bro, do you even 20 minute survival?

 

Saying "Just don't get hit" is fine and all, until you get Shields or Ancients or Heavies spawning behind you where you can't even see them, and they run up and smash your &#! to the ground. Or they smash you to the ground, and their friend runs up and smashes you again while you're in the middle of the standing animation. I've been pushed across an entire room by a combination of Shields and Heavies before. It's irritating as hell.

 

I appreciate your conservative "I hate change" position, but I think you're being obstinate. There comes a point where avoiding knockdown becomes impossible, and players are robbed of the ability to do anything proactive about it.

 

Of course in Survival mode when half of the troops are heavies certain tactics have to be applied while other cannot.

But i dont think that anyone would suggest a complete change in the game based on only one specific mission type.

[Psychus]

all that nonsense

Moas are NOT heavies. I specifically said HEAVIES that cause knockdown. These include any sort of ancient, and grineer heavy units (Napalm, Gunner, Rocket) Rollers are another story on their own. And yes. melee MAY stagger an ancient, but can you get in another melee before he's unstunned? Before ANOTHER ancient comes up and slaps you down? I get the feeling that you're trying to tell us that knockdowns and melee combat are fine as is. This isn't a problem specifically tied to survival. The extermination events had this problem. A lot of defense missions have this problem. In fact, the only place this doesn't affect melee combat is in places where the spawn rate of enemies is so absurdly low you can toy with an enemy for 20 minutes before another shows up.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Psychus

[Nenjin]

It's not just Survival. It's any mission with knockdown troops where the enemiy density combines with a small enough space. You don't notice it in lower missions because everyone is bottom feeding with their 30 frames and weapons, and stuff doesn't live long enough to pose a threat.

 

And, for me, bottomline: If this is a game about frickin' space ninjas, who can wall run, back flip and jump kick 60 meters......why do we get up like an arthritic old man UNLESS we've farmed for this one ultra-specific mod? Not having any sort of innate knock down recover is to me about as silly as saying blocking with your weapon should only be possible with a mod.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Nenjin

[Mak_Gohae]

Moas are NOT heavies. I specifically said HEAVIES that cause knockdown. These include any sort of ancient, and grineer heavy units (Napalm, Gunner, Rocket) Rollers are another story on their own. And yes. melee MAY stagger an ancient, but can you get in another melee before he's unstunned? Before ANOTHER ancient comes up and slaps you down? I get the feeling that you're trying to tell us that knockdowns and melee combat are fine as is. This isn't a problem specifically tied to survival. The extermination events had this problem. A lot of defense missions have this problem. In fact, the only place this doesn't affect melee combat is in places where the spawn rate of enemies is so absurdly low you can toy with an enemy for 20 minutes before another shows up.

 

 

It's not just Survival. It's any mission with knockdown troops where the enemiy density combines with a small enough space. You don't notice it in lower missions because everyone is bottom feeding with their 30 frames and weapons, and stuff doesn't live long enough to pose a threat.

 

And, for me, bottomline: If this is a game about frickin' space ninjas, who can wall run, back flip and jump kick 60 meters......why do we get up like an arthritic old man UNLESS we've farmed for this one ultra-specific mod? Not having any sort of innate knock down recover is to me about as silly as saying blocking with your weapon should only be possible with a mod.

 

So wait... what is the discussion here?

You dont want to be knocked down at all?

There all sorts of different ways to get around this stuff but you apparently dont want to perform any of them you want to get through your way and if that way doesnt exist then it must be included because you dont want to use anything else?

[Nenjin]

You dont want to be knocked down at all?

 

Are you going to read, or just put words in people's mouths?

 

 

 

There all sorts of different ways to get around this stuff...

 

Such as? A mod and, to quote you, "don't get hit." What other different ways are you talking about?

 

 

 

but apparently I'll just ad hominem because I've got no leg to stand on.

 

Quite.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Nenjin

[DoomHarbinger]

you can be like me and my clan and make different build using those mods, it doesn't have to always be Focus,Flow, Redirection..etc.. try something new

[ReiganCross]

So in the end my point stands.

