Dante's nerfs is super reactionary and stupid

[kalikihs]

•  Final Verse’s “Tragedy” now only affects enemies within Line of Sight.
  • this just makes the ability useless and Dante is no longer a good dps warframe
  • this means Dante is now just an Overguard tank and that is is
• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Final Verse’s “Triumph” from 5000 to 2000 at Max Rank.
  • this does essentially nothing as at low level we still get enough Overguard to just be immortal and at high levels only the Regeneration really matters as the enemies will oneshot the Overguard
• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Light Verse from 500 to 250 at Max Rank
  • this once again does nothing as it is mostly used to cast Triumph
• Final Verse’s “Pageflight” no longer applies increased Status Effect Damage to enemies hit by its Paragrimms. 
  • this was a bug so no comment here

Furthermore this nerf does not even follow your "philosophy on why [you] nerf things in Warframe" since he does not automate play, he is not disruptive to squad or at least not any more than Saryn or Styanax, and as for being overly dominant he came out JUST A WEEK AGO and it is therefore impossible to say if he is or not at the moment

In my opinion all the nerfs should be reverted as they are super reactionary and if Datne is really dominant in a few months time then a nerf will be reasonable at that time and if you just reactionary nerf things like this the player base will not trust anything to remain good and even right now there are many people who bought Dante with platinum because he is new and cool are regretting that decision and therefore you are cultivating an atmosphere where people will not want to buy things with platinum or real money because if it sells well you will just nerf it to the ground

Additionally the only people happy with this change are people using rage for energy and how about instead of nerfing everything that interferes with that to the ground you just fix rage which is the real problem

Final I think there is a fairly simple solution that should make most people happy

• first revert the changes
• second remove the base damage of tragedy so it only expedites and multiplies status damage
  • this is to prevent easy low level nuking through walls
• finally let rage trigger with overguard
  • if that is too much you can make it so that only applies if you did not generate the overguard

Edited April 5 by kalikihs

[(PSN)D-theTickler]

As a returning player that was struggling with higher level content I brought Dante which helped me open up steel path to game with friends, he was fun but I was soon humbled with him pre nurf on steel path if I got lazy. Having just spent the past 2 hours in Zariman with him after this nurf I found his 4 Tragedy to be useless with all the large crates beams and wot not blocking the view of mobs, and I just spent most the time running out of energy trying to keep my overguard up as as soon as I got 13-20k it was stripped just a quick. My gunplay isn't great so having a caster was brilliant to dps with guys, but it feels like I'm back to just following the group casting overguard constantly to not slow them down with constant rez's. I would ask for a refund if I thought is was possible.

[Doradoradorador]

The main content of this game is PvE, so there should be no need for hasty adjustments even if they are a little too strong.
If there is a need for hasty adjustments, it would be that their nerf philosophy was "automatic," "confusing," and "dominant," which I honestly don't think they have fulfilled.
Dante has become a generic frame that only gives overguard and hits with weapons.

DeepLで翻訳したため少し誤りがあります

[Unghuf]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb kalikihs:

•  Final Verse’s “Tragedy” now only affects enemies within Line of Sight.
  • this just makes the ability useless and Dante is no longer a good dps warframe
  • this means Dante is now just an Overguard tank and that is is
• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Final Verse’s “Triumph” from 5000 to 2000 at Max Rank.
  • this does essentially nothing as at low level we still get enough Overguard to just be immortal and at high levels only the Regeneration really matters as the enemies will oneshot the Overguard
• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Light Verse from 500 to 250 at Max Rank
  • this once again does nothing as it is mostly used to cast Triumph
• Final Verse’s “Pageflight” no longer applies increased Status Effect Damage to enemies hit by its Paragrimms. 
  • this was a bug so no comment here

Furthermore this nerf does not even follow your "philosophy on why [you] nerf things in Warframe" since he does not automate play, he is not disruptive to squad or at least not any more than Saryn or Styanax, and as for being overly dominant he came out JUST A WEEK AGO and it is therefore impossible to say if he is or not at the moment

In my opinion all the nerfs should be reverted as they are super reactionary and if Datne is really dominant in a few months time then a nerf will be reasonable at that time and if you just reactionary nerf things like this the player base will not trust anything to remain good and even right now there are many people who bought Dante with platinum because he is new and cool are regretting that decision and therefore you are cultivating an atmosphere where people will not want to buy things with platinum or real money because if it sells well you will just nerf it to the ground

Additionally the only people happy with this change are people using rage for energy and how about instead of nerfing everything that interferes with that to the ground you just fix rage which is the real problem

I agree with everything but have some things to add.

I think that this is also a problem.

• Final Verse’s “Pageflight” no longer applies increased Status Effect Damage to enemies hit by its Paragrimms. 
  • this was a bug so no comment here

Everybody agrees that he was good but by far not the best damage dealer. This ability was the only reason he was even able to compete, it literally cuts his damage in half if this ability stops working this way. I am not exaggerating when I say this ability raised his damage by almost 100%. To everybody that says "But he can also support so he should not deal great damage" almost all other abilities either buff his own damage or focused on dealing damage and overguard is a really bad support mechanic and NEEDS TO CHANGE. It disrupts others and needs to either act as if it was health with a bit less effectiveness since you can have much more or Dante should only overguard himself. (also it is much worse as support than almost every other strait up buff because the other players will not feel any different except for being arbitrarily more tanky)

If you delegate him to supp he will literally just spam buffs(overguard) and rely on a weapon like so many other frames while being outclassed in EVERY WAY by frames like Revanant.

HE WAS CLEARY NOT DESIGNED TO BE A SUPPORTER.

A realy great idea I have heard from another disgussion is: "Remove the line of sight but make tragodey only affect enemies with slash, heat, and toxin on them. "

Edited April 5 by Unghuf

[kalikihs]

26 minutes ago, Unghuf said:

I agree with everything but have some things to add.

I think that this is also a problem.

• Final Verse’s “Pageflight” no longer applies increased Status Effect Damage to enemies hit by its Paragrimms. 
  • this was a bug so no comment here

Everybody agrees that he was good but by far not the best damage dealer. This ability was the only reason he was even able to compete, it literally cuts his damage in half if this ability stops working this way. I am not exaggerating when I say this ability raised his damage by almost 100%. To everybody that says "But he can also support so he should not deal great damage" almost all other abilities either buff his own damage or focused on dealing damage and overguard is a really bad support mechanic and NEEDS TO CHANGE. It disrupts others and needs to either act as if it was health with a bit less effectiveness since you can have much more or Dante should only overguard himself. (also it is much worse as support than almost every other strait up buff because the other players will not feel any different except for being arbitrarily more tanky)

If you delegate him to supp he will literally just spam buffs(overguard) and rely on a weapon like so many other frames while being outclassed in EVERY WAY by frames like Revanant.

HE WAS CLEARY NOT DESIGNED TO BE A SUPPORTER.

A realy great idea I have heard from another disgussion is: "Remove the line of sight but make tragodey only affect enemies with slash, heat, and toxin on them. "

while Pageflight did add a lot of damage I don't think Dante really needs it as at least before the nerfs to tragedy you can easily hit all enemies in front of you with a ~120000 hit that would bypass armor with his dark verse -> dark verse -> tragedy with only ~200% strength which is enough to kill most things even in steel path so I find Pageflight  unnecessary and too slow at spreading the de buff to really matter

for the overguard I think the mechanic itself is fine and also I do like the fact that it adds more ways to survive

finaly in regards to tragedy in my opinion they should get rid of the default damage it does and make it so it only expedites status effects with a multiplier instead of the line of sight

[Unghuf]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb kalikihs:

while Pageflight did add a lot of damage I don't think Dante really needs it as at least before the nerfs to tragedy you can easily hit all enemies in front of you with a ~120000 hit that would bypass armor with his dark verse -> dark verse -> tragedy with only ~200% strength which is enough to kill most things even in steel path so I find Pageflight  unnecessary and too slow at spreading the de buff to really matter

for the overguard I think the mechanic itself is fine and also I do like the fact that it adds more ways to survive

finaly in regards to tragedy in my opinion they should get rid of the default damage it does and make it so it only expedites status effects with a multiplier instead of the line of sight

I myself have not optimized my build. I am missing tauforged shards and some mods could be more optimal so for higher level content I really noticed and appreciated the buff from Pageflight but I can see where you are coming from. Dante probably does not need it for most of the games content but still the excessive damage of other frames forces him to have it if he wants to compete I get that this ends in a damage race but he does not need to be better just comparable.

I guess it’s more of a problem about unfair nerfs

the point about overguard was simply to underline that he should keep all his damage since if his main use starts being the overguard he would be really uninteresting compared to other supporters that do much more than simply give more survivability but yes as a simple mechanic for survivability I consider it to be fine if it does not impact your build

and lastly your final suggestion is also really good and might be better than the one I proposed I think there are many great options that don’t just make the character unfun hope they fix that

-thank you for the feedback

Edited April 5 by Unghuf

[BubblesPrime23]

I agree. I think it’s a completely stupid nerf. I was using him as I usually do after spending more than $400 making an entire build for him, my Noctua, my Furax, my Dante, my Diriga, every mod I bought, forma I placed, and all the time I spent got pushed down the drain with your dev fingers. 
 

I was excited to play another Warframe for the first time in MONTHS because of him and it took less than a week for you to screw that up.

 

I’m Mr 6 and he gave me the incentive to push to Mr 8 so I could actually start trading the bigger items. And he gives me the incentive to keep increasing my Mr. I was at Mr 4, I’m p2p and I accept that. I was planning to stay at Mr 4 and just complete everything like I usually do in games. But nope, I had incentive to keep going. Then Dante drops in my lap at Mr 6 so I purchase him. Then everything that I was not willing to do in the game to increase where I was became something I was incentivized to do and you couldn’t convince me otherwise. I started playing every main story quest which again, I had no desire to before, but Dante gave me incentives.
 

I’m back to square 2 (not 1 luckily but still worth crap) because of this dumb LoS update on his 4th ability. I know you Devs know we Tenno care about this. 
 

I have a busy work life and I p2p because I prefer to spend my time having fun and not having to grind stuff out. 5, 6, 7, plus Forma’s later on different items of my build meant specifically for Dante. The highest paid Arcane mods, all the endo I had to swallow from Market 39,000Endo to upgrade Umbral intensify and honestly that’s just scratching the surface. Truly just the surface of the Amp I want to release because of this utter crap update.

 

I’ve spent thousands on this game (across my two accounts) and I’m honestly fine spending more. But I need a reason and gosh this is just a slap in the face. 

Edited April 5 by BubblesPrime23
Reducing my use of harsh language.

[vFlitz]

10 hours ago, kalikihs said:

• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Final Verse’s “Triumph” from 5000 to 2000 at Max Rank.
  • this does essentially nothing as at low level we still get enough Overguard to just be immortal and at high levels only the Regeneration really matters as the enemies will oneshot the Overguard
• Reduced the amount of Overguard gained from Light Verse from 500 to 250 at Max Rank
  • this once again does nothing as it is mostly used to cast Triumph

Small correction to that: it's true that for low levels it's still god mode and for very high levels only the regen truly matters, but it does make a difference for midrange where it's not yet necessary to rely exclusively on gating. It makes him more tedious to play, it's a QoL downgrade in similar vein to the LoS requirement on Tragedy.

The overall power of a frame is important, but how it feels to play is just as if not more important. Dante felt good, and all the nerfs he got are almost exclusively targeted at his feel rather than his power, almost as if the actual goal was to make him too clunky and unappealing to play regardless of the potential of what he can do.

[Nero.DMC]

3 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Small correction to that: it's true that for low levels it's still god mode and for very high levels only the regen truly matters, but it does make a difference for midrange where it's not yet necessary to rely exclusively on gating. It makes him more tedious to play, it's a QoL downgrade in similar vein to the LoS requirement on Tragedy.

The overall power of a frame is important, but how it feels to play is just as if not more important. Dante felt good, and all the nerfs he got are almost exclusively targeted at his feel rather than his power, almost as if the actual goal was to make him too clunky and unappealing to play regardless of the potential of what he can do.

there are so many frames that are already god mode tho, Dante is nothing special he is just new