[Dante Unbound] Our plans for next week (35.5.6)

[Fenastreal]

Here's a question: They kept mentioning Rage and Inaros and Nidus, but Kullervo also has no shields but can give himself OG, will this Rage change affect him or not? Cause if this is a change to simply HA and Rage(which is SHOULD affect Gauss, as his Kinetic Plating doesn't care about health vs shield, but IS stopped by OG currently) then this would be a major boon as Kullervo could RELIABLY use Rage/HA as right now if you use it, you have to choose between using recompense or letting Rage proc.

[DeadlyDullahan]

30 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I don't think if DE goes the "no los lower range" route it'll be 20-25m guys this is exactly what happened before the dante nerfs were revealed, people said it'll be no big deal and they WERE a big deal, if they nerf his range it's gonna be gutted 

That's not an issue for me, I would fully expect the base range change to be less than 20m, just means needing to mod for some range at the expense of Strength which is completely reasonable and an actual balance fix. It also encourages having some range so that OG can actually reach your teammates (which would be a good thing after OG changes are made to fix the problems it has) If they nerf the range on top of the other stats then I would go as far to say that they gutted it truly, but if they adjust just the range on his 4 it would actually be decently in line and maintain it's overall function.

[Phoenician]

I think the answer is pretty simple and the vast majority of people agree.

Reduce Dantes range down, bring it to 20m so it falls in line with other frames whilst adding a slight nerf to reduce his power level and remove the LOS.

Having an LOS on an AOE ability, not a cone ability but an AOE, is incredibly frustrating and defeats the point of it being an AOE.

In order to use it we need to use an LOS ability in his 3rd then ANOTHER LOS ability (with stricter checks) to get the payoff for that. That is frustrating and punishing for players for several reasons.

Reduce the range, remove LOS and a SIGNIFICANT majority of players will be happy, faith will be somewhat restored and the financial hit won't be as severe because now players will vote with their wallets and retaliate. It's so silly to go through that for whatever reason.

DE can come out of this relatively unscathed with just a bruise or two and will be remembered for listening.

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

Finally formaed out Dante for myself, took him into Circulus Lua (that's the higher level conjunction survival) on Steel Path solo, and breezed through to 20 minutes without hitting a single life support pod. Even with LOS restrictions, this frame is insanely powerful in his current state, and we're about to get buffs this week.

If you're only reading threads and not trying the frame, go play some Dante. He's amazing, even if he isn't the next Saryn anymore.

[LordOfKenpo]

Just now, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

Finally formaed out Dante for myself, took him into Circulus Lua (that's the higher level conjunction survival) on Steel Path solo, and breezed through to 20 minutes without hitting a single life support pod. Even with LOS restrictions, this frame is insanely powerful in his current state, and we're about to get buffs this week.

If you're only reading threads and not trying the frame, go play some Dante. He's amazing, even if he isn't the next Saryn anymore.

Lua tiles are pretty good for LOS abilities though. They don't have a lot of decorations that block LOS the way other tilesets do

[Nero.DMC]

2 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

Finally formaed out Dante for myself, took him into Circulus Lua (that's the higher level conjunction survival) on Steel Path solo, and breezed through to 20 minutes without hitting a single life support pod. Even with LOS restrictions, this frame is insanely powerful in his current state, and we're about to get buffs this week.

If you're only reading threads and not trying the frame, go play some Dante. He's amazing, even if he isn't the next Saryn anymore.

Lua is perfect for LoS they are huge open spaces... short sighted comment is just short sighted...

[ShaloomHD]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)toughdragon17 said:

I Didn't say he needed it for his nuke build and yes he falls of after 500 

you r right his 4 does f all without is 3 so the other guy talk BS and still on base star chart 

10 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

Finally formaed out Dante for myself, took him into Circulus Lua (that's the higher level conjunction survival) on Steel Path solo, and breezed through to 20 minutes without hitting a single life support pod. Even with LOS restrictions, this frame is insanely powerful in his current state, and we're about to get buffs this week.

If you're only reading threads and not trying the frame, go play some Dante. He's amazing, even if he isn't the next Saryn anymore.

20 mins lol grow up  plus he never was the next saryn she can nuke multi rooms dante could nuke half a room and hydron base star chart same has 50% of the other frames that still can 

Edited April 9 by ShaloomHD

[ShaloomHD]

all DE has to do if they really want to nerf something on dante pointless has so many other frame have the same issues of nuking low levels is remove the base damage of is 4 and remove LOS and touch nothing else everything else can go back to how he was 

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

Just now, Nero.DMC said:

Lua is perfect for LoS they are huge open spaces... short sighted comment is just short sighted...

I used him all day on literally all content I did except for my Elite Archimedea run. Did solo everything, steel path everything, lots of disruptions and omnia fissures, most often to C rot. He's easy to play and quite strong, and I've yet to find the mission that's such a tight warren that I can't take care of business.

Just to be sillier, I'm running Onos and Ruvox instead of much stronger weapons, and I have a lazy kuva zarr for clearing Violence in case he shows. It was unused in all other cases.