 

They knock us over all the time, either it be by getting near a heavy grineer that OFFCURSE will hit you even if you just killed him coming out of Stealth. That or the Ancient Arm Targeting that basically says "Get near me and get knocked on your &#!".

 

We also get the Corpus and those wierd Shockwave, but by now people have learned to dodge those. And despite the camera being easy to shoot and you're basically steamroling them, get any team with more then 3 players and probably ONE of them will end up standing in the line of sight of a Turret with no real reason to shoot it. Good luck hitting those cameras out of reach, because he didn't even noticed he's being spotted! (And really? A Laser door that knocks you back? What is this, an electric fence?)

 

This just proves that they're saying "Keep dynamic and fluid combat" but they accept ALL of that acumulated time that you get juggled around by Infested that could be otherwise spent behind a trench if they ever decided to go with a cover system. Cover system that would, by the way, greatly improve stealth play, since stealth IS about waiting behind cover for an opening to sneak trough. People already do this anyway, you'd just be adding the mechanic where i can lean to the wall to do this easier.

 

So they're not going against a cover system for dynamic combat or because its against the Warframe vision. They're going against it because cover sucked in Dark Sector very hard.

[Mak_Gohae]

Are you going to read, or just put words in people's mouths?

 

 

This is what you wrote.

It's not just Survival. It's any mission with knockdown troops where the enemiy density combines with a small enough space.

 

Which each post you add another condition where knockdown sucks so....i just straight up asked to avoid several posts of you adding conditions.

 

 

Such as? A mod and, to quote you, "don't get hit." What other different ways are you talking about?

 

What situations are you talking about?

If it's survival i think everyone should know by this time that you should equip yourself to hit as many enemies as possible.

 

Just react to what the enemy is doing instead of just pushing forward and then being surprised when you put yourself in a bad situation.

[honeybadger]

Personally, DE should do what every other 3rd person action fighting game does.

 

And that's build the knock down recovery into the player's base ability. It's simple. Tap sprint after being knocked down, and you roll to your feet.

 

That's one of the more clever ideas I've seen round these parts.  Gives control to players and allows a bit more room in the game for knockdown units and rewards the player for paying attention.  Maybe to fully balance it you put a "missed" window somewhere in the fall animation.  If you try to handspring and nail the timing, you are rewarded with lower knockdown duration.  If you try and miss, you are punished with longer than average duration.  If you dont do anything, its the normal knockdown duration.

 

That naturally opens the door to mods that modify these timings or occasionally handsprings for you or corrupted mods that trade off these timings!

 

Love it.

[ROSING]

So have we all established that this is something important? Except for mak, but really, they should have this animation already, it would be a simple thing to just add in the new mechanic with a tap of the space bar.

[SHADOWEDzed]

 

 

Unfortunately handspring will break the effect from sure footed + fortitude, so yes handspring is waste

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

Unfortunately handspring will break the effect from sure footed + fortitude, so yes handspring is waste

 

How does it break the knockdown resist effect?

[Relkin]

you can be like me and my clan and make different build using those mods, it doesn't have to always be Focus,Flow, Redirection..etc.. try something new

I think there are a good number of us that do but the issue is really two things.

 

Useless mods like warm coat which literally serve zero purpose.

Mods that SHOULD BE game mechanics NOT mods which passively perform actions removing the player from the playing experience (blocking mods, sure footed) 

 

What knockdowns are you specifically talking about?

With Stomp MOAs you can jump over their shockwave and melee them.

If you have a heavy weapons the easiest way to stop rollers is to simply press melee attacks because they can stagger you out of the animation.

 

You cant throw a blanket statement because these situations are not all exactly same.

 

 

 

 

After avoiding the Radial Blast, which you can trick them into use it, you can melee them without any problem. Hek, it's better to melee ancients, not toxics, because it staggers them and they cant do anything.

 

 

Of course in Survival mode when half of the troops are heavies certain tactics have to be applied while other cannot.

But i dont think that anyone would suggest a complete change in the game based on only one specific mission type.

