SneakyErvin

Sure, but you still can, unless you are in very specific situations/areas. Things that are far and few in between. But that is insanely long. From beginning to having a finished build it took me about 30 minutes to have him ready. He isnt a complex frame to build thanks to his stats and straight forward skills. At that point I practically had two setups I experimented a little with, mostly seeing if I should go with more strength+dura or just add efficiency plus capping it. So say an hour total to figure out which build to actually settle with in the slots I had polarized. You can still do that with LoS. The 360 LoS is reliable in its current state. That you exaggerate to the point where you say shadows stop it makes me wonder how much you've played him after that friday patch or more importantly after the recent DV fix. It's is extremely hard to run into a situation where either of the two skills get blocked by anything. My main issue with him since release was DV failing to mark up until it was fixed. I've done the same room and I've had no issues there with hitting things infront of or behind me. I had some issues with priming in Labs (not just that room) prior to the fix, even across a few simple elevations, but nothing since the DV fix. I think they did, and I think most potential feedback regading him being disruptive came from there. I'm more shocked when DE tests things in high level content. DE probably saw the LoS problem from the first change and directly saw an opportunity to fix it and several other similar mechanics instead of just doing something else specifically tied to Tragedy. Doing something that can benefit several different parts is likely seen as more beneficial than doing something very narrow that only affects a single thing. That is how I'd look at it, make this one thing better or make all these things better? I'd go option two without a doubt. Not only due to it fixing several things, but because it also paves the way for further similar implementation in a working state right out the door.

They dont advertise how the frames work, so no, it cannot be bait and switch. If you bought it based on some pre-knowledge of how it works that is not info provided by DE. So if you've bought it based on pre-knowledge you've bought it based on what other players unaffiliated with DE have revealed about the frame. You should also read the ToS, since you dont own that product even, you practically rent it with whatever changes that might happen to it for aslong as you decide to play or are allowed by the developer to keep playing their game. Sucks when it happens. I still miss "my" Rocket Raccoon, Deadpool, Black Cat, Angela among others from "my" Marvel Heroes.

I liked it, but I think the design decision on DEs part was influenced by the playerbase. They saw all these "Remove LoS!", "Remove LoS from Dante!" and so on and went "Oh that is a great idea, lets remove Life Support as a variable in Deep Archemedea from the Dante Unbound update!", then the other guy/gal goes "There is an o in their request aswell" followed by a "🤷‍♂️" from the first guy/gal. So, those that do not like this modifier, blame the Dante crew! could have been true if the modifier wasnt part of the 1.0 Deep release.

IMO Blast should have been the direct damage AoE elemental combo. Where each hit that lands adds an AoE explosion of 5m (or something) based on your modded blast damage similar to how melee influence works. It wouldnt benefit from multishot since it already benefits from multishots by being a status proc.

Variable to a minimal extent. If the mobs are strong enough for you to need to use Tragedy you are bound by a limited amount of DVs in either case, since you need the stack to kill the target when you end up detonating. If the target is weaker you can just aswell just skip Tragedy as it is now. But you didnt invest 20 hours into him. Your invested time is the mastery trip, and I very much doubt you leveled him so slowly that it took you 20h. I'm also curious what part of the caster playstyle went away for you with the nerfs. I'm about to catch up to my Kullervo in kills, playing Dante as nearly pure caster for most of the time spent on him. And I've only spent a fraction of the time on Dante compared to Kullervo, which was my most played frame of 2023. I've also played Kullervo a great deal recently and not only Dante, my Dante has also not had access to a broken Influential Dual Ichor for an extended period of time. Just his skills mostly. And he would have caught up to my Kullervo if I didnt play Kullervo alot recently aswell. Not really something you would expect from an "inconsistent" frame. What exactly in your playstyle changed? Did you rely so much on attacking enemies behind walls? Because his LOS currently works near perfectly thanks to the most recent fix that also made DV work properly. Even in the most cluttered places it works without trouble, the only thing that makes it (DV or Trag) not deal damage are sraight up walls or a solid pilar blocking your view/camera angle. That just makes them look even worse in my eyes. I also expect they've barely touched the frame after any of the fixes, and instead live on assumptions and mob mentality. To me it is understandable that they adjusted him based on those "tenets". Just because something already exsists it doesnt mean the flood gates need to stay open for future releases. And some of those older frames live and die on that hill, their kits practically have nothing else to compensate a removal of those parts. Most of them also require far higher investments while Dante started out with high stats across the board on every skill. Tragedy for instance has insane base damage and the largest radius in the game. Even if DE were to nerf the range instead, the abuse at lower levels would be there, since even with neutral strength he'd kill whatever he touches with Tragedy while covering the whole map. Because due to his high base skill stats, he can skip adding duration etc. So an adjustment to make him less disruptive at low levels was to add LoS. Though, moving his base damage over to the detonation on Tragedy would have also worked.