Helios armor strip build + the armor strip canticle + archon continuity with a toxin noctua meant that if I wanted it, everything was mostly or fully stripped at almost all times. This feels utterly unnecessary in practice and I used the noctua only when I needed to kill a disruption target, but it's a fun extra bit of flexing on the enemy, and Noctua itself is quite strong with its ability to sweep a crowd and trigger a lot of armor strip when you follow it with a nuke.

It's clear that like most frames, you'll need to take extra steps to back the overguard with shield gating once you're past a certain enemy level, but that's also the case for the vast majority of frames, so it's a non-consideration in my mind.

If you still think he's somehow weak in specific content, I don't know what to tell you. He ain't a S#&$ty frame, and when he falls off, it's the same restrictions as any other frame.

There's no cherry picking here, and frankly, this is my complete argument. I ran him through his paces and he's powerful. If you think I'm going to soon stumble into failure, name the mission and I'll go play with it and find out. I don't think there'll be one.

Frame is strong. I'm encouraging others to try him out and build him up before they demand a Saryn-esque tier of nuke potential.

[DeadlyDullahan]

1 minute ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I used him all day on literally all content I did except for my Elite Archimedea run. Did solo everything, steel path everything, lots of disruptions and omnia fissures, most often to C rot. He's easy to play and quite strong, and I've yet to find the mission that's such a tight warren that I can't take care of business.

Just to be sillier, I'm running Onos and Ruvox instead of much stronger weapons, and I have a lazy kuva zarr for clearing Violence in case he shows. It was unused in all other cases.

Helios armor strip build + the armor strip canticle + archon continuity with a toxin noctua meant that if I wanted it, everything was mostly or fully stripped at almost all times. This feels utterly unnecessary in practice and I used the noctua only when I needed to kill a disruption target, but it's a fun extra bit of flexing on the enemy, and Noctua itself is quite strong with its ability to sweep a crowd and trigger a lot of armor strip when you follow it with a nuke.

It's clear that like most frames, you'll need to take extra steps to back the overguard with shield gating once you're past a certain enemy level, but that's also the case for the vast majority of frames, so it's a non-consideration in my mind.

If you still think he's somehow weak in specific content, I don't know what to tell you. He ain't a S#&$ty frame, and when he falls off, it's the same restrictions as any other frame.

There's no cherry picking here, and frankly, this is my complete argument. I ran him through his paces and he's powerful. If you think I'm going to soon stumble into failure, name the mission and I'll go play with it and find out. I don't think there'll be one.

Frame is strong. I'm encouraging others to try him out and build him up before they demand a Saryn-esque tier of nuke potential.

Been using him Day 1 across all content and specifically in public lobbies not just solo, He is noticeably more clunky and frustrating to use especially in a group setting. Just because you don't notice the difference doesn't mean the recent changes are a non-issue. I'm very happy for you that you have the means & capacity to compensate or ignore performance loss, lower KPM, and playstyle restrictions but your experience doesn't speak for everyone else.

[LordOfKenpo]

9 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I'm encouraging others to try him out and build him up before they demand a Saryn-esque tier of nuke potential.

Many of us have and we played him before the nerf so we have a good comparison here. We're not asking for Saryn level nuking, we're asking for what we had before which was not even close to Saryn level. It was more fun and less brainless to play back then. LOS is a terrible mechanic in WF in general. We've given DE plenty of alternative options that would keep his power in line with other frames while still making him as fun as he used to be, but they seem to be ignoring us (which is also why we're upset)

Edited April 9 by LordOfKenpo

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

Just now, DeadlyDullahan said:

Been using him Day 1 across all content and specifically in public lobbies not just solo, He is noticeably more clunky and frustrating to use especially in a group setting. Just because you don't notice the difference doesn't mean the recent changes are a non-issue. I'm very happy for you that you have the means & capacity to compensate or ignore performance loss, lower KPM, and playstyle restrictions but your experience doesn't speak for everyone else.

I respect that you want to be able to kill more and without restriction. That is a fair desire, and my disagreement is one of balance philosophy more than anything else.

[Gaxxian]

This guy here understands what we need to get rid, so DE doesn't have any excuse to keep LoS:

hace 5 horas, Gaxxian dijo:

Ok, some numbers for context. I have my 439% Strenght Dante ready for some number crunch with Tragedy.

This is the dmg when I look at the ability: This means that each enemy (not primed) will receive that damage. At low levels, that damage is capable to kill anything but I will test it against SteelPath level 195 corrupted grinners.

Let's see how that BIG NUMBER goes there:

Results:

- Corrupted Butcher: 14843
- Corrupted Lancer: 321
- Corrupted Bombard: 131
- Corrupted Heavy Gunner: 295
- Corrupted Warden: 288

So, it's "good" to kill Corrupted Butchers. Do we really need that damage in high level play?
I mean, if this was the problem that made DE to add LoS in first place (not like we know, because they are insultingly silent and opaque towards the community), then between reducing range or remove that Dmg, i prefer to remove that meager damage than to cripple the ability reducing the range (thus, making it bad to clear several groups... like LoS again, but in another shape).

