A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Genesis5]

I couldn't agree more to this post

[Zirion_Bk]

 

I will be honest and say that I have no answer for forma or potatoes. If someone could come up with something that fit within the confines of my ideas, something that was unintrusive and not necessary but complimentary, that would be fine. But as it stands, forma is a bandaid to fix poor Warframe kit design and the shortcomings of the Mod Card System. It becomes necessary not for expressive builds, but for simply getting around shortcoming is the damage systems. Potatoes are the same. Really think, what would either of these two entities have to offer a system that holds nothing from the player, while still creating incentives for trade offs. Outside of a dishonest source of income, the forma and potatoes have done nothing but hampered the experience for players. Read here:

Well, how about formas allow you to redistribute the damage of a weapon to other damage types? For example, you could make a Braton that focuses fully on Slash, or a Boar Prime with ONLY puncture. It would give more choice to players without being too overpowered, as they would not be able to increase the total damage, only change how much damage it deals with the three damage types.

 

As for potatoes... Maybe they can allow you to increase one stat except damage, for example, Crit multiplier on a weapon or shield recharge on a warframe. Might be seen as mandatory, but I think that it wouldn't lessen the value it currently has by a lot and give players the possibility to further personalize their equipment. And of course, only one potato per weapon/frame, without ability to change the bonus or remove it.

[seiryuo]

Allow me to slice it

Well, how about formas allow you to redistribute the damage of a weapon to other damage types? For example, you could make a Braton that focuses fully on Slash, or a Boar Prime with ONLY puncture. It would give more choice to players without being too overpowered, as they would not be able to increase the total damage, only change how much damage it deals with the three damage types.

It' wont do since it would be one-use-to-win item - meaning no rushing with platinum -> no earn for DE.

[Phantasmo]

What this showcases is too much choice, for the wrong reasons. Just because someone can, doesn’t mean they should. What my skill tree does is eliminates bad choices, so what it comes down to is preference.

Stopped reading there.

 

I demand my right to make mistakes and learn from them, to test crazy builds or simply to have fun with the opposite of an überbuild.

I don't want anybody thinking for me ant taking decissions on my behalf.

 

If you don't like certain mods then don't use them, but don't try to take them from me. What if I do enjoy them?

 

My build is not your business.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Phantasmo

[Epsilon577]

As long as this was, it was worth reading. I agree, this needs to be implemented. This would make the game a lot more fun and interesting. Right now, combat is extremely boring, and the process of powering up your weapons and frames is tedious and doesn't make any sense. Implementing this should take a higher priority than anything else DE is working on. Seriously, rather than adding the occasional new warframe and weapon, why not make the possibilities diverse enough that it feels like each player has their own weapon. I'm sick of being forced to use the same mods. Why would you not use serration? Why do new players even have to obtain it? You can't play without it.

[theGreatZamboni]

Stopped reading there.

 

I demand my right to make mistakes and learn from them, to test crazy builds or simply to have fun with the opposite of an überbuild.

I don't want anybody thinking for me ant taking decissions on my behalf.

 

If you don't like certain mods then don't use them, but don't try to take them from me. What if I do enjoy them?

 

My build is not your business.

 

Am I on Tumblr?

[NikolaiLev]

This will NOT happen.

Discuss this post is way beyond pointless.

The system we have now works, so DO NOT CHANGE IT.

 

Changes in this big scale will lead to 2 possible result: very good OR very bad. There will be no middle ground.

You supports are asking DE to make a gambling worht millions. And the one want to make the gamble IS NOT the one who will take the risk.

 

Be realistic. If you don't like the system, just leave. No one is begging you to stay. But you cannot impules one company to put millions of dollars into a gambling and claim no responisibility for the result.

 

Just because it works doesn't mean it shouldn't improve.  Excessive conservatism gets us nowhere.  It can improve in small (and not so small ways) that don't impose a great deal of risk to DE.

 

Improving player choice and reducing grind will garner player goodwill.  There's nothing risky about that.

[ALIENwolve]

I'd like to play this guy's game instead.

[Zaranell]

I'd like to play this guy's game instead.

Seriously. I've got over 100 hours into Warframe as it is, so it's not like I haven't enjoyed it. However, I reached a point a while back when I realized that if I had every Warframe, gun, and mod card I wanted - all maxed out - I'd have no further goals. At that point, the simple act of playing random missions without any kind of reward lined up probably wouldn't be compelling enough to keep me playing. I'd be up against the same enemies in the same levels I've encountered hundreds (if not thousands) of times already, and I'd have the min/max efficiency to wreck everything without any effort. I'd get bored quite fast, and that leads me to conclude theGreatZamboni is right: the core game design is broken.

 

I still enjoy mowing down Grineer with my Boltor, cutting through hordes of Infested with each shot of my Dread, and popping toasters off Corpus heads. Shattering a whole line of enemies with Ice Wave is never going to get old, and Crush makes me feel like I'm Magneto. Warframe is perfectly capable of providing gameplay that's fun and engaging, but in its current state, the progression system can't sustain it. I should be looking forward to making a character build I know I'll eventually get within a certain amount of time, rather than thinking "This sounds like it would be a good idea, but it will only work if I can find two different mod cards that might take 20 hours to drop. Guess I've got grinding to do." I would absolutely love to see something similar to Zamboni's concepts; if not in this game, then in a hypothetical Warframe 2. As of now, in theory, a player could reach higher level content without Vitality/Redirection or any damage mod cards for their weapons ever dropping. If that were to happen, they'd have basically no chance of winning, regardless of how skilled they actually are at the game.

 

On the small chance it hasn't already been brought up in this thread, I personally think Path of Exile is an excellent example of progression done correctly: it provides the excitement of planning out a build in the skill tree, then developing it over time and putting it to the test against the game's various challenges. There's a guarantee that your character will (if planned well) be effective, even if you only use the skill gems that are provided as quest rewards and you only find mediocre loot. Once you've leveled the character up enough and completed the hardest difficulty, you can start running through randomly generated challenges, enjoying the core gameplay and seeing if you have the skills and preparation to deal with whatever curveballs the "Maps" throw at you. In Warframe, however, there's so many variables that you have almost no guarantee of ending up with something effective in higher level content, no matter how good you are as a player. Even if you do get to the point where you can solo T3 Survival missions for an hour and no longer need mod cards, what challenges/rewards can the game offer from that point on?

 

Again, I do like playing Warframe, but I hope it improves on a fundamental level, rather than just getting more weapons and frames that give us something to grind for.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Zaranell

[tmtke]

- snip -

 

Hmm, it's interesting how differently we play this game. I'm over 350 hours, and I don't have all the frames, neither all weapons or mods. But if I understand you correctly, you don't exactly have problem with the actual mod system, you have problems with the missing excitement after a certain amount of playtime. And I'm not exactly sure that I want to play survival for a hour alone (or endless defense, which is often called endgame, which is really stupid wording in an open ended game like this I think). I'd like to have more community events, which are a bit more complex (ehmm, a lot more complex, actually :)), than the "get n pieces/victories, and you'll have an exclusive item" types we had recently.

[Calayne]

I've been a supporter of Zamboni's concept for a while, and we finally have someone who understands the issue we have with endgame.

What is left to do when you have gathered everything, in a game that is about gathering things? Nothing much, apparently.

It was rightly pointed out that it's hard to cater to end game when your power levels all over the place because of RNG dependant power growth. To say nothing of the grind you need for mods as well.

Quite frankly, I still like this game cause I can play it with my brother, but I'd much prefer if they decided to move towards Zamboni's system. It'll allow better endgame content to be made, since we'll all be around a reasonably equal power level.

[Zirion_Bk]

As long as this was, it was worth reading. I agree, this needs to be implemented. This would make the game a lot more fun and interesting. Right now, combat is extremely boring, and the process of powering up your weapons and frames is tedious and doesn't make any sense. Implementing this should take a higher priority than anything else DE is working on. Seriously, rather than adding the occasional new warframe and weapon, why not make the possibilities diverse enough that it feels like each player has their own weapon. I'm sick of being forced to use the same mods. Why would you not use serration? Why do new players even have to obtain it? You can't play without it.

As much as I want the system to be implemented, it won't ever happen. Went through DE's Livestreams and they said that the mod card system is staying. Maybe we should focus on finding out ways to improve upon the mod system and make it more enjoyable? 

 

Also Zamboni, since no one apparently asked this yet: How, if implemented, would this system look in two years? What attachments could we see for weapons? What skills and perks could we see for Warframes? What could we see for melee?

[(PSN)cv3411]

Like this idea,well thought out and would make a Really strong foundation for this game but as for myself and like others, think its too late to implement this system. There has been a lot of grind and much money spent on the current system. To simply toss out mods or forma/potatoes is to throw out what many people have grinded hours for or even spent money on to attain. I would love to see a system like this come to fruition with this game but its just too late. As for improving on the current system it can be done to an extent and can become way more enjoyable than it is now. If this current system of grinding is to keep people going on this game then they need more innovation with story and missions and not just releasing new stuff all the time to increase more grind and collect shiny new primes or warframes and weapons just to have them nerfed or buffed a few weeks later. They need to take the time out and focus on things that will improve this game as is without the rush releasing of new weapons,items and frames, as this will become a cycle of "ooh something new!" (Grind forever to get it) and when you get it and use it until you want something else new it will become dull and to some it has. Many people I play with have quit because of this. Make a more immersive story it is really shallow and vague as is and improve the combat and parkour substantially,from the ground up if you have to. Make missions increasingly fun and enjoyable by adding variation and random occurring events during gameplay not just a grind session, make us feel like we earned those things in not such a dull and vague way. Enemy variation and also much more but there is too much to be explained here. Doing these types of improvements will cater to a lot more audience maybe even those people who quit and those who have never played this game.

Without a whole new core system Implented this game can still be way more enjoyable But +1 to the OP this is a great idea. Sorry if this post is repetitive I didn't read through the other 30+ pages as I don't have the time. Just thought I d post my thoughts.

[Calayne]

As much as I want the system to be implemented, it won't ever happen. Went through DE's Livestreams and they said that the mod card system is staying. Maybe we should focus on finding out ways to improve upon the mod system and make it more enjoyable? 

 

Also Zamboni, since no one apparently asked this yet: How, if implemented, would this system look in two years? What attachments could we see for weapons? What skills and perks could we see for Warframes? What could we see for melee?

 

Don't mind if I input an opinion from myself?

 

You're right, I think there may be a compromise we can reach. For starters, retiring multishot, and giving weapons rank-by-rank progression. We may not need to retire Serration, but it may be severely nerfed to cater to the natural growth of weapons, perhaps providing a 50% increase at the max level. Sounds bad, but the idea is that it will allow weapons to reach a theoretical max that is not too different or powerful than a weapon without it.

 

This, along with the provision of other basic mods, will make other mods more attractive, as well as making the game less grindy: Crit mods, perhaps, may still remain, but pure damage mods must be retired. I doubt that DE may make such a controversial move, but I do hope that they will, some day, if they see the flaws in their current design. The larger the gap in power caused by RNG, the less enjoyable it is. 

 

Mods, therefore, will now allow some focus on utility, since pure damage and shields/health are no longer the beasts they once were, and only grant a marginal or fractional boost to already-impressive stats. Elemental mods may still work as they do, but could also use value tweaking. These elemental mods will still be crucial, and still require grinding, in addition to the other unique mods and warframe mods. Personally, the Warframe mods are the one which require the least tweaking.

 

Other mods can then be created that offer more utility: Bullets that ricochet, bullets that deal AOE, higher status chance (Better than the crap we get now), in addition to the good range of mods we already have, such as Eagle Eye, Stabilizer (good combo for auto-snipers), and Fast Hands (haha). The 50%-ish increase of damage mods will no longer out-class the utility mods, if they could offer variation in game-play. In fact, with better skill, I can see some weapons benefiting from Metal Auger, bullet-ricochet and AOE damage being more effective than pure damage builds when coupled with the right elemental mods, while other weapons would like to complement their roles with interesting, gameplay-altering mods. Pure numbers are boring, I feel, and mods should introduce a new element of mechanisms.

 

I think the issue will start becoming more apparent as time goes on: End game will either be too hard for most, if catered to the strongest of players; Or way too easy, if catered to the middle or lower power level range of players. Using Zamboni's method, we'll be able to add more abilities and gauge player strength (as well as limit it), so as to better design for true end-game content.

 

Focuses are a good step in that direction, but I feel it is... somewhat insufficient. I hope Vor's Prize, promised so long ago, addresses this to some extent.

 

As for the rest, weapon mods can certainly include the ones I mentioned above. Others may include, perhaps, homing bullets, bullets that fracture after hitting the first target and spray to enemies behind, bullets that leave residues (ala Napalms, but much smaller) of fire or acid that deal DoT for those who step on it, caltrop-bullets... List is endless, but there are so many things which can enhance gameplay. We really, really don't need any more numbers.

 

And since we're starting to get so many guns, there's really a lot more possibility than simple shifting of damage types, fire rate, status chance and crit rates. Mods should've been like that from the start. It still can be. Hopefully, this change can happen before we're in too deep. It's still not so bad now. There's still no campaign, we haven't launched for real. It's still not too late. I hope.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Calayne

[Zirion_Bk]

-snip-

Those are some good ideas you have, and I feel like Serration really needs a nerf, or removal but that can be discussed. Giving weapons stat increases by leveling, like warframes do, is a huge step in the right direction, as something as simple as that can make a huge difference in builds. For example, the Soma won't need to rely so heavily on damage mods to do anything and more ignored weapons can shine forth. Making more varied guns, like the Penta (God I love that) would also give a better feeling than what I got when I saw the Tetra, which I still like even though I get a huge Boltor feel. What about mod slots though? I feel as if those need some manner of change, at least in the warframe category, to encourage new builds. Having utility slots could work wonders, to allow mods like Rush or Intruder in to some frames that just can't afford it when min-maxing for something. Any thoughts on this?

[Calayne]

I actually had a dream once on this. Don't mind if I elaborate my own idea?

 

Below the current mod slots, you'll get another 5: These five are used for Utility type mods. The Utility type mods are predetermined, and you can slot it into these five mod slots, or the ten above. The reverse, however, is not true. This may seem like a good way to make things overpowered, but it will still consume mod energy, though you can (arguably) perform forma on the slots as well. 

 

The ideal case, though, would be for Utility mods to be rank-less, and provide flat bonuses of utility. The Mastery Rank, perhaps, could be one way to obtain these utility slots, or even use utility mods. Perhaps utility mods could even cost different types of mod energy, say, 1 Utility Energy per mod rank, and more powerful Utility mods would require more than 1 mod energy. And unlike regular mods, perhaps Utility mods may also allow copies to be equipped, though slots are still limited.

 

So, for example, say we finally get the end-game campaign we want, and there are hacking puzzles so complex, even the fastest human hackers will need Intruder, the Utility mod that increases hacking time by 3 seconds. There can be a designated hacker of Rank 12, and Intruder is a mod that requires 2 Utility energy. So he equips four Intruder mods, giving an extra 12 seconds, and taking 8 Utility energy. With the remaining 4 Utility Energy, he can equip Acrobat, or Handspring, among other mods that can be designated as Utility.

 

If it seems rather strange, that is because I was high and the idea came to me in a dream. I S#&$ you not.

[Zirion_Bk]

It doesn't seem strange, it is a pretty good idea! If you don't mind, could you suggest that to the devs in a PM or something? It would grant even more options for builds AND fulfill Zamboni's goal of making utility mods like intruder worth putting in, since they wouldn't have to share place with redirection, focus, you get the idea.

[Calayne]

LoL, I'm not sure if the devs would have the time for that, to be honest. But perhaps I'll create a new thread or something, regarding this, and link it to Rebecca. Perhaps it may be considered, then, but before I send the link and fate-willing, there'll be a discussion that improves the general idea.

[Zirion_Bk]

Sounds good! But, what type of mods would be labeled as utility? Like, stamina, shield/stamina recharge, knockdown resistance (We need a mod like that, outside of nightmare mods btw) mods?

[Calayne]

That is actually something up for debate, but the criteria should be mods that affect your playstyle, rather than your stats directly. 

 

In that vein, I have a short list:

 

Stamina-related mods, Rush mods, knockdown resistance, movement-related mods, situational mods (such as Intruder, Warm Coat and Aviator) and shield recharge. 

 

The things that remain as they are, are shield/health mods, power-enhancing mods (Of all kinds), Warframe powers (obviously), and others which I cannot currently bring to mind. They are generally the above, from what I can recall. 

[Zirion_Bk]

And I guess that resistance mods like antitoxin would fall under that utility category as well. Would these slots apply for weapons as well, with mods such as eagle eye, ammo mods and such?

[Calayne]

And I guess that resistance mods like antitoxin would fall under that utility category as well. Would these slots apply for weapons as well, with mods such as eagle eye, ammo mods and such?

 

Actually, I'm wondering about anti-toxin. Defense mods should rightly be a stat-boosting mod, and I'd personally classify that as a regular (And not Utility) mod. 

 

As for the weapons, they won't need the utility slot, since with the recommended change, the mod slots you have will be used for utility purposes, rather than for pure damage (Considering that damage now grows at a steady and dependable rate). Perhaps the crit weapons should also grow in crit rate and crit damage, though less drastically than our currently modded ones, so those who wish to focus on crit may do so, while those who don't can freely choose to mod it for utility. 

[Zirion_Bk]

Then, doesn't Aviator do the same? It IS a damage reducing mod, so shouldn't it go into the same slots as antitoxin if that's the case with resistance mods?

 

True, but if people just go min-maxing like always they will focus on damage before utility, even if Serration is nerfed or removed. And, how powerful should, say, a Braton or a Soma be at rank 30 if the change happens? Players using either should be able to deal with enemies at a respectable level without mods or even high level if modded properly, so the boost should be noticeable but not overly big.

[Calayne]

Well, Aviator was different in the sense that it wasn't always active, and jump-shooting all the time requires some pretty mean skills. Antitoxin, on the other hand, works whether you're standing, crouching, or tea-bagging dead ancients.

 

Also, that is an excellent point: But damage is always something people will want. It's balanced by the energy cost required to actually use it, versus what you can put there given that it takes so much energy. Honestly, I'm not sure how much is a reasonable amount of damage Serration should be able to improve per rank, considering that there is also Heavy Caliber. 

 

I'm tempted to say that perhaps Serration should just add a measly 30% at max, and Heavy Caliber be nerfed to 30% at max as well. 

 

Balance has always been an issue, though. A more in depth analysis would have to be undertaken to fully understand the effects of the change.

[Zirion_Bk]

Hmm, true. Aviator is a utility skill then. Maybe some mods that reduce damage or slightly slow down time (No idea how to implement that though) while aiming in the middle of a slide or jump could work? Would make for some interesting builds.

 

A bit of a story here: I have yet to even put Hornet Strike on my Wraith Twin Vipers since I built them to proc enemies with god-knows-what and then switch to another weapon to finish them off unless they are under radiation. Actually works pretty well since heavies are bullet sponges and get the proc easily. And 30% is honestly too little. 50% for Serration and maybe 75% for Heavy Caliber since it comes with reduced accuracy. Gotta make those corrupted mods look nice as well.