 

Trick them?  Dude you can zorencopter past them and be a million miles away when they do their animation and you still get knocked down idk wtf you think you are talking about but it's not this game.  The issue here is that melee is not viable due to poor enemy design and a lack of counter mechanics on the player side.  Removing player involvement is bad - and nobody is asking for zero knockdowns we're asking for a skill based mechanic to break the KD animation and turn it into a dodge.  NOT a lazy passive player involvement removing mod that has zero skill associated with it effectively making it something that doesn't really contribute to gameplay at all but instead bandaids something which is poorly designed. 

 

This isn't hard to understand and you seem to be the ONLY person who can't comprehend this, try and think about it before posting.  This game isn't perfect dude, we're trying to help improve it.  Picking fights with everybody who wants change in a game that is in development is the opposite of what DE wants and is counterproductive to this games future.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Relkin

[ROSING]

How does it break the knockdown resist effect?

Basically it's like puncture, because why use that when you already have shred? There's no point in putting handspring in when fortitude is there. It doesn't break it, it just makes it useless.

 

 

Unfortunately handspring will break the effect from sure footed + fortitude, so yes handspring is waste

Also this is a very good example of what I'm talking about. I'd like to have all of those mods because they are handy, but I do want to keep my warframe abilities too. I don't think we should have to make such sacrifices to have these useful mods.

Edited November 9, 2013 by ROSING

[Nenjin]

To cross game genres a moment, consider something like Marvel Superheroes (Marvel vs. Capcom, Street Fighter something). They all have roll-recovery mechanics, but it's not guranteed to happen. Sometimes, you miss the (reasonably narrow) timing mark. Sometimes you're just too shell shocked to remember to do it in the first place. Being able to roll out of the knockdown animation doesn't automatically invalidate knockdown. It just allows the player the chance (skill allowing) to repostion themselves after something bad has happened, and maybe shave a second off the amount of time they're a sitting duck. It still won't help in instances where you've cluster-slammed into a corner full of Toxic cloud....but at least it might give you a chance to use an ability before you're murdelized. Being able to roll away from the infested melee after being knocked down would be a huge help, instead of it being you getting mauled for 1.5 seconds. At level 70+, hell even 60, you simply can't get knocked down when the infested are swarming. Caster frames that aren't maxed out on shields and life get chewed up in the very small window they're locked out of doing anything at that level.

[Paradoxbomb]

First off, I'd like to see Abilities separated from the main mod slots, because requiring us to sacrifice a core feature of the Warframe just to have room for significantly less useful or unique mods just feels like a poor design choice.

 

As for all the useless mods like downed-state, blocking, elemental resistance, etc, I believe they should get the dual mod treatment, and be combined with the more necessary mods as variants/tradeoffs. For example, Flame Repellant, on it's own it's not nearly worth it, both because the 12% max is pitiful and you might as well have just equipped Redirection for 440% more shields. But if you buff the damage reduction and release a variant of Redirection with it included, you get:

 

Incendiary Redirection:

> 330% shield capacity

> 77% fire resistance

 

In exchange for an extra bit of shields, you can get a substantial fire resistance boost on top of a reasonable shield capacity, instead of the current situation where it's a drastic gap between actually useful mod or complete garbage. Granted I'm not sure exactly how it would work, whether standard redirection and Incendiary Redirection would be entirely separate mods, or possibly some system where you could fuse mods to create this one, but I just wanted to throw out the general idea. Other combined mods to replace existing ones could include:

 

Provoked+Undying will--> Unkillable (rank 3)

> +8% damage during bleedout (max 32%)

> +11% bleedout time (max 44%)

> 12% chance to restore 8% bleedout health upon killing an enemy (48%/32% max)

 

Intruder+Enemy sense--> Interloper (rank 5)

> +1 seconds to hacking (max +6)

> 5% chance to restore team health and energy after hacking (max +30%)

> +5 enemy radar (max +30)

> reduced enemy awareness when standing still (enemies will have to get closer to be able to notice you)

Edited November 9, 2013 by Paradoxbomb

[Unknown924]

How many third person shooters have this is the real question.

You are classifying Warframe under fighter because you get to swing a melee weapon once in a while but most of the enemies in this game are ranged enemies. This game is way more a shooter than anything else.

Saints Row 4 has good knockdown recovery.  In fact I keep wishing Warframe had a similar revoery system - press a key while being thrown around and you recover at the cost of stamina.  It would provide a very good use for stamina.

[Mak_Gohae]

Trick them?  Dude you can zorencopter past them and be a million miles away when they do their animation and you still get knocked down idk wtf you think you are talking about but it's not this game. 

 

??? Why would you try to evade an AOE attack by going through it? Get into range then quickly back away in the same direction.

 

The issue here is that melee is not viable due to poor enemy design and a lack of counter mechanics on the player side.  Removing player involvement is bad - and nobody is asking for zero knockdowns we're asking for a skill based mechanic to break the KD animation and turn it into a dodge.  NOT a lazy passive player involvement removing mod that has zero skill associated with it effectively making it something that doesn't really contribute to gameplay at all but instead bandaids something which is poorly designed.

 

Run and gun game, bud.

Treat this game like top-down shooters.

You are supposed to be actively evading damage.

 

This isn't hard to understand and you seem to be the ONLY person who can't comprehend this, try and think about it before posting.  This game isn't perfect dude, we're trying to help improve it.  Picking fights with everybody who wants change in a game that is in development is the opposite of what DE wants and is counterproductive to this games future.

 

I understand it fine, what you dont understand is the mod card system.

If you dont want to change any of the cards you currently use and call anything but those cards useless then there is no point in mod card system.

You are not going to make the a game better product by ignoring a whole system.

At this point they might as well get rid of the whole mod system because people like you dont use it at all.

You just pick the same cards and rank them up and dont do anything else.

You have the freedom to do all sorts of things with the mod system and you dont, you do the opposite and shackle yourself to a few cards then ask for things to be change while not affecting those cards you never want to switch from.

 

 

Basically it's like puncture, because why use that when you already have shred? There's no point in putting handspring in when fortitude is there. It doesn't break it, it just makes it useless.

 

Knockdown resistance is not the same as knockdown recovery.

Resistance means a chance at not being knockdown.

Recovery means after being knockdown how fast you get back up.

[Relkin]

??? Why would you try to evade an AOE attack by going through it? Get into range then quickly back away in the same direction.

 

 

 

 

Run and gun game, bud.

Treat this game like top-down shooters.

You are supposed to be actively evading damage.

 

 

 

I understand it fine, what you dont understand is the mod card system.

If you dont want to change any of the cards you currently use and call anything but those cards useless then there is no point in mod card system.

You are not going to make the a game better product by ignoring a whole system.

At this point they might as well get rid of the whole mod system because people like you dont use it at all.

You just pick the same cards and rank them up and dont do anything else.

You have the freedom to do all sorts of things with the mod system and you dont, you do the opposite and shackle yourself to a few cards then ask for things to be change while not affecting those cards you never want to switch from.

 

 

 

Knockdown resistance is not the same as knockdown recovery.

Resistance means a chance at not being knockdown.

Recovery means after being knockdown how fast you get back up.

Herp derp it's not about the card system, it's about poor game mechanics which remove player involvement and interaction.  But yes, just gloss over all of that and bring up something completely irrelevant.   Also people like me?  Dude, you don't even know what my loadouts look like so pull back on that presumptuous BS. 

 

 

Run and gun game?  Then why is there even melee?  Why does DE put so many melee weapons out?  Maybe we want melee to be a part of the game :O helping shape the games future through feedback *epic gasp*  LOL evade damage when almost everything is hitscan with perfect aim?  Yeah...ok guy....you clearly are not playing warframe.  Oh and good luck with your creep into and out of range dodge BS when there are heavies and shield guys everywhere lol do you even play this game?

 

This is like talking a tea party member, I'm done with you.  

Edited November 10, 2013 by Relkin