A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[theGreatZamboni]

snip

 

Other than containing numerous and erroneous statements, nothing you have said makes any sense as it paints a very clear picture for me: You did not truly read the OP. I would recommend re-reading the entire thread, which again includes the OP. If you do not want to, I am again extending the opportunity to explain why I feel you are simply not understanding it. I would like to avoid me having to quote myself to defend against insipid critiques, especially if the issues in question have already been answered or weighed then discounted. If the intent is now to find issue with the idea outside of "too much work", "I don't like it" or to misrepresent what is suggested as a means of deflecting my ideas/criticism of the game, we should actively try to stop this cycle before it continues for another 30 pages. Simply, every issue you seem to have is either completely off base, incorrect or has been addressed. Parts containing matters of opinion as they pertain to proving the point can only be judged as such, opinions. I make sure to stress that the major issues I am finding outside of poor design are that of opinion. But that does not make either opinion wrong. When it comes to judging any proposed system from an objective standpoint, what I have pitched fixes nearly if not all issues we currently face. The issue then remains that of implementation, interpretation and flavor. To say "your system won't work" then not back it up, lessens any credibility to your juxtaposition.

 

So simply, again, re-read the entire thread. If you do not want to, I will again explain why I chose to present the thread and ideas in the way I have. I will again explain the issues and stagnation that will persist if something drastic does not happen. I will continue to work on the complementary threads, but again I do this in my free time. To have to use this time repeating myself becomes what I have described as "tedium".

Edited December 13, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Elestor]

Other than containing numerous and erroneous statements, nothing you have said makes any sense as it paints a very clear picture for me: You did not truly read the OP. I would recommend re-reading the entire thread, which again includes the OP. If you do not want to, I am again extending the opportunity to explain why I feel you are simply not understanding it. I would like to avoid me having to quote myself to defend against insipid critiques, especially if the issues in question have already been answered or weighed then discounted. If the intent is now to find issue with the idea outside of "too much work", "I don't like it" or to misrepresent what is suggested as a means of deflecting my ideas/criticism of the game, we should actively try to stop this cycle before it continues for another 30 pages. Simply, every issue you seem to have is either completely off base, incorrect or has been addressed. Parts containing matters of opinion as they pertain to proving the point can only be judged as such, opinions. I make sure to stress that the major issues I am finding outside of poor design are that of opinion. But that does not make either opinion wrong. When it comes to judging any proposed system from an objective standpoint, what I have pitched fixes nearly if not all issues we currently face. The issue then remains that of implementation, interpretation and flavor. To say "your system won't work" then not back it up, lessens any credibility to your juxtaposition.

 

So simply, again, re-read the entire thread. If you do not want to, I will again explain why I chose to present the thread and ideas in the way I have. I will again explain the issues and stagnation that will persist if something drastic does not happen. I will continue to work on the complementary threads, but again I do this in my free time. To have to use this time repeating myself becomes what I have described as "tedium".

 

I can see you dont accept other opinions than the ones that coincides with yours. Fact is i read your OP  x2 times already .

.You dont want to belive me thats your problem, but i suggest you stop with failed assumptions. 

You dont like other opinions and discussion of your ideas , again your problem.  

I for one had an open mind and considered your ideas also considering multiple solutions to problems you stated. 

As i can see you have not , discrediting or calling them "erroneous" ,"off base" & "incorrect" with no real basis. 

 

You are wrong yet again in the assumption of "I dont like it" as i stated in both my posts that there are things i liked and agree on and things i didint like and disagree.Giving constructive feedback. Everyone can read it.

"too much work " again is faulty , since i stated that i doubt they will implement grate change considering a finantial point of view and other commitments. You misread . 

Furthermore why would you assume i have the slightest interest of "deflecting" your ideas ? Simply put i just gave you feedback , showing my oppinion. 

 

 

So ill send you my skype id so you wont have to make failed accusations and you can explain away your vision on fixing the gameplay. 

Ill be sure to show you my point of view and we can talk why i said your sulution has some kinks and has used systems form other games.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Elestor

[tmtke]

- snip -

 

I will continue to work on the complementary threads, but again I do this in my free time. To have to use this time repeating myself becomes what I have described as "tedium".

 

I think everybody else is writing here, except DE staff, can be considered doing this in their free time.

 

Look, as I said before, the system you outlined, is good in many ways - except that is not warframe, it's a mix from other shooters (where I don't like the millions of different attachments, while they are mostly just cosmetics) and some melee centered games, where the enemies aren't so numerous. Your Fight Lab is basically a "warframization" of Remember Me Combo Lab, which is not a really free system - yes, you can design good looking combos, but variability not always the same as freedom. In Fight/Combo Lab, you put together a possible combination, which you have to memorize, if it's not working, or just you don't like it, you rearrange, and try again.

 

In a true freeform melee combo system, moves will be based on rhythm, intuition, reflexes - your skills.

 

I prefer Oni style more (well, it's old, but really awesome), where combos are logical and rooted in movement keys. If you want the game to be skill based instead of grind, the moves should be available from the very first time. Levelling/upgrading a melee weapon should only mean that you can make more damage with it, reach higher speed, use less stamina, do more powerful blocking, even in coherence with your warframe's main theme (flaming sword for Ember, which increases status chance on it), and so on.

 

Currently warframe has stances in a way, because the attack will be different if you're sliding, wallrunning, jumping, falling, standing. Here's the skills I have developed (I'm sure you know them):

* jump + slide: this will normally do a flying kick, you can easily stun shield lancers with it for example

* jump + slide + attack: a spinning attack while flying

* slide + attack: sliding attack, a variation of the above

* fall (or jump) + attack: everybody knows this

 

And there are wallrun attacks, blocks and so on. I think this is basically good, and can be extended like in the video from the livestream you mentioned. Some weapons already has chained attacks, but I think it's just a matter of time when the combo chains will be implemented. Possibly it will come next week, I'm really excited about today's livestream, hopefully they will demo it.