Ofc, the best thing would be to just revert all changes. But if thats not possible, then -Dmg is preferable over anything else (LoS and range included).

And here I explained why that dmg is irrelevant at high level play.

So... its time to ask DE to get rid of that dmg and LoS, at the same time.

[DeadlyDullahan]

Just now, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I respect that you want to be able to kill more and without restriction. That is a fair desire, and my disagreement is one of balance philosophy more than anything else.

Unfortunately you've misinterpreted the meaning in my words. It's not an issue of killing more, it's an issue of not being able to kill adequately and being locked specifically into a set of playstyles to compensate for the issues that a poorly designed LOS system creates regardless of the coming fixes. I personally don't appreciate being locked into a weapon platform style of gameplay or KOS ability spam. Too many frames already do this and chucking Dante into those bins with the excuse "it's for balancing" is not a healthy balance.

[Nero.DMC]

19 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I used him all day on literally all content I did except for my Elite Archimedea run. Did solo everything, steel path everything, lots of disruptions and omnia fissures, most often to C rot. He's easy to play and quite strong, and I've yet to find the mission that's such a tight warren that I can't take care of business.

Just to be sillier, I'm running Onos and Ruvox instead of much stronger weapons, and I have a lazy kuva zarr for clearing Violence in case he shows. It was unused in all other cases.

Helios armor strip build + the armor strip canticle + archon continuity with a toxin noctua meant that if I wanted it, everything was mostly or fully stripped at almost all times. This feels utterly unnecessary in practice and I used the noctua only when I needed to kill a disruption target, but it's a fun extra bit of flexing on the enemy, and Noctua itself is quite strong with its ability to sweep a crowd and trigger a lot of armor strip when you follow it with a nuke.

It's clear that like most frames, you'll need to take extra steps to back the overguard with shield gating once you're past a certain enemy level, but that's also the case for the vast majority of frames, so it's a non-consideration in my mind.

If you still think he's somehow weak in specific content, I don't know what to tell you. He ain't a S#&$ty frame, and when he falls off, it's the same restrictions as any other frame.

There's no cherry picking here, and frankly, this is my complete argument. I ran him through his paces and he's powerful. If you think I'm going to soon stumble into failure, name the mission and I'll go play with it and find out. I don't think there'll be one.

Frame is strong. I'm encouraging others to try him out and build him up before they demand a Saryn-esque tier of nuke potential.

He is fine but a lot more annoying to play for no good reason whatsoever, he never competed with the top frames at all, not even before the nerf, he was just less annoying and more fun and that is why people want it back.

Edited April 9 by Nero.DMC

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

I could kill adequately, and if I was ever using a weapon, it was Noctua itself, the one designed for the frame. The exception was dropping zarr bombs on violence, which is a common solution to, well, that exact acolyte.

I'm not commenting on or implying anything about your skill level. I'm sure you're quite good at the game. But there are builds that can handle the content until scaling issues take over, which is like, most frames in the game.

[Phoenician]

I think a lot of nerf defenders are confusing "unable to nuke anymore, weak, not strong" with what we are all saying regarding Dantes power. Nobody argues he's strong or not, we argue that he isn't how he was in terms of fluidity and FUN.

It's been said multiple times that we don't care about the 6500 damage, we don't care about his 30m range, we want what we had before in terms of how we played him!

I really wish people would read and understand what is meant.

[DeadlyDullahan]

Just now, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I could kill adequately, and if I was ever using a weapon, it was Noctua itself, the one designed for the frame. The exception was dropping zarr bombs on violence, which is a common solution to, well, that exact acolyte.

I'm not commenting on or implying anything about your skill level. I'm sure you're quite good at the game. But there are builds that can handle the content until scaling issues take over, which is like, most frames in the game.

Again your ability to compensate or overlook changes does not speak to the quality of the frame. There are poorly designed frames that can "kill adequately" it doesn't make them fun frames or good frames.

[Nero.DMC]

23 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I could kill adequately, and if I was ever using a weapon, it was Noctua itself, the one designed for the frame. The exception was dropping zarr bombs on violence, which is a common solution to, well, that exact acolyte.

I'm not commenting on or implying anything about your skill level. I'm sure you're quite good at the game. But there are builds that can handle the content until scaling issues take over, which is like, most frames in the game.

Its just a worst iteration, you can settle for worse, but dont try to make everyone settle for a objectively worse and less fun wf, i dont mind if they consider he needed a nerf, if that was the case they absolutely should have nerfed him IN THE CORRECT WAY, by changing its values not by making him more annoying to play, LoS is not a balance tool and it infuriates me a bit that they considered it as such.

Edit: added this:
just want to add that he did not need a nerf whatsoever anyway, there are several more powerful warframes than him that have been allowed to reign for years, if they could not allow dante to stay that "OP" