Armor Mods Or Health Mods.

[Zamin]

which one is better?

tried calculation

revised due to Health mod effect error

Assume

a: Initial Health

b: Initial Armor

x: Number of Health Mod installed

y: Number of Armor Mod installed

Health Mod effect : 74 (rank30)

Armor Mod effect : 69% (rank30)

Health : a+74*x

Damage Reduction : b*(1+0.69*y)/(100+b*(1+0.69*y))

Effective Health : (a+74*x)*(100+b*(1+0.69*y))/100

next mod

health mod

effective health : (a+74*(x+1))*(100+b*(1+0.69*y))/100

effective health increase : 74 + 37/50*b + 2553/5000 *b*y

armor mod

effective health : (a+74*x)*(100+b*(1+0.69*(y+1)))/100

effective health increase : 69/10000*a*b+2553/5000 *b*x

same effectiveness

with 3 kind of b

Rhino, Frost : 150

x=y + (2.42 - a/74)

Loki, Mag, ASh, Excalibur : 50

x =y + (4.35 - a/74)

Volt, Trinity, Nyx, Ember : 10

x =y + (15.94 - a/74)

translate this formula...

draw one example, first formula with a=100

x=y + 1.07

y

^

|--------------------/+++++++

|-------------------/+++++++

|------------------/++++++++

|-----------------/++++++++

|----------------/+++++++++

|---------------/++++++++++

|--------------/++++++++++

|-------------/+++++++++++

|------------/+++++++++++

+----------/--------------------> x

(0,0) 1.07

start at (0,0) - no armor mod, no health mod

adding x , 1 means Health mod

adding y , 1 means Armor mod

when point is "-" , it means HEALTH mod is more effective for next mod

when point is "+" , it means ARMOR mod is more effective for next mod

this means next armor mod, health mod is effective

only problem is when, which one first

it is due to number [ Int(n - Inittial Health/74)+1 ]

Rhino, Frost : n = 2.42

Loki, Mag, ASh, Excalibur : n = 4.35

Volt, Trinity, Nyx, Ember : n = 15.94

initial health : Health amount with no Health mod

until that numbers of Health mods and next Armor and next Health and next Armor....

ex1> Loki with Initial Health 100 ( 1 Health node of 25 )

initial value is 4 ( int(4.35-100/74 )+1=4 )

this means

Health, Health, Health, Health, Armor, Health, Armor, Health,...

sequence

ex2 > Frost with Initial Health 200

initial value is 0 ( int(2.42-200/74 )+1=0 )

this means

Armor, Health, Armor, Health, Armor, Health, ,...

sequence

conclusion : usually Armor mods have meaning only to Heavy Warframe such as Rhino and Frost

Edited March 2, 2013 by Zamin

[husnielyas]

hey it helps. i install 2 health mods. ive always been wondering if theres any difference, kept switching between 1 health 1 armour or 2 healths. but more health (especially seeing that the number is larger, unlike armour which u cant really see when youre close to dying) seems to keep me feel safer. psychologically i guess.

EDIT: at least i know im doing it right :D

Edited February 28, 2013 by husnielyas

[Nevrmoor]

Effective health Calculation, very nice. Im all for numbercrunching and doing the math to really steamroll through the game ;D

But, Health is flat amount, not a percentage, which throws up you whole shabangabang :S

edit: Base health amounts differ as well

edit 2: Health regen like rejuvanation health orbs and trinity well of life are working better with a low amount of health and high amount of Armor, worth to mention as well

How about we create a google spreadskeet for the stat calc?

Update 7 might take a week or two to complete

You seem to have the maths and numbers down Zamin, how about you start and i join in?

Actual survivability calc:

Also, one could concider shield capacity; Shield recharge vs. time of exposure or hits taken etc.

i.e. Faster frames gain more through shield and recharge than slow moving frames

Edited February 28, 2013 by Nevrmoor

[BramBlackmon]

Well this isn't that hard. It's entirely dependant on your Warframe's base armor rating. While the effect of stacking mods is additive and not mutiplicative. The Percentages are still based on your basic rating.

to give an example.

I removed a 44 percent armor improvement rating from my excalibur, who has a base armor of 50

the mod's 44 percent boost to his armor rating took him from 50 to 71. a total of 21 points.

When applying it to my rhino, who has a base armor of 150, it took him from 150 to 213, a total of 63 points.

When applied to an ember, which has a base armor of 10. it took them from 10 to 14. A total of 4 measly points.

Now all warframes have a base health of 100, which is what is used to calculate health bonuses from mods.

applying a 44 percent health mod to any warframe would result in a gain of 44 points across the board. Which means that in the case of everything but frost and rhino, you have more gains from health mods than you do from armor mods.

Now the problem is we can't really tell how much armor rating mitigates incoming damage without first knowing the attack power of an enemy unit. If we had a solid number to go off of there, We'd be able to determine for sure if it's better to go with health or armor mods. But judging from the very basic comparisons above, In most cases, health is probably the safest bet.

Edited February 28, 2013 by BramBlackmon

[Nevrmoor]

No sir, health isnt the same on all frames, they fixed that with the big upgrade tree patch.

fore example Mag, Loki and Frost are 75 hp, Ash is 150 hp, cant tell for the rest right now.

And yes you are right, all calculations are in vain as long as we dont now how armor reduces dmg. OPs calc would assume that one point of armor is increasing your effective hp by one point, but is that the case?

And again, health mods are flat number i.e. +75 hitpoints, not 75%

edit: im not sure if armor mitigation is relying on "attack power" maybe its a flat % reduction up to a cap

10 points of armor = 5% damage reduction

Its hard to find out ingame though, shield bleedthrough on the last bit of the shield could mess with your numbers.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Nevrmoor

[Rivy]

So with most frames it is personal preference ?

I'd pick armor then, because the less health you have, the more valuable health orbs become :D

[Battleseed]

Does it really take all that math to figure out that you don't add armor to frames that start with 10? Putting two 69% armor on to a cali was very noticeable but would be a complete waist on a Nyx.

[CubedOobleck]

The game uses the EffectiveHP system and this is how you calculate them:

+X% mods are turned into 1+X/100 multipliers so for example +70% is a 1.7 multiplier or +130% is a 2.3 multiplier

so your HP is your base HP times health mod multipliers (HP=baseHP*HMM)

and your Armor is you base Armor times armor mod multipliers (A=baseA*AMM)

However your Armor is like +Armor% when you need to calculate your EHP so you need to turn it into a multiplier like you did with mods

so your EHP is your HP times your armor multiplier (EHP=HP*AM)

So for example a warframe with 50 baseHP 100 baseA equipped with a +50% health mod and a +25% armor mod has:

HP=50*1.50=75

A=100*1.25=125

EHP=75*2.25=168.25

So because of how this system works health mods will always be more effective than armor mods when it comes to reducing damage because they increase EHP more and that is what your enemy hits. However armor mods don't increase your HP and that's what health orbs and rejuvenation are applied to, so having less HP means they are more effective.

Regardless, Nyx has 150 baseHP and 10 baseA so you can guess armor mods would be completely useless: with a +100% armor mod the armor multiplier would go from 1.1 to 1.2 for a total of only 15 more EHP; even a +10% health mod would be slightly more effective.

Edited February 28, 2013 by CubedOobleck

[Rivy]

you people and your math... (･_･?)

[Dreamwalk3r]

So for example a warframe with 50 baseHP 100 baseA equipped with a +50% health mod and a +25% armor mod has:

HP=50*1.50=75

A=100*1.25=125

EHP=75*2.25=168.25

And just to clarify, where have you seen +X% HP mods?

[Nevrmoor]

Yeah, i wrote that 2 times already, here is the third:

HEALTH MODS ARE FLAT NUMBERS, NOT PERCENTAGES.

fat caps ftw...

That means poor Frost with 75 base health and 150 base armor would gain more from using armor mods than a frame with say 150 base health and 10 or 25 base armor IF:

as cubedoobleck wrote, the game uses the effHP calc, but this still has to be confirmed.

Regarding "our math" as Rivy and Battleseed mentioned , games always tend to attract a bunch of people that love to minmax their playing efforts. Too me thats fun and a cool part of the game, finding a way to get a stronger frame build, beat stuff i couldnt beat before, reaching further out, playing on higher difficulties, having less problems with any given enemy, making it look easy...

In this case effHP calc would allow me to take less mods for survivability and more mods for dmg and utility. Taking away two health mods, substituting it with one armor mod and having one slot free with the same effective hp as before.

This would allow me to put in another power range or sprint speed mod without loosing any survivability, making my frame kick more asses in the same time.

[Rivy]

Regarding "our math" as Rivy and Battleseed mentioned

I'm talking out of jealousy :P

YOU SMART PEOPLE.

[AXCrusnik]

I'd like to bring something up.... You guys have said twice now in this thread that less HP makes HP orbs and rejuvinations "more effective".

Do they actually give you less HP the more you have? Or is it simply a base amount of HP restored (e.g: +50 for every orb regardless of max HP)?

The way I see it if they always give a base amount than not using HP mods does not make them more effective... it simply recovers a higher % because you have less. In the end the amount recovered would be the same, and if it's % based I don't see the logic in reducing the HP gained as the pool increases.

[Nevrmoor]

Orbs also give a flat amount hp back.

Example one (unrealistic): someone installed health mods, hes at a stunning 800 hp and no armor besides his base armor. His health will decrease thorughout the mission. an orb gives 50 health (not sure here), thats 6.odd % hp regain. That means he increase his effective hp by 6.odd% each time he picks up a red orb once it is down from max.

Here is fancy lads Rhino: hes got 540 armor through mods and his base health of 150 (not sure about the value), picking up one orb recovers 33% of his true survivability, making armor mods increase the efficiency of health orbs and rejuvanation artifact and trinities well of life.

Those numbers are purely to illustrate the concept behind health regen efficiency.

Armor makes each point of HP harder to chew through.

[Rivy]

Armor makes each point of HP harder to chew through.

^ that's why recovering 25hp with high armor makes those 25hp more valuable :3 Edited March 1, 2013 by Rivy

[CubedOobleck]

And just to clarify, where have you seen +X% HP mods?

:O

I completely didn't notice that!

Almost every other mod used % so I made assumptions...