 

Maybe they'll add dodging moves (double directional keys in UT games, anyone?), dodge / attack / blocking combinations, true attack chaining, not like in machete wraith, where you can't quit a chain, etc.

Edited December 13, 2013 by tmtke

[theGreatZamboni]

I think everybody else is writing here, except DE staff, can be considered doing this in their free time.

 

Look, as I said before, the system you outlined, is good in many ways - except that is not warframe, it's a mix from other shooters (where I don't like the millions of different attachments, while they are mostly just cosmetics) and some melee centered games, where the enemies aren't so numerous. Your Fight Lab is basically a "warframization" of Remember Me Combo Lab, which is not a really free system - yes, you can design good looking combos, but variability not always the same as freedom. In Fight/Combo Lab, you put together a possible combination, which you have to memorize, if it's not working, or just you don't like it, you rearrange, and try again.

 

In a true freeform melee combo system, moves will be based on rhythm, intuition, reflexes - your skills.

 

I prefer Oni style more (well, it's old, but really awesome), where combos are logical and rooted in movement keys. If you want the game to be skill based instead of grind, the moves should be available from the very first time. Levelling/upgrading a melee weapon should only mean that you can make more damage with it, reach higher speed, use less stamina, do more powerful blocking, even in coherence with your warframe's main theme (flaming sword for Ember, which increases status chance on it), and so on.

 

Currently warframe has stances in a way, because the attack will be different if you're sliding, wallrunning, jumping, falling, standing. Here's the skills I have developed (I'm sure you know them):

* jump + slide: this will normally do a flying kick, you can easily stun shield lancers with it for example

* jump + slide + attack: a spinning attack while flying

* slide + attack: sliding attack, a variation of the above

* fall (or jump) + attack: everybody knows this

 

And there are wallrun attacks, blocks and so on. I think this is basically good, and can be extended like in the video from the livestream you mentioned. Some weapons already has chained attacks, but I think it's just a matter of time when the combo chains will be implemented. Possibly it will come next week, I'm really excited about today's livestream, hopefully they will demo it.

 

Maybe they'll add dodging moves (double directional keys in UT games, anyone?), dodge / attack / blocking combinations, true attack chaining, not like in machete wraith, where you can't quit a chain, etc.

 

I stated before the melee is really a toss up. The Fight Lab is there because it is an extension of work they already have done. If something better comes along, fine. But giving choice and utility to melee while still remaining accessible like the current melee was the driving force behind the concept. While you can cite other melee systems that work well, they need to work within the confines of what currently exists. You mention how my ideas are a mix from other games, then claim you like Oni's melee system. So is there a double standard? But given what has been showcased and what we currently have, the Fight Lab seems entirely possible. If it were the only part of my idea put into place, the game would still improve drastically. It would cut out a huge chunk of mods from the tables and make melee useful. Being able to heal yourself, replenish energy or deal massive damage by creating your own moves sounds far better than just spamming charge attacks. While they are working to fix that, I again remind you my Fight Lab is an extension of what they showed. Your parting words about dodging moves could easily exist in the Fight Lab. Based on your words, you seem more hung up on the fact that you didn't like Remember Me so you think it won't work. If you think it could work and just don't like it, I challenge you to tell me why. I understand why people would want a straight melee stance, in essence equipping your sword like you do your primary or sidearm. But that slows down melee. By keeping it single button, with timed presses that you can control what the outcome is, it increases functionality.

 

As for memorization and trying out new things: Would you rather have flat OP mods you know to equip on every melee weapon? Or would you rather have the playing field balanced when it comes to picking the melee you like and tweaking it to fit your style of play? Currently with mods it promotes railroad builds. The Fight Lab eliminates that, adds utility and even caters to people who cannot be bothered to make real combos. In fact it rewards players just the same for not making combos. As I state int he OP, if all you want to do is mash E, just build all damage strikes. The idea of memorization is a non-issue, but I can understand where you would see it as a problem. I have yet to add the image where it showcases your combo progress on screen. I will add this image today. I am sorry for the confusion.

 

Here is where admittedly my issue comes in and maybe you have an answer. If you have multiple combos that start with a single strike, how do you tell which one is activated? My only solution would be to lock what the starting strike is or base it on movement. I am rather surprised no one has brought up this issue, as it is the only one I really can find with my system (rather than taste). It can be done, but with not much time as of late I have yet to put any thought into it.

 

As for you post at the top of the page, I have explained to you why I feel those changes would not work. Because they would leave behind other issues. Where as a complete overhaul designed to removed these issues, would be more likely to create a sustainable foundation. You are looking for a simple fix, which I did as well. If you read the post below, I again explain the issue with your suggestions. They are not comprehensive enough.

 

If you created specific slots for certain mods, farming for drops would remain the focus. If you tied mods to mastery rank, that would not stop stagnation and power creep as ideas begin to run thin. Retaining the Mod Card System is to maintain the decline of Warframe.

Edited December 13, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[theGreatZamboni]

I can see you dont accept other opinions than the ones that coincides with yours. Fact is i read your OP  x2 times already .

.You dont want to belive me thats your problem, but i suggest you stop with failed assumptions. 

You dont like other opinions and discussion of your ideas , again your problem.  

I for one had an open mind and considered your ideas also considering multiple solutions to problems you stated. 

As i can see you have not , discrediting or calling them "erroneous" ,"off base" & "incorrect" with no real basis. 

 

You are wrong yet again in the assumption of "I dont like it" as i stated in both my posts that there are things i liked and agree on and things i didint like and disagree.Giving constructive feedback. Everyone can read it.

"too much work " again is faulty , since i stated that i doubt they will implement grate change considering a finantial point of view and other commitments. You misread . 

Furthermore why would you assume i have the slightest interest of "deflecting" your ideas ? Simply put i just gave you feedback , showing my oppinion. 

 

 

So ill send you my skype id so you wont have to make failed accusations and you can explain away your vision on fixing the gameplay. 

Ill be sure to show you my point of view and we can talk why i said your sulution has some kinks and has used systems form other games.

 

The kinks you refer to are non-issues. If you have new ones, ones that have not been weighed and contemplated already: by all means. But as it stands, your issues stem from poor formation of your argument and misrepresenting the initial statement. If you have read the OP and the entirety of the thread, you will find your issues have been addressed. As it stands, you are continually misrepresenting my argument further. There is nothing wrong with taking ideas from other games. Your need to talk with me privately on Skype to outline this is not real criticism, when on the very first page of the thread I address this. Which leads me to believe you really have no grasp of what I am telling you. So once more, if you would like me to point out what I am finding so disparaging about your comments, I will tell you. But I recommenced just taking the time to read the entire thread, not just the OP. You are seemingly becoming upset due to the fact that you are failing to get a point across, one you may better articulate with actual words and not text. But as it stands, my previous replies to you have fallen on deaf ears. So one more time here it is:

 

I understand what you are saying. But your critiques are not only based on poor comprehension of the material in question, but lack real substance in terms of addressing any issues. Claims you make about the change being too drastic have already been discussed, as well as other qualms. Clearly what you see to be faulty, others have seen. But the proposal currently being scrutinized has been constructed with care, as to address most issues people are claiming to have. Detractors are finding these to be issues as they have failed to understand the post in every aspect. While things were purposefully left vague, I did so for a reason. In fact I state that much of what I speak of is vague as going into great would expand an already lengthy post. I have responded to the vagueness with several posts, ones I have passed onto you. I have also suggested you re-read the entire thread to attempt to stop this cycle of false critique. To say I do not understand what implementing this system would entail is a falsehood. I do understand the first reaction would be for minor tweaks to an existing system before one would decided to toss the whole thing out.

 

But understand this: My ideas do not get rid of concepts, but rather expand and retool them. If you were to just tweak the Mod Card System, issues would remain. The Mod Card System plagues every aspect of the game. But I will again humor you.

 

If you created specific slots for certain mods, farming for drops would remain the focus. If you tied mods to mastery rank, that would not stop stagnation and power creep as ideas begin to run thin. Retaining the Mod Card System is to maintain the decline of Warframe. I assure you that the first things I considered were reworking what we have, but I threw out the proverbial kitchen sink with good reason. Even with a massive or minor retooling, you cannot maintain the system. If you constantly have to make adjustments to what essentially is the core of the game, you can never move on to developing compelling content. The Skill Tree reuses powers and functions of mods, but creates a means of real player progression with the ability to alter their powers to fit how they play. Guns would be substantially more powerful promoting  real choice through limitation and asymmetrical design. The proposed melee system is an extension of what is already being done. If you bothered to watch the video I linked in the OP, you would see how real my system is. It is more than charge attack spamming and offers utility, as well as choice. You can bicker about logistics all you want, but the fact remains. If the systems I proposed were set in place tomorrow, the game would be better. Even with the lazy enemy design and dull missions, the act of shooting, using melee and powers would be more compelling. You may be playing devil's advocate, but it does nothing to promote a real discussion. You say I want to make the game DMC, when I state the exact opposite in the OP. I showcase a means to use new animations they are working on in a compelling manner. I reintroduce cooperation through weapon choice and power customization. If you bothered to read the thread these "issues" you are having are either already addressed, accounted for and in some cases answered.

 

So here, for the sake of repetition, have some quotes:

 

 

I think my post answers your own question about specialized weapons. But I may need to make it more clear.

 

As for the melee rework, yes it is. Remember Me was one of the worst games I ever played. But I play games to learn about design as much as I do to have fun. Remember Me took ideas from God Hand, as well as a number of other games. The only things I took away from it that were positive being the combo system and running animations. The rest was offensively bad. Not because it borrowed from other games, but because it did it so poorly. Those reasons coupled with terrible writing made me resent playing the game. Until I thought to use the combo system as a way to fix Warframe.

 

Precepts are taken straight from RIFT, if you must know.

 

 

People who say this is too much work or would cause unrest would have a point, if DE weren't calling this a Beta. I am of the mindset that this is most certainly not a Beta, but an Alpha with a cash shop. The way a Free2Play game should work, is not to nickle and dime the player to the point of getting in the way of their experience; but to give players the chance to show their support by purchasing content that is supplemental to the overall experience. DE are a games studio. This is not too much work. What it is, is admitting they were wrong. I am most certainly not infallible nor is my idea, but given the direction of the game and the proposed concepts on display; my systems work to better fit the style of game. People will still be able to buy guns, skins, Warframes, Void keys, Sentinels. I highly doubt a large amount of their revenue comes from Mod Packs. This doesn't even address the equally as troublesome idea of item slots. When you would rather exploit your players for money, over providing them an experience they enjoy, well then maybe you need to rethink your career path. I'm sure a number of game publishers are hiring.

 

 

To think his suggestion has not crossed my mind is incorrect. The reason his suggestion was not expanded upon by me is simply because it retains mods. Mods will still be in the RNG, sharing space with materials and other drops. If you move the customization of your modifiers to a craft able and more attainable system, you once again put the focus on how you play rather than what mods you do or do not have. Most of the counter points being made are addressed, though not in big red text. I made sure to be clear in the reasoning behind why I would go to such lengths to showcase this point. His main point is "Why just not make mod slots". Ok, then you still have to farm excessively. Some farming will be inherent, but to make it the focus is ludicrous. His suggestion of awarding mods based on Mastery Rank, is in my idea. Its called the Precepts. Except you never have to forgo using one of your powers for something like Redirection. Which cycles back to "make mod slots". But again, we are trying to remove excess from the RNG and refocus on the gameplay.

 

As for this being "too big a step to take". I have already explained why something akin to this is necessary in other posts, in this thread. If not exactly my suggestion, something needs to be done. What Notion suggests is only a band aid on a bleeding heart. My suggestion is invasive surgery, that fixes the problem.

 

And finally, again:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1691672

Edited December 13, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[nightrunner_ks]

Zamboni you are too based. I support this 100%. Your effort means a lot to us.

[tmtke]

I stated before the melee is really a toss up. The Fight Lab is there because it is an extension of work they already have done. If something better comes along, fine. But giving choice and utility to melee while still remaining accessible like the current melee was the driving force behind the concept. While you can cite other melee systems that work well, they need to work within the confines of what currently exists. You mention how my ideas are a mix from other games, then claim you like Oni's melee system. So is there a double standard?

 

No, maybe I wasn't clear about that. It's not a problem if a designer takes ideas from another games. While I didn't play with Remember Me, I checked a lot of vids on youtube to get the concept you're talking about (because I care, and as you, have a lot of ideas all the time). My only argument is that you nearly copied it. Now, I don't want to state that it's a bad system, I just don't like the idea of the prebuilt combos. I only mentioned Oni as a basic concept for movement, not the combo system itself. There was a predefined set of combos, which were unlocked as you progressed, but it's not good for warframe.

 

Being able to heal yourself, replenish energy or deal massive damage by creating your own moves sounds far better than just spamming charge attacks.

 

-snip-

 

Your parting words about dodging moves could easily exist in the Fight Lab. Based on your words, you seem more hung up on the fact that you didn't like Remember Me so you think it won't work. If you think it could work and just don't like it, I challenge you to tell me why.

 

While warframe is not a realistic game by any means, this would destroy a lot of concepts already in the game. Trinity will be useless, health/energy orbs, team heal will be more obsolete, and I don't really know, how much it will impact the whole thing. I probably would suggest that these powers might be kept for the same utility based frames, as Volt can have electric melee attack, Trinity can replenish health with melee attack, or Vauban can hung up a stunned enemy instead of single knockback (integrated in status chance).

 

I understand why people would want a straight melee stance, in essence equipping your sword like you do your primary or sidearm. But that slows down melee. By keeping it single button, with timed presses that you can control what the outcome is, it increases functionality.

 

We are on the same boat here, keep it simple.

 

As for memorization and trying out new things: Would you rather have flat OP mods you know to equip on every melee weapon? Or would you rather have the playing field balanced when it comes to picking the melee you like and tweaking it to fit your style of play? Currently with mods it promotes railroad builds. The Fight Lab eliminates that, adds utility and even caters to people who cannot be bothered to make real combos. In fact it rewards players just the same for not making combos. As I state int he OP, if all you want to do is mash E, just build all damage strikes. The idea of memorization is a non-issue, but I can understand where you would see it as a problem.

Yes, and no. I would prefer item level based increasing of base stats in some form. It can be done via distributing XPs more on skill base, or it can be done via crafting mods into your item, but having a minimum and maximum level on each stat. So mod slots can be kept for utility stuff and elemental combinations. I wrote 2 posts about the various ideas I have. Of course I prefer to customize my build, but as I had to learn for example Q3A movement (bunnyhopping, strafe jumps, rocket jumps and so on), the customization should not invalidate skill. If someone isn't skilled or interested enough to play melee/parkour style, then I won't let him use fancy combinations (sorry, maybe this sounds a bit rude, but skill have to mean something).

 

Here is where admittedly my issue comes in and maybe you have an answer. If you have multiple combos that start with a single strike, how do you tell which one is activated? My only solution would be to lock what the starting strike is or base it on movement. I am rather surprised no one has brought up this issue, as it is the only one I really can find with my system (rather than taste). It can be done, but with not much time as of late I have yet to put any thought into it.

A suggest that it should work like a word filter system. You have movements, like normal attack (A), charged attack ©, movement keys (L,R,F,B), jump (J) and crouch (D), and you have combinations like:

1. C, A, A

2. D, A, J, A

3. C, J, A

4. A, A, A

5. C, A, F, A

 

When you press C, option 2. and 4 will be removed from the possibilities. When you press A, only 1. and 5. remains, and so on. Might not be useful in this case to display the following combinations. This is why I prefer a more open system, where movements are defined by shorter combinations, and can be chained together (this is where stuff like Melee Channel can have a huge impact on your actions). Maybe it's just because I'm a dancer, and having a lot of knowledge in improvisation, balance, movement, etc.

 

As for you post at the top of the page, I have explained to you why I feel those changes would not work. Because they would leave behind other issues. Where as a complete overhaul designed to removed these issues, would be more likely to create a sustainable foundation. You are looking for a simple fix, which I did as well. If you read the post below, I again explain the issue with your suggestions. They are not comprehensive enough.

I don't think that you read my 2 threads thoroughly, which were created after that post, while I didn't want to pollute yours further (linked at top of page 27).

 

If you created specific slots for certain mods, farming for drops would remain the focus. If you tied mods to mastery rank, that would not stop stagnation and power creep as ideas begin to run thin. Retaining the Mod Card System is to maintain the decline of Warframe.

 

Farming for drops will be always present. Humans are generally collectors, some are obsessive about it. I have no problem with that as far as I can play without having all - which is perfectly manageable in this very state of the game. I don't have maxed Serration or Hornet Strike, even maxed Redirection, but I can manage on any level I want to play on. I just like to remove musthave mods as you do, but not at the cost of reinventing the wheel. So, the target is the same, but from a different viewpoint.

[Rajko]

@tGZamboni, I never heard your feedback/response to post #416 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1693565

 

Sum up of that post is:

 

"Your rework makes sense to me to as a means to an end, but I feel that it needs to more directly address the question of what happens next.  There has to be a gameplay delivery mechanism to replace the grind for progression element that is currently acting like a placeholder.  It's not because the suggestion is impossible, but because it doesn't take us from where Warframe is to where it needs to be to accomplish your goal."

 

It's kind of ironic that as I kept rethinking it, I realized that I feel your rework doesn't go far enough, considering my first reaction was that it is simply too much work to be successful.  I eventually realized that it's pointless to derail the thread with implementation concerns, and much more meaningful to discuss the concept itself.  It might be helpful to direct those concerns regarding implementation or complexity to another thread eventually, though.

