Warframe 1999 - Add-on content is nice, but I'd have preferred core Warframe to be the main focus

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Maybe it isn't as different as you think.

I'd like to point out one thing regarding that in relation to 1999 and even the deimos part shown.

While we might observe something as 1999 as not "core-WF" we have to consider how the devs showcase everything everytime aswell. I see as little "core-WF" in the Deimos part of the quest as I see in 1999, since well, the devs arent showing of the fast paced gameplay of WF in either of the two. Same as with all other showcases, where the devs take it far far slower than we will do when we sink our teeth into the content. They even do it with basic content that doesnt really need a slow showcase, like a new defense map or similar.

When you look at the Deimos quest part and 1999, the two practically look like they play the same, with heavy focus on the gunplay, with little parkour or abilities involved at all. This all to show the content and design behind it. If it was showcased at WF speeds, we'd likely just see a twitching camera and things dying, heck we probably wouldnt see the things dying even since the camera would probably be focused elsewhere.

[Silligoose]

On 2023-09-15 at 11:45 PM, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Maybe it isn't as different as you think.
While I have said that new and different content is (imo) the best breakaway from the regular mission grind the game is, constantly making new content that isn't part of the already present creates the phenomenon of content archipelago that so many people are upset about, and I am part of that crew, although to a lesser degree.

Most of the "core" modes are boring to me nowadays because I've done them a thousand times (perhaps literally), even though there are some which I don't get as bored of because I find them much more fun, like spy, hijack, disruption, certain assassinations, or interception.
There's also newer modes which are very neat like void flood or cascade, although cascade is way too hectic for me in solo since you gotta move far too often to rooms that are end-to-end of the map.

But do you know what I really like? Open Worlds and Railjack.
Both contain similar activities to that of the start chart and other much more enjoyable modes as part of their missions - open worlds mostly since they have more variety.
Railjack, on the other hand, is way "smaller" in that sense, with only two actual unique modes, Volatile and Skirmish, but I love the dynamic of having to be on your ship or boarding a close vessel to complete the objective, even if in the end all these missions are for the most part reused exterminates, sabotages or mobile defences on a smaller scale, but its thanks to them being together that it is more interesting than simply doing them by separate. It's "complete".

One of my favourite examples is disabling shield booster relays on Corpus Railjack, as it is a mobile defence, and an assassination!
But I do admit as to not liking Corpus Railjack because it is just copied start-chart missions with Railjack travelling between point A-B, making Railjack an extra rather than the main protagonist of the mode. Except Volatile, volatile is fantastic, though I would create a hardcore version of the mode.

 

What I mean by all of this is, I am disappointed that DE created such amazing expansions to the game, but moved on from them so soon.
I still want a major Railjack expansion that allows us to go underwater in Uranus, or visit infested vessel proximas, or even active Murex zones!
Like, heck, they made sentient aircrafts but outside of the adventures you cannot fight them!

Likewise, I wanted Narmer to have a much more deep and notorious influx on the game in general instead of being "another higher level of bounty you can pick" on Fortuna and Cetus. They were the first faction in years to introduce a new hacking method and you're telling me I basically don't get to do spy missions anywhere but the Vallis. That's a waste!

Point is, I too want to see the "core" of the game being built upon, but the base-core (pre-open worlds) is not enough on its own if expanded to make the game all that interesting, to me. Reinjecting the modern-core game towards the base-core is what I think would work best, hence why future content like Whispers in the wall being tied to Deimos (modern-core) is something I find to be a great decision by the team, or why I'd like Railjack & Open worlds to have more severe expansions.

Basically, I'd want a middle ground between the good & well established things of the past, and the possibilities of the future.
My question now is, what would you like to see as expansion for core warframe? Do you have any ideas or leads as to what would you like to do?

We'll see how different the gameplay in mentioned updates end up being. I'm looking forward to Whispers in the Wall more, as I'm guessing one would have more freedom in loadout choice (though the low level shown in the demo was a disappointment), whilst I'm guessing we won't have that much freedom in loadout choice for 1999. Time will tell though.

It appears I'm very much of like mind to you with regards to what I enjoy about the game, which basically boils down to frame gameplay. New environments in which on engages with that, like open worlds, are enjoyable to me. RJ in concept is fine, but RJ combat is shallow and to me the most enjoyable part about it remains the frame gameplay (which seems to be the case for you as well).

As for what I would like to see from core-gameplay centred updates: Much better balance would be welcomed in an optional difficulty setting, so DE no longer has to go to the extremes they do regarding enemy mechanics to present a greater level of challenge, as this then opens up more design options. I'd like to see new tile sets and/or maps. I'd like to see new mission types get tested properly and polished better eg Void Armageddon feels like it has potential to give an interesting twist on the tower defense genre being integrated with 3rd person action mechanics, but to me it feels rushed and lacking due to tower placement potential, tower types etc. I'd have to loved to see Infested Liches be in the game already. Same goes for the third Orb Mother. More events for lategame and endgame players would be nice. More bosses to take on with warframes and if balance is better, the encounters can be more interesting. Expansion of the factions we have can serve the game well, with some new enemy types and improved AI spicing things up. Both Sentient- and Narmer factions feel like underused assets as well.

Core-Warframe could've been far more dynamic at this point if DE didn't neglect it to the extent they have.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

En 16/9/2023 a las 15:17, SneakyErvin dijo:

If it was showcased at WF speeds, we'd likely just see a twitching camera and things dying, heck we probably wouldn't see the things dying even since the camera would probably be focused elsewhere.

It is true that some showcases are on the slower side, it is logical for a presentation of something new and more important, but the Prime Trailers feature what I believe you'd conceive as "WF speeds", and even on those, with their faster approach, things are easily distinguishable.

Stills, "Warframe Speeds" can be different for each player, some play faster, some slower, and some like to do one or another depending on what they're using.
Both WitW and 1999 will have regular Warframe mobility, or so it seems, therefore I do not judge their trailers based on how they DE plays them, but on how interesting things look.

 

hace 2 horas, Silligoose dijo:

I'm looking forward to Whispers in the Wall more, as I'm guessing one would have more freedom in loadout choice (though the low level shown in the demo was a disappointment), whilst I'm guessing we won't have that much freedom in loadout choice for 1999. Time will tell though.

Something tickles my nose that 1999 may be the Khal "upgrade" I recall people asking for, better movement and weapons to choose from, albeit limited.
In a way it would make sense for the addition of the Tekna skins for secondaries but it is just a theory.

 

hace 2 horas, Silligoose dijo:

RJ in concept is fine, but RJ combat is shallow and to me the most enjoyable part about it remains the frame gameplay (which seems to be the case for you as well).

Pretty much yes.
The concept was pretty cool and I loved it, but the actual product is... feeble. From playing RJ so much I can pin-point each and every problem I have with it.
It still feels kinda dum-dum that the worst part of Railjack is Railjack itself, while the Warframe gameplay somehow is elevated and feels even better than on most start-chart missions thanks to combining elements of them with more aggressive and interesting enemies.

The automatization of ship maintenance & aerial combat with AI crew and certain abilities definitively harmed it, mostly because they are extremely effective to the point where using anything else is worse in every way.
Same goes for the diversity of artillery & ship components in general, two different sets of parts dominate and there's typically one single best Plexus config.

It's been 2 years since I made my first post in the forums, and it was precisely about Railjack.
Kinda want to do a 2.0 version of it, now that I have a better grasp and understanding of many more things.

 

hace 3 horas, Silligoose dijo:

As for what I would like to see from core-gameplay centred updates:

• Much better balance would be welcomed in an optional difficulty setting, so DE no longer has to go to the extremes they do regarding enemy mechanics to present a greater level of challenge, as this then opens up more design options.
   
• I'd like to see new tile sets and/or maps.
   
• I'd like to see new mission types get tested properly and polished better eg Void Armageddon feels like it has potential to give an interesting twist on the tower defence genre being integrated with 3rd person action mechanics, but to me it feels rushed and lacking due to tower placement potential, tower types etc.
   
• I'd have to loved to see Infested Liches be in the game already.
   
• Same goes for the third Orb Mother.
   
• More events for lategame and endgame players would be nice.
   
• More bosses to take on with warframes and if balance is better, the encounters can be more interesting.
   
• Expansion of the factions we have can serve the game well, with some new enemy types and improved AI spicing things up.
  Both Sentient- and Narmer factions feel like underused assets as well.

• Balance is always a talking point I hear about, but on a power fantasy like this, what is the right balance?
  Fixing received and dealt damage could be a potential start, or at least the one I'd take.
   