I dont see why a $50 spender would suddenly spend $100. Wasnt their restriction that they couldnt pay more than 50 to start with? You'd have DE sell what was otherwise worth $100 for $50, you wouldnt see the $50 spender suddenly spending $100. That $50 spender would just get $100 value from his $50, or be able to cut it down to $25 and get the same as he got previously for $50. And this second part is just good, since too many items should not be buyable with cash. Since when games start to introduce more and more in a cash shop, the harsher the drop tables get for that loot. And the Dante people exaggerate most of it, since he is just as powerful as before, they just removed a low level nuking thing really. Which is likely what most people used him for since it required less than any other frame since he has such insanely high base stats on everything coupled with low costs. They also claim it was bait and switch, even though there was never any info released regarding how Dantes kit would work specifically. It's also good if they wont buy the next bundle since it will result in less abusive comments towards the devs over minor changes. Most of what we've seen coming from the Dante crowd is pure filth.

I was just used to it from the start, since I already enjoyed my caster Dagath, which is practically built as a full rotation RPG caster going through 1 to 4 constantly. But yeah I can see how Dante is spammy. Heck, my main gripe with Dante is that they placed his 3 buff icons in the buff bar and not above his tome UI. Resulting in me rebuffing more often than needed, since I follow my Roar duration instead, since it is easy to spot on the skill bar. While tracking the Dante buffs among 2 full lines of buffs all of the same color is nearly impossible. Yeah it's mostly on the real defense targets, including the living version where it seems to have its own will regarding how long it wants to last. Buffed one up to max together with the group but the next second I turn over to the defense target the OG is gone. I think the people should get used to live service games instead. Since this is normal where I come from. I also have a very hard time seeing how this would make him less spammy. You'd remove some tragedy casts, but you'd also just replace them with more DV casts. The people that also wave the money card are sadly just exaggerating. They purchsed the frame without knowing anything regarding how the skills would work, so would have purchased him with or without LoS at release just as happily. And the time invested is practically nothing. My total mastery time on him was about 30 minutes. The forma investment might be harsh for some, but not exactly a big investment in the end. These are also people that act as if he is unplayable, it isnt a playstyle angle like you have, they are literally calling him weak and unplayable, some going to extents of claiming a drop from S tier to D tier etc. These people should not be listened to, since they only talk random crap and have likely barely touched the frame or taken him to anything but low level S#&$. Most likely will also just want the AoE back to keep destroying low level S#&$. Hence why we see all the "remove LoS but reduce range", cos they dont care about priming at all. And they know that even with a 20m range they can dump strength for range mod and still wipe the star chart with neutral strength and low modding investments. I completely understand your personal angle, since you enjoyed a specific playstyle. And we all grow attached to things. But the exaggerating drooling masses? I have squat sympathy for them. Sorry to hear that. To whomever you lost! 🍺 Have you tried him properly after the changes, since he still plays very strong as a caster frame. There is really no problem playing him as full caster, full platform or a hybrid.

Spamming this doesnt make it true. They've already pinpointed what caused that bug (which was his Tragedy runes staying after cast, eventually filling more and more of the map and tanking fps) and fixed it in the recent patch. So for someone complaining and spamming as much as you do, maybe stay ontop of the things you complain about?