 

Still, I'd like your response to my feedback, just because it's been an interesting discussion.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Rajko

[theGreatZamboni]

 

@tGZamboni, I never heard your feedback/response to post #416 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/?p=1693565

 

Sum up of that post is:

 

Your rework makes sense to me to as a means to an end, but I feel that it needs to more directly address the question of what happens next.  There has to be a gameplay delivery mechanism to replace the grind for progression element that is currently acting like a placeholder.  It's not because the suggestion is impossible, but because it doesn't take us from where Warframe is to where it needs to be to accomplish your goal.  

 

 

Warframe is going no where. Are you seriously asking me to design the whole game, hypothetically? Is not providing a foundation that is rock solid, despite people just "not liking it" not enough? There is no reason for me to go any further than I intend to with these threads. The only reason I would do so is if DE implemented these systems. You are now asking me to create an entire game now. The idea was to give DE the foundation so they could then build from it. Someone made an end-game thread. There is so much you could do once these systems are in place. Are you really asking me to make an entire game, hypothetically? The ideal and simplest answer is: Create game modes that test the player in meaningful ways, that give context to their actions outside of rewards and just make something that is fun. What do you expect from me really? If you are asking me to design the rest of the game, I guess I can humor you. But I am not the only one with ideas.  I do feel I have proposed the best system in terms of core game mechanics as well as sustainability while restoring meaningful progression and choice. But that does not mean I can solve the problem of poor enemy AI or lack of dedicated servers for dojos. Again repeating myself: Are you asking me to design the rest of the game?

 

Seriously if want an idea of what else I would do, I put links in the OP at the very bottom. Maybe it is because I have yet to sleep, but I am just not able to answer that question right now.

Edited December 13, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Volthorne]

No, maybe I wasn't clear about that. It's not a problem if a designer takes ideas from another games. While I didn't play with Remember Me, I checked a lot of vids on youtube to get the concept you're talking about (because I care, and as you, have a lot of ideas all the time). My only argument is that you nearly copied it. Now, I don't want to state that it's a bad system, I just don't like the idea of the prebuilt combos. I only mentioned Oni as a basic concept for movement, not the combo system itself. There was a predefined set of combos, which were unlocked as you progressed, but it's not good for warframe.

How is it not good for Warframe? I would go so far as to say almost anything would be better than what we have now. I don't even bother to use melee 90% of the time on anything that's higher than level 25 because it's not even 1/10th as effective as a bullet to the face.

 

While warframe is not a realistic game by any means, this would destroy a lot of concepts already in the game. Trinity will be useless, health/energy orbs, team heal will be more obsolete, and I don't really know, how much it will impact the whole thing. I probably would suggest that these powers might be kept for the same utility based frames, as Volt can have electric melee attack, Trinity can replenish health with melee attack, or Vauban can hung up a stunned enemy instead of single knockback (integrated in status chance).

You could make the restored health/energy REALLY small (as low as 5-10 points, perhaps?) so that Team Heals and Trinity are there for the "Oh sh*t we're about to die, heal us!" moments. Health and energy orbs I wouldn't be sad to see go. As far as I'm concerned, energy should already be regenerating passively, and each of those stupid orbs I see drop makes me a little bit mad because it could have been resources or ammo or money instead. And what would be the point of giving Trinity the ability to restore her own hp with melee attacks? She's already got a healing skill AND invulnerability. It's pointless.

 

Yes, and no. I would prefer item level based increasing of base stats in some form. It can be done via distributing XPs more on skill base, or it can be done via crafting mods into your item, but having a minimum and maximum level on each stat. So mod slots can be kept for utility stuff and elemental combinations. I wrote 2 posts about the various ideas I have. Of course I prefer to customize my build, but as I had to learn for example Q3A movement (bunnyhopping, strafe jumps, rocket jumps and so on), the customization should not invalidate skill. If someone isn't skilled or interested enough to play melee/parkour style, then I won't let him use fancy combinations (sorry, maybe this sounds a bit rude, but skill have to mean something).

That is... exactly what Zamboni is suggesting, only in a different form. No, seriously, go read his weapons customization again. It is literally what you are asking for but named "attachments" instead of "mods".

 

A suggest that it should work like a word filter system. You have movements, like normal attack (A), charged attack ©, movement keys (L,R,F,B), jump (J) and crouch (D), and you have combinations like:

1. C, A, A

2. D, A, J, A

3. C, J, A

4. A, A, A

5. C, A, F, A

 

When you press C, option 2. and 4 will be removed from the possibilities. When you press A, only 1. and 5. remains, and so on. Might not be useful in this case to display the following combinations. This is why I prefer a more open system, where movements are defined by shorter combinations, and can be chained together (this is where stuff like Melee Channel can have a huge impact on your actions). Maybe it's just because I'm a dancer, and having a lot of knowledge in improvisation, balance, movement, etc.

I used to play a game with a system similar to this and it was infuriatingly hard to chain from one combo attack into the next, as the timing had to be immaculate. If you were off by so much as a millisecond you might only land half of the next chain.

 

 

I don't think that you read my 2 threads thoroughly, which were created after that post, while I didn't want to pollute yours further (linked at top of page 27).

I tried reading them, and they sort of sounded like... well, nonsensical. Especially the one you deemed "hardcore", which had the added bonus of being confusing as hell. Heck, I read through it twice and still couldn't make heads or tails of what you wanted to happen. Something about making the Systems, Helmet and Chassis each have their own mod slots and point pool, yet sharing a global pool at the same time? It made my head hurt, which is usually hard to do.

[Rajko]

:Are you asking me to design the rest of the game?

 

 

 

 

Not really, no.  But given the scope of your suggestion, I'm surprised at your response.  You've come along and spent an incredible amount of time proposing a partial conversion concept that removes the existing reasons to play the game, and yet you stop short of providing anything to replace them, and your OP skimmed past the point entirely.  

 

Without addressing that point, the entire concept is incomplete.  It might have some value to the devs as commentary, but as a proposal for changes to be made it doesn't hold water.  

 

A re-work proposal needs to exchange equal value with the replaced mechanisms, and yours doesn't do that.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Rajko

[theGreatZamboni]

Not really, no.  But given the scope of your suggestion, I'm surprised at your response.  You've come along and spent an incredible amount of time proposing a partial conversion concept that removes the existing reasons to play the game, and yet you stop short of providing anything to replace them, and your OP skimmed past the point entirely.  Without addressing that point, the entire concept is incomplete.  It might have some value to the devs as commentary, but as a proposal it doesn't hold water.  Just implying that the way is clear to add rewarding gameplay afterwards doesn't work.  A re-work proposal needs to exchange equal value with the replaced mechanisms, and yours doesn't do that.

 

Fine. You want me to design a whole game, you got it. Lore, pacing, the entire skill trees detailed. If that is what it will take, I will do it. But to not see just to potential a system like this brings seems beyond me, something people have been ready to point out frequently regarding my responses in this thread. Because it really does escape me how without an entire roadmap you cannot see the merit in what this could achieve. You are trying to appease me by falsely saying you like it, but claim it would be in vain. What I can only assume is you do not have faith in DE to follow through, so you are asking me to do is all the work. I think history can repeat itself. The only reason The Darkness II was any good is because it was an already existing IP. They were able to work around a foundation. While the first and second games contrast in style and mechanics, they made a competent game because a large part of the work was taken out of it.

 

You now just edited your post to say it does not equal what I stand to take away. When it does more than the current system ever could. If you are saying the removal of treadmill design and railroad builds is not enough of an improvement. That I need to suggest replacement content for brutal and oppressive grind, I really don't know what to tell you. Once the shackles are off, you can do whatever you want. But if I have to design the whole @(*()$ game to get the point across, I will do exactly what people are accusing me of, which is to "tell DE how to make the game". When this is merely a proposal to make a foundation for content they could then create and shape. If you are saying my idea is flawed because I have to replace the grind, because grind was the game; that speaks volumes to the flaws of the current system.

Edited December 13, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[lostinrehab]

As others have mentioned before you're system lacks a GRIND. Actually I suppose you could make warframe and weapon levels brutal to compensate but then you take away the ability to easily switch between frames and weapons.

Let me make this clear any PVE focused long term game needs a GRIND other wise once you will not get player retention. Look at

The mod system acts as the main grind in this game and allows players to retain much of their power throughout the game even while switching frames and weapons.

[theGreatZamboni]

As others have mentioned before you're system lacks a GRIND. Actually I suppose you could make warframe and weapon levels brutal to compensate but then you take away the ability to easily switch between frames and weapons.

Let me make this clear any PVE focused long term game needs a GRIND other wise once you will not get player retention. Look at

The mod system acts as the main grind in this game and allows players to retain much of their power throughout the game even while switching frames and weapons.

 

I can't do this anymore.

 

I really cannot explain how ridiculous this is. While I do not agree with TB all the time, this really applies to this situation.

 

 

And this little part here:

 

 

"Utterly bizarre, random card game model."

Edited December 13, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Rajko]

You are missing what I'm saying.  I like what you are proposing quite a lot.  It has a lot of potential and is even elegant.  I'm not in the camp that believes it's the only way for Warframe to be better or to survive, but I appreciate the quality of it, and I think it neatly and completely removes the inherent issues that come with the mod system.  If that is as far as the goal of it takes you, okay.  We both agree that it's effective at accomplishing that, at the least.

 

To clarify:  You put a lot of work into uprooting the mod system to replace it with one that provides progression based on playing the game. Experiencing the gameplay provides the progression directly.  

 

That's a good goal in and of itself, but your proposal also removes the reason people are still playing after 500 hours, the grind for mods.  There's nothing in your suggestion that directly provides anything to replace that.  Whether it's you or DE who replaces it, someone must if the concept were to be successful.  

 

You've got hundreds of upvotes telling you that people appreciate your ideas, so why not carry through?  You are also seeking constructive criticism, and there is mine.

[Rajko]

As others have mentioned before you're system lacks a GRIND. Actually I suppose you could make warframe and weapon levels brutal to compensate but then you take away the ability to easily switch between frames and weapons.

Let me make this clear any PVE focused long term game needs a GRIND other wise once you will not get player retention. Look at

The mod system acts as the main grind in this game and allows players to retain much of their power throughout the game even while switching frames and weapons.

 

 

I don't think that's actually true.  Other things can replace grinding for things, and be more rewarding.  Player created content, story elements, endless other things.

 

The thing that is really fantastic about the suggestion is that it's so willing to fully uproot the mechanism that allows Warframe to be lazy and devolve onto grinding.

[tmtke]

How is it not good for Warframe? I would go so far as to say almost anything would be better than what we have now. I don't even bother to use melee 90% of the time on anything that's higher than level 25 because it's not even 1/10th as effective as a bullet to the face.

 

 

It's true, I see it as there are a lot of problems with melee weapon balancing. I saw a guy with a galatine killing Phorid with a few swings. But this doesn't have to do anything with melee system in general.

 

You could make the restored health/energy REALLY small (as low as 5-10 points, perhaps?) so that Team Heals and Trinity are there for the "Oh sh*t we're about to die, heal us!" moments. Health and energy orbs I wouldn't be sad to see go. As far as I'm concerned, energy should already be regenerating passively, and each of those stupid orbs I see drop makes me a little bit mad because it could have been resources or ammo or money instead. And what would be the point of giving Trinity the ability to restore her own hp with melee attacks? She's already got a healing skill AND invulnerability. It's pointless.

Point taken about Trinity, but there should be utilities instead of straight autoheal. I pretty much enjoy the games where the situation gets problematic. Removing the orbs, however, would be nice, but they have to be replaced, because of the enormous energy need of some missions.

 

That is... exactly what Zamboni is suggesting, only in a different form. No, seriously, go read his weapons customization again. It is literally what you are asking for but named "attachments" instead of "mods".

Then it can be done without changing mods to attachments? Is it more easier to do in terms of amount of work required on DE side, and less confusion to the playerbase? That was exactly my intent.

 

I used to play a game with a system similar to this and it was infuriatingly hard to chain from one combo attack into the next, as the timing had to be immaculate. If you were off by so much as a millisecond you might only land half of the next chain.

I don't talk about milliseconds, there should be a fair threshold for that, which needs playtesting a fine tuning. And if the movement is not chained, you lose only some bonuses, not the full combo. Imagine it as a logical chain, not a predefined one. You move forward, then press attack - a forward moving animation playing. If you press attack again inside the time treshold, the attack will be continued with another animation, and added damage. If you do charge attack with the same timing you got again a different visual representation and damage bonus. These can be combined with movement keys and so on.

 

I tried reading them, and they sort of sounded like... well, nonsensical. Especially the one you deemed "hardcore", which had the added bonus of being confusing as hell. Heck, I read through it twice and still couldn't make heads or tails of what you wanted to happen. Something about making the Systems, Helmet and Chassis each have their own mod slots and point pool, yet sharing a global pool at the same time? It made my head hurt, which is usually hard to do.

Thank you for that. Maybe my english is not on that level that I can make myself perfectly understandable in more difficult situations. However, the basic mechanics behind that idea is: you get XP for various reasons, bonus XP for exceptional performance, which can be distributed to item parts. On these item parts you can fill up mods with this XP without relying on fusion core drops, and leveling up equipment also means base stat improvements. The base stat min-max values can be enough to do fair damage in case of weapons, therefore (nerfed) must-have mods should advance them still, but you can go without them, making utility mods reliable. Regarding mastery, now that is a cumulative pool as far as I know, and I'm okay with that. I just suggested that mastery rank test should be split up for a few difficulty levels with appealing rewards.

Edited December 13, 2013 by tmtke

[Duralumin]

As others have mentioned before you're system lacks a GRIND. Actually I suppose you could make warframe and weapon levels brutal to compensate but then you take away the ability to easily switch between frames and weapons.

Let me make this clear any PVE focused long term game needs a GRIND other wise once you will not get player retention. Look at

The mod system acts as the main grind in this game and allows players to retain much of their power throughout the game even while switching frames and weapons.

Please

Please

PLEEEASE

PLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEASE

 

Do NOT ADVOCATE GRIND IN ANY FORM

Grind is a negative word; denoting a repetitive, monotonous activity. If a game requires that, it actually decreases player retention, believe it or not.

 

Do not misunderstand me, I know that a primarily PvE multiplayer game has to have some form of activity to keep players coming back. Fun gameplay and customisation is the solution, not grinding.

 

If you must add some form of grind, keep it short, reliable and keep the gameplay fun enough to prevent players from getting bored quickly.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Duralumin

[theGreatZamboni]

You are missing what I'm saying.  I like what you are proposing quite a lot.  It has a lot of potential and is even elegant.  I'm not in the camp that believes it's the only way for Warframe to be better or to survive, but I appreciate the quality of it, and I think it neatly and completely removes the inherent issues that come with the mod system.  If that is as far as the goal of it takes you, okay.  We both agree that it's effective at accomplishing that, at the least.

 

To clarify:  You put a lot of work into uprooting the mod system to replace it with one that provides progression based on playing the game. Experiencing the gameplay provides the progression directly.  

 

That's a good goal in and of itself, but your proposal also removes the reason people are still playing after 500 hours, the grind for mods.  There's nothing in your suggestion that directly provides anything to replace that.  Whether it's you or DE who replaces it, someone must if the concept were to be successful.  

 

You've got hundreds of upvotes telling you that people appreciate your ideas, so why not carry through?  You are also seeking constructive criticism, and there is mine.

 

Well with this clarified, I would like to think that a majority of people don't play for grind. They are infatuated with the game and saw potential. They keep playing because of the potential. The Art Direction combined with the promise of greatness is what has kept me here. The now fleeting sense that DE would actually make good on these promises of grandeur is what remains. It has become a sick cycle where I look at this game and just feel deep disappointment. Yes there are people who play for grind, but if that is why you play a game, for the act of repeating un fun actions...You can mask grind. So the people who thrive on it and those who want to experience compelling and contextual scenarios can be happy. Playing a game shouldn't feel like slamming your head against a wall. Because this game is not an open world MMO, the novelty of exploration is lost. The social aspect is lacking. There is nothing to make the grind palatable. I have seen everything the game has to offer. The gameplay itself has not been rewarding for months. There will still be grind, in a more manageable sense. Collecting all the attachments, Warframes, guns and melee. You could even add something else down the line. This foundation affords them that chance, to add in ways that are not just artificial extensions meant to slow down the players experiencing of the content, because quite frankly there is very little.

Edited December 13, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Rajko]

 

You now just edited your post to say it does not equal what I stand to take away. When it does more than the current system ever could. If you are saying the removal of treadmill design and railroad builds is not enough of an improvement. That I need to suggest replacement content for brutal and oppressive grind, I really don't know what to tell you. Once the shackles are off, you can do whatever you want. But if I have to design the whole @(*()$ game to get the point across, I will do exactly what people are accusing me of, which is to "tell DE how to make the game". When this is merely a proposal to make a foundation for content they could then create and shape. If you are saying my idea is flawed because I have to replace the grind, because grind was the game; that speaks volumes to the flaws of the current system.

 

I am in fact saying that the grind is the game.  And I am also saying that it is horribly flawed.  Everyone who is saying that Warframe needs an endgame is saying that the grind is a stand in for 'game'.  Even if we all are saying it in different ways, or suggesting different solutions.

 

Removing the crutch that allows that grind to be the focus of the game is very desirable.  On it's own, it won't result in a game worth playing.

 

It's not necessary for you to provide anything further, but without that, this concept will not be more attractive than other concepts that replace the grind with gameplay, even if they leave the grind for mods intact.  