• New tilesets or maps are always around the corner, but these aren't necessarily a core-warframe related thing, nor are properly tested game modes.
   
• I wanted infested Liches too. A hint pre-tennocon was given but ultimately nothing was shown or disclosed about them, and honestly, they could have made a Torid, Toxocyst and Ichor Lich variant instead of making them Incarnon, moreover the Torid which now isn't even used for what the Torid is but the alt fire.
  Non-tenno weapons being affected by the void like this still does not sit right with me.
   
• Fun little tale I think I've mentioned a couple times already, I do visit the Orb Mother fairly often, each update to be precise.
  She has a Narmer Drone around her pool ever since TNW, but she remains chillin' there.
   
• More events could be nice, we used to have a fair amount of them back then, although I missed a lot of the original ones since I wasn't around.
   
• New bosses are always welcome, Corrupted Jackal on his own is quite neat, but he's still the only punchbag in the game that has to be executed with the Parazon because "Tenno, you got this blade thingy since a while ago, happens to be useful against this one boss casually after it was reworked."
  There's still two enemies I'd like to fight to this day, those being Pazuul and that one jumbo sentient amalgam you can find on Alad V's room when it is overtaken by Narmer.
   
• And yes, Sentient & Narmer just got massively humiliated and sent into oblivion once the Tenno stepped in.
  Sentients used to be scary, now they are a smaller, weird enemy faction, and Narmer, once more, a day-long imperium of dust.

[Silligoose]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Something tickles my nose that 1999 may be the Khal "upgrade" I recall people asking for, better movement and weapons to choose from, albeit limited.
In a way it would make sense for the addition of the Tekna skins for secondaries but it is just a theory.

It is early days, but I'm getting the same sense. I can see those skins working given the setting.

3 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

Pretty much yes.
The concept was pretty cool and I loved it, but the actual product is... feeble. From playing RJ so much I can pin-point each and every problem I have with it.
It still feels kinda dum-dum that the worst part of Railjack is Railjack itself, while the Warframe gameplay somehow is elevated and feels even better than on most start-chart missions thanks to combining elements of them with more aggressive and interesting enemies.

The automatization of ship maintenance & aerial combat with AI crew and certain abilities definitively harmed it, mostly because they are extremely effective to the point where using anything else is worse in every way.
Same goes for the diversity of artillery & ship components in general, two different sets of parts dominate and there's typically one single best Plexus config.

It's been 2 years since I made my first post in the forums, and it was precisely about Railjack.
Kinda want to do a 2.0 version of it, now that I have a better grasp and understanding of many more things.

It was unfortunate to see what RJ ended up being.

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

• Balance is always a talking point I hear about, but on a power fantasy like this, what is the right balance?
  Fixing received and dealt damage could be a potential start, or at least the one I'd take.
   
• New tilesets or maps are always around the corner, but these aren't necessarily a core-warframe related thing, nor are properly tested game modes.
   
• I wanted infested Liches too. A hint pre-tennocon was given but ultimately nothing was shown or disclosed about them, and honestly, they could have made a Torid, Toxocyst and Ichor Lich variant instead of making them Incarnon, moreover the Torid which now isn't even used for what the Torid is but the alt fire.
  Non-tenno weapons being affected by the void like this still does not sit right with me.
   
• Fun little tale I think I've mentioned a couple times already, I do visit the Orb Mother fairly often, each update to be precise.
  She has a Narmer Drone around her pool ever since TNW, but she remains chillin' there.
   
• More events could be nice, we used to have a fair amount of them back then, although I missed a lot of the original ones since I wasn't around.
   
• New bosses are always welcome, Corrupted Jackal on his own is quite neat, but he's still the only punchbag in the game that has to be executed with the Parazon because "Tenno, you got this blade thingy since a while ago, happens to be useful against this one boss casually after it was reworked."
  There's still two enemies I'd like to fight to this day, those being Pazuul and that one jumbo sentient amalgam you can find on Alad V's room when it is overtaken by Narmer.
   
• And yes, Sentient & Narmer just got massively humiliated and sent into oblivion once the Tenno stepped in.
  Sentients used to be scary, now they are a smaller, weird enemy faction, and Narmer, once more, a day-long imperium of dust.

When discussing balance in Warframe, I want to start with the concept of power fantasy: It doesn't only mean being a god stomping on mortals that can't really challenge them, but includes games in which players feel powerful yet challenged. Games like Hades, Diablo, Doom and Ninja Gaiden are all also power fantasy games within different genres, even though the experience can vary from being a god stomping mortals, to feeling like a god challenging even more powerful gods. Due to Warframe's progression system, players of differing levels of power would overcome the same level of content, thus experiencing different levels of challenge, yet still enjoy the experience. Due to this, a vast spectrum of players that enjoy various levels of challenge, from very easy, to very difficult, make their way to around lategame. I believe the game would be better served if that motif of varying challenge remains available through into the endgame, as can be seen in other games with progression systems.

As for where to start... many mechanics and systems within the game are intertwined and ideally an optional level(s) of challenge would be made available that balances player damage output, relative frame durability and survivability, enemy damage, enemy durability and how said durability is attained, cc-efficacy, enemy spawn rates and numbers, how all of this scales etc. It sounds like a lot and yes, it will take more than cancelling Thursday afternoon's golfing session to come up with some ideas as was seen with SP (very low effort offering in terms of balancing adjustments), but it isn't all that much or complicated. I've seen some players exclaim Warframe 2 would be easier to make as opposed to balancing Warframe... no, Warframe 2 would require far more effort😂 I's mostly about addressing ratios.

I meant I'd like to see new tile sets, maps and missions to be designed with frames in mind first and foremost. had DE spent less time on add-on content, we may have had even more mission types for frames by now.

I wasn't aware of the Narmer Drone around the Orb Mother - I'll keep an eye out if heading down those parts again🙂

Incarnon Weapons... I know some like them, but I'm not one of those people. Maybe in time I'll come to embrace the duality of some of the offerings, but I didn't particularly like the way some of the Genesis models especially were handled, as it felt as though the weapons were chosen and changed in feel and function mainly for monetization, with a dash of band-aid to make single target more appealing by turning them in a form of AoE.

I agree with the rest of your thoughts, but I do wish to continue with a line of thought you bring up: Parazon. In all honesty the Parazon rework seemed like another waste of resources, borne from someone's want to put something into the game they can point to in order to say "Look! Look! I did this part!!!", but in reality, it doesn't add much to the game. I'd argue in some cases it is a detriment to the game.

 

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

It is true that some showcases are on the slower side, it is logical for a presentation of something new and more important, but the Prime Trailers feature what I believe you'd conceive as "WF speeds", and even on those, with their faster approach, things are easily distinguishable.

Stills, "Warframe Speeds" can be different for each player, some play faster, some slower, and some like to do one or another depending on what they're using.
Both WitW and 1999 will have regular Warframe mobility, or so it seems, therefore I do not judge their trailers based on how they DE plays them, but on how interesting things look.

Oh indeed, the prime trailers are on the more WF speedy side. But they are also just movies edited properly that way i.e not Michael Bay editing. Gameplay showcases are a different beast, since they need to go slow to show things, which also ends up problematic for the viewer, since we might go "will it really play at this pace?". Or like the limited pieces we saw of Kahl when he had a jetpack, where I actually thought it would be an addition to the Kahl gameplay that would speed up his movement compared to his limited TNW appearance. Which turned out to be a completely wrong assumption lol.

Exactly. I was sceptic to 1999 when the showcase started inside the metro car, but as the combat was then shown, with rolling and bullet jumping along with some limited ability use and standard warframe weapon combat the scepticism went away. Since at that point I thought "yeah just regular showcase pace overall". And for WitW, well it is a regular WF update utilizing the frame, so there the showcase pace was of no concern to me at all. But for 1999 I'll just have to wait and see how it actually turns out and how similar it will be. I'm more worried that it will be like Kahl in the way of having nothing to chase or progress through within the mode. If it turns out slightly slower to regular WF gameplay I dont really care aslong as it still has the same combat feel overall. Because I find that the game could use a slower more vanilla-like movement pace, aslong as there is worthwhile and interesting progression tied to it that can also be utilized in the regular game. Just allow me to roll and bullet jump etc. Reduce how far those things take me and I wont mind if the maps are properly designed for it, and not Gas City sized in width and elevation.

edit: Oh and another thing regarding showcase pace and how it actually turns out. NecraMechs. The Deimos showcase we got of them made them look heavy and slow, far from how they actually turned out and play in the game (when we are allowed to use them).

Edited September 19, 2023 by SneakyErvin