I agree with what you say here. For me the restistance towards removing LoS now is simply because it is a now thing and would need other things changed instead. So it would be new work needed in order to remove something they have already worked on to fix something. If they had done something else for starters I wouldnt have minded Tragedy not having LoS requirements, since instead they would have fixed the problem they saw in another way. Preferably if I had done the initial changes I would have simply moved the base damage of the skill and baked it into the detonation as the same flat damage value it is now. There, boom, skill just as strong as it was and without any nuke potential on unmarked targets. I would have then also potentially removed any group interaction with detonation aswell, so Dante would need to be the primer in order to detonate anything. I would however not go back now and change things, since it isnt like Dante isnt working, he works pretty damn well overall. If there isnt time to give frames attention that actually need it I really cant see a justification to go back to Dante again when all it would do it open up a bit more playstyles. I mean, there isnt really a thing Dante cannot do really well aside from improving the durability of a defense target in a proper way. He has crazy dps in his skills, absurdly good OG (the best in the game without a contest), increadible debuffs and buffs. His potential as a weapon platform is great considering how wordwarden works. It improves his single target damage, and if combined with influence and most notably dual ichor it will also spread extra statuses across the targets hit by either influence or the cloud, since those count as Dante's attack rate. Right now I play him as a caster+melee hybrid, since it gives me the most use out of his whole kit. When I come across a large group I tend to nuke them, if I move on between smaller groups I tend to spam some DV on approach and cut them up with my melee supported by wordwarden. And at the rate he shreds heavy units either with weapons or skills is insane. Right now he rivals my Kullervo with melee, even though my Dante's is 6 crit tiers behind and a couple of multipliers lower on crit damage.

If it sends me to the halls of Aegir I'll give it a 👍. I wouldnt mind cuddling with his nine daughters!

That is dieselpunk. You just fail to understand or simply lack knowledge regarding how much more advanced the technology is in WH40k. Again, it isnt about how things look, it is heavily influenced by how things work. Only aestethically. Orks for instance would get crossed off since it isnt about humans, it is an alien race with its own tech levels, which for that matter is also far more advanced than what would be considered dieselpunk. They aswell use what would be considered advanced weaponry, computer technology along with very advanced cybernetics (in comparison to Dieselpunk). And the Sentinel for instances uses advanced onboard computer targetting systems and so on. Dieselpunk is more or less completely void of computers. We should also not forget that handheld or weapon mounted radar/scanner equipment is common within the IG. And if we look at aestethics, it isnt that "some WH40k is dieselpunk inspired", it would be more correct to say dieselpunk is inspired by 40k, or inspired by something that also inspired parts of 40k. WH40k has exsisted since the 80's while dieselpunk wasnt coined until post-2000. We should also be very clear that Dieselpunk for the most part also draws inspiration from Art Deco, while WH40k is Gothic. When it comes to the "revolt" lore tied to -punk, it isnt clear cut in wh40k since what is the true revolt? The common man isnt revolting, not even in settings like Necromunda where you kinda would expect it. But that setting is really just gang versus gang, where the fighting is done for various different reasons and agendas depending on the gang in question. Spyre members are sent down from the spire in order to prove they are prepared to eventually enter the cut throat scene that is politics. Other gangs see the underhive as living with their god and so on and fight the others simply because they see them as desecrating their god. The closest to revolt comes in Inquisitor, but in that game setting it is more an anti-terrorist or crime angle, where you mostly root out actual evil cells of xenos or chaos that try to take over the planet. So it is more a game about covert war overall.

A whale is someone that spends obscene amounts on a game. It is a direct transfer of the term as used in gambling. Like those seen in games like Diablo Immortal for instance that spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on gem RNG etc. Or those in the early days of Diablo 3 that spent tens of thousands of euro/dollars on the RMAH to buy gear from others. You are... uhm... not a whale. I'm not sure if you'd even clock in as a minnow, goldfish or a can of fermented herring. And yes a whale would be somewhat like what you describe with plat and plat+rivens, but they'd need to do this on a constant basis, not just on some occassion where they need plat for something they want and cant wait for a discount, or want a riven "nao!" badly. Whales are just so far beyond that to a point where it is hard to comprehend how someone can even consider spending that much on a game. I think an important thing the "poor" people need to consider is that if the cash-shop monetization catered to them they might have not been able to play the game at all, since the game at that point might have not been free as it is now. Maybe new content would instead be sold, or a constant sub needed or similar. Or some of the current free things would be locked behind payment only, like new frames. Or have harsh grinds like Star Trek Online, where taking the free path to a new ship results in a year long grind.

You are aware why she is hitting stuff several rooms away in that video right? Broken Dual Ichor spreading itself with Toxic Lash active popping the spores to travel with the broken Dual Ichor clouds. This wont happen at a rate close to that for her without that specific broken interaction, since if she just lets the spores do the work, they will fall off, since only the innitial target spreads spores on spore-kill death. She needs either LoS to spread with weapons through Toxin Lash, accurate hit on spore, or killing the enemy, or she can spread it with miasma allowing the DoTs to kill and still spread. KPS is only ever worth mentioning in a solo setting. And as I said, consistently reach, meaning throughout missions no matter the length. For me that would be up to 2 hours in SP, since at that point I often find myself in need to take a break and do something else. And it is/was the same versus any faction. And KPS does tell a picture of performance, since if they can maintain high KPS the damage is produced fast and high enough to kill quickly when needed. Yes like with every frame that relies on weapons. I'm simply pointing out that Dante (and Dagath) are strong enough to do it with just their abilities. They can kill as effectively with their skills as an "ability-less" frame does with weapons. Inaros has sick potential as a weapon frame, melee most notably, with how his kit works. And his KPS and damage was never a problem as they straight up said in the devshort. They clearly wanted to get rid of low level disruptive gameplay and certain higher level combinations when in a group. LoS impacts him the least overall since he is already restricted to cone bases priming at shorter range. Reducing his range would do nothing, since it isnt that he reached the range he did by massive range investments. Even reducing it to 25m or 20m would still leave the disruptive low level gameplay, since you'd still be able to reach massive range with him. Because his kit is simply just that forgiving in stats. And anything lower than that would make the kit clunky, since you'd end up priming at far greater ranges than you can detonate.

Overkilling things in half the charge time isnt an upgrade compared to just overkilling something excessivly more but also far slower? 🤷‍♂️ Vandal goes Pew! = target dead and overkilled. Regular goes Peeeeew! = target dead and extra much overkilled. Kinda like the Sisters brother punching the corpse of the colonel "just to be sure". As for weapons I'd like to see Kuvanized. Ack & Brunt, can I please have? I can see it now "Chokh Ehr Kuva Ack & Brunt Incarnon" with innate electric, so we can be true influencers for our fans in Sol! I'll even throw in a personal spectral axe in the deal!

Let's just hope it isnt on a boat in the english channel. *badum-cha* Too early? As to the OP. If I bless you at any point in time you are welcome and thank you for the thank you. I dont expect any thanks ever, whether it be due to relay blessings or something during a mission, or for just being in my unholy glorious presence in general. It is just my humble nature.

Dagath is forgettable to me for the same reason so many other frames are forgettable these days. And that reason is, none of them is Kullervo. That said, Dagath is a wonderful caster frame. I still love my extremely tanky Death Knight that dooms everything, slashes it with flying scythes and beats the enemy up with dead hor... kaithes. While providing an abundance of health and energy orbs thanks to my subsume choice Fractured Blast. 1+2+3+4 and repeat. The perfect rotation frame.

But that isnt something that should concern DE, not one bit, since it isnt realistic. DE is in the end located in Canada, the prices need to be set in a fashion so it makes ends meet for them. They are for instance expected to pay that 50k a year and not the 12k a year to an employee. Here in sweden for someone with even a low paying job $100 would be nothing in a year (if we dont include a need to support others). For me $100 would be nothing even if it was on a monthly basis, and that would be with a low paying job. Say I'd get $1500 (well below avarage or a part time job with avarage pay) after tax, I'd still be able to save around $600 per month since my expenses are so low. Food+rent+electricity+internet comes out at around $800 for me in a month, it gets slightly higher during march, since the new rent comes around at that point, with some adjustments for jan-march on that bill, so that month my expenses are likely $900. Still even with that I could spend on WF and still save around $500. I could technically get away with 12k per year and still manage to spend 100 on WF a few times per year without feeling it impacting me.

No the aestethics arent dieselpunk, the aestethics of WH40k is dark gothic with a splash of brutalism thrown in. You can see this on anything from the smaller vehicles all the way up to their capatial ships and planet killers when it comes to the human factions (including chaos). And when we look to the theme of the humans, it isnt about hardship, it is simply life of those born on IG homeworlds. In reality the imperium is based on a fusion between ancient greece and the "holy" roman empire. Where you are born into a "state" and either stay home to maintain it for generations or sign up for the state army to fight for the overall "kingdom", and the roman part comes in with how the inner workings of the imperium is set up regarding phobia, heresy, belief, doctrine etc. And it isnt that the tech is a few months more advanced. It is decades upon decades and centuries. Diselpunk is based on WW1-WW2 or there around. WW1 was over 100 years ago by now and WW2 is soon 80 years in the past. We still do not have laser weapons (or plasmas or meltas) in our day and age, we dont have a widespread use (barely any) of weapons with caseless ammo, we do not have anything but basic grenades etc. In 40k the faction you claim to be dieselpunk has all of that in widespread use, things like both plasma and melta grenades aswell as this finicky thing called a Vortex grenade (caution: use at your own risk). Ontop of that they have real cybernetics, from small things like fingers and hands all the way to the replacement of most of a body. All this also uses computers, advanced computers for targetting etc. when attached to an eye for instance. In addition to those things the IG also makes use of what could best be described as Sentienls from WF, that also allows the owner to connect to it with a highly advanced shared interface. Energy shields is also another thing that the IG makes use of, not for the common trooper obviously, but still available all the same. Heck, the (human) tech is so advanced in WH40k that it is seen as coming from the tech god Deus Machina/Omnissiah, whom apparently exsists as much as the gods of chaos and those of the other factions, like Gork, Mork, Khaine or the extremely old and powerful C'Tan (plural).

That is a very terrible video to use if you want to make a case for Saryn. It also shows you keep up little with what changes go into the game overall, and that you dont actually watch or understand what you watch in something like the video you provide. It is for instance not "what Saryn can do" in that video. It shows the broken state of Dual Ichor at the time of that video, which was fixed around 2 months ago or 2 months after that video went live. In addition to that Saryn adds practically nothing to the performance of Dual Ichor in that video, you can see that by the KPS produced in those 10 minutes. It adds up to 2.5 KPS per second, which with an avarage Dual Ichor at the time was pretty normal stats no matter the frame, you just had to know how influence worked. I consistently reached the 2.5 KPS with Revenant for crying out loud, and when I used Kullervo it would push to 2.8 aswell as 3.0 at times. And saying Dante hasnt been close is hilariously wrong, since a full caster playstyle can maintain 2.2 KPS unless the map is horribly set up with bad flow, the same KPS goes for Dagath with a full caster playstyle. And I have no clue why you keep saying "detonating spores". All that does is spread them, you still need to wait for the ticks to kill (which is also limited to 3 instances per target unless you specifically spam 1 on an enemy), so no lol, it isnt faster than 334 on Dante which effectively kills in those few seconds of casting the rotation on a room of enemies. Even if you add more DV to mark more of a room before detonating you kill faster than spores ever will. And you say it isnt about him being weak or dealing low damage then all of a sudden you weave in how other frames and weapons deal better damage? Like uhm make up your mind?

You are at this point throwing all of the tech out the window and base "diselpunk" on aestethics. Dieselpunk didnt come up with the aestethics, it just means that 40k (in some parts) are inspired by the same thing that inspired the visuals of Dieselpunk. I'm not even sure which game you refer to where you talk about Guard Tech recharging in campfires. And no lol, it isnt just the lasers, it is the superior technology overall. You go soley by the look, I'm talking about the actual tech of the whole universe. Even your aestethic angle went out the window when you used Cadia as an example of dieselpunk when it is at worst modern era military aestethics, with some future soldier concepts thrown in. I'm just gonna ask you one thing. Is your 40k and IG knowledge tied to Darktide possibly? It would likely explain the campfire comment, since it is the only game I can think of that might have such a mechanic. Because if it is, you might wanna read up on the lore that stretches back to the uhm... 70's or so.

I dont see the monetization angle, since the way these systems are set up I see no incentive to spend on more things. I only see a slight incentive to getting of my ass and finish some of the things I've saved since I wanted them in order to use them. But getting more items to add to the pile I see zero reason to, since that would just mean I'd end up with the things I want to use less, since those things I dont wanna use but suddenly get would start competing for the "guaranteed" pulls in those systems. But hey, if you like shooting yourself in the foot who am I to judge, we all have our kinks and fetiches.