 

The real appeal of your concept to me, is that by tearing out the mod element, it saves the game from implementing lazy gameplay over top of the grind component, rather than in place of it.  I'd be in favor of any concept that could successfully add rewarding gameplay while removing unrewarding grind. 

 

I've said before that your concept stands on it's own just fine and doesn't require defense.  I'm not trying to agitate you by asking for what the next steps might be. 

[ziggybogidou]

I don't post on the forums, and I'm a pretty new player anyway. But a reshaping of basic customization mechanics is certainly something I would fully support if DE were to implement it. While I don't think the proposed systems are perfect, they provide a solid base to replace the mod system which I do think is systematically broken for the reasons outlined. 

 

The OP had a lot of thought put into it and you clearly want the game to be better for everyone rather than squandered potential. Thank you for that at least. 

[Rajko]

Well with this clarified, I would like to think that a majority of people don't play for grind. They are infatuated with the game and saw potential. They keep playing because of the potential. The Art Direction combined with the promise of greatness is what has kept me here. The now fleeting sense that DE would actually make good on these promises of grandeur is what remains. It has become a sick cycle where I look at this game and just feel deep disappointment. Yes there are people who play for grind, but if that is why you play a game, for the act of repeating un fun actions...You can mask grind. So the people who thrive on it and those who want to experience compelling and contextual scenarios can be happy. Playing a game shouldn't feel like slamming your head against a wall. Because this game is not an open world MMO, the novelty of exploration is lost. The social aspect is lacking. There is nothing to make the grind palatable. I have seen everything the game has to offer. The gameplay itself has not been rewarding for months. There will still be grind, in a more manageable sense. Collecting all the attachments, Warframes, guns and melee. You could even add something else down the line. This foundation affords them that chance, to add in ways that are not just artificial extensions meant to slow down the players experiencing of the content, because quite frankly there is very little.

 

I would also like to think so, but I suspect that it is not that way.  I'm still playing after 750 hours for 2 reasons.  I really enjoy the art of the game, and I really enjoy playing co-operatively with my clan mate.  

 

Like you say, there's nothing else keeping me around, except for the hope that it develops into something greater than the sum of it's parts.  

 

I agree with you that your foundation won't remove the enjoyable grind aspects.  Just the horrible stand-in for gameplay grind.  

[lostinrehab]

I can't do this anymore.

 

I really cannot explain how ridiculous this is. While I do not agree with TB all the time, this really applies to this situation.

 

 

And this little part here:

 

 

"Utterly bizarre, random card game model."

As I said before with games that are designed to last long where people will put hundreds upon hundreds of hours into that are PVE focused/exclusive you have to have some sort of grind. The problem is how do you mask the grind or make it fun to keep people enjoying the game while they grind.

Forgive me as I haven't played a lot of games but please list any PVE game where constant content development and longevity are key that keeps people playing well past the 300-400 hour mark that does not have a grind or something you can monetize to sustain development.(I could have just said free to play...)

Grinds are necessary in these types of games.

Now you can argue that mission types need to be reworked to be more enjoyable but define enjoyable.

[Rajko]

I see what you are saying, but there's working towards a known and certain goal, and then there's grinding in the hopes of doing the same thing long enough that the result changes.

 

EVE online for example requires an amazing amount of resource collection, but it's not really grinding, because you know exactly what you are going to get from the asteroid, for example.  It can also be a lot of fun to get a mining team together and strip mine belt after belt in risky space.

 

This would still have that sort of thing, in that you concoct a plan for your frames and level them up to achieve those goals, etc, but the rng-based grind for progression would transition, leaving the enjoyable stuff.  The enjoyable type of progression can be extended just by releasing new frames and gear.  

 

Those types of games that just progressively make things harder by increasing the difficulty of obtaining them (like every tcg) ultimately feel empty, because the only reason to collect things or grind is to collect things.  

 

I almost want to refrain from calling that stuff grinding, because it conflates these two things, and makes it harder to talk about.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Rajko

[Mhyrria]

Mods should not be removed, granted I do agree with the op that some mods are a necessity in every build that it might as well not be there. The game needs a mixture of skill trees and mods as well. Having these two would give the game both horizontal and vertical progression, keys to having longevity in a game. And since this is a PVE game and free to play at that, it needs longevity. Unless of course, DE just wants to milk as much money as it can before selling the rights to some publisher like Nexon, then it will be rebranded and milked again. 

 

Let's take a look at perhaps the most successful PvE grind game to date, Diablo 2. To this day, it is still being played. For such a grindy game (if you plan to reach lv99), it has such surprisingly long shelf-life. It is prolly because it has a very well balanced vertical and horizontal progression. Vertical progression is your grind for the better gears/stat/drops/etc. Horizontal is your skill builds, comparables and stat distribution. Diablo 2 got the balance perfectly. Want to try Amazon and the Spear tree, go ahead. You grind for your gears to complement the tree. And when youve reached your finish line, you decided I ll reroll with a bow. New character, same class but now a different gameplay and different items to grind for.

 

Any dungeon crawler (let's face it, this kinda is one) should aim for that same balance. What we have now is so far from that. Devs said they want build diversity, but the current system does not allow it. If build diversity is defined as switching 3-4 mods to fight a different faction then that is prolly as diverse as using only blue or black pens. There is little to no horizontal progression in this game. Most weapons are just there to be leveled to 30 then sold. A multitude of mods that is not even worth getting. There are barely any comparables. The standard comparable being a mage's fireball against a warrior's stun against a thief's stealth backstab. None is objectively better than the other but one is subjectively best for a certain playstyle. In this game, you cannot compare Serration or element mods to reload speed or ammo capacity. Why bother increasing the speed of reloading when you can kill the entire room without reloading? With the current system, it is just min-maxing.

 

Give us a tree or some sort to work with, not just 3-4 mod slots to change depending on the faction. The more we theorycraft, the more we test and play, the more likely we will be spending more money.