It is often tied to the era of the tech level. WH40k however is far beyond that tech level. You are wrong on that. The most common weapon used by the Imperial Guard as a whole is the Lasgun, with specialty gunners making use of either Melta or Plasma Guns. Sgts tend to use a Laspistol together with a Power Sword. And Sentinels tend to either have a Las/Plasma/Auto Cannon, a Heavy Bolter or a Multimelta. The reason some Imp Guard units look like they have WW2 tech is because they arent strong enough to carry the weaponry on their person, so make use of "WW2" gun platforms to utilize what is otherwise hand carried Space Marine Devastator/Longfang weaponry like Las/Plasma/Auto Cannons, Rocket Launchers, Heavy Bolters and Multimeltas. And even if we were to look at the autogun that is more common on "reserve" Imperial Guard, it is far beyond dieslpunk levels as they use caseless ammunition. This is before even considering the more advanced cooling and optics available, along with muzzle velocity rate of fire and other things compared to diesel era and beyond guns. However, what takes most away from IG being dieselpunk is that the most used and easiest to manufacture gun is the Lasgun. Meaning the technological level is high even for the most basic weapon. We discuss it since you objected to WF having dieselpunk while saying WH40k has it.

Yeah I just mean I cant see how it impacts the experience of the game. "Boo-hoo! I cant afford the Toy that does nothing for me in the game". It's a collectible to get if you really like the game and really like collectibles tied to things you like. And yeah, the tag seems high since the price to make them is likely also high in the first place. I personally think it is great that companies/bands do these things. I'd kill for a Norse Stone Troll sculpture back in the day when I played Dark Age of Camelot, or a little Kobold maybe. Got so happy when Amon Amarth had a Surtur sculpture availble through a limited edition release of the Surtur Rising album. One thing I wonder about what was said is the 10% of the players funding the game. Does that account for only active players or total players. Since that is a huge difference in the end.

I'm just really curious what a seperate collectible has to do with the game and the pricing in the game. Like I cant really follow that thought process at all. Do you complain about the price of an Alien movie bluray being too high when you go out and grab a $100 Alien collectible statue? 🤷‍♂️ "Raw experience" refers to how much she gets out of it per dollar as opposed to if she had a discount. The amount spent doesnt matter. $1k is only nothing if you have the money and want more, if you've gotten what you want the $1k is enough for the time being no matter what you earn. Spending for the sake of spending seems rather uhm idiotic. It would also kinda scew the "raw experience" since you'd spend on things you neither want nor need. $1k is also roughly comparable to a sub based game over the same period, and even comes off cheaper with more bang per buck compared to a sub based game. 8 years of WoW roughly cost me $1300. So being able to pay $1k in order enjoy a game throughout 11 years seems rather fair and indicates the game has a good F2P setup.

No. Punk as in the "sociopolitical" sense, the marginalized common people if you wanna call it that, the working class etc. Even if we mark this off as optional, you still arent bound to a specific technological state in 40k to call it any type of -punk. Shadowrun for instance is cyberpunk since the tech in that universe is of that level, even if it has fantasy races and spells thrown in there aswell. WH40k isnt really defined by any certain tech level, it is just so very advanced and uses several different levels of what is considered technology, from basic fuel, warp tech on the supernatural level, super advanced bio-tech, super advanced nano-tech, cyber-tech that makes cyberpunk look like stoneage in comparison and so on. And that is only if we look at what is achieved by man and disregard all aliens. It also takes place 40000 years into the future, so just misses the mark of steam, disel and cyber- punk by 37-38000 years or so. A similar setting that could be considered a punk universe would be Mutant Chronicles/Space or Warzone if you wanna call it that. A universe where man has achieved very advanced technology but got set back to what we have now or earlier for the most part due to an ancient evil returning from beyond Pluto and our dimension. An evil that returns each 1000 years after its previous defeat. The difference in the era that the universe takes place is that this time one of the many corporations that rule Sol have come up with technology immune to the corruption of this Dark Legion of ancient gods and their dark symmetry. Giving them access to advanced weaponry, including people transfered into A.I and robotic bodies. But due to the constant fighting between the corporations the technology isnt willingly shared. The only real way for others to make use of this technology is by sending skilled fighters from their corporation to the multireligious mystical and magic wielding Brotherhood to fight as Doom Troopers alongside them and other corporation Doom Trooper duos, including the highly advanced Cybertronic. And while the members of Cybertronic are immune to corruption both in body and mind, it is looked upon with scepticism by many, including more orthodox parts of the Brotherhood, considering it potential witchcraft and possibly a case of being in league with the Dark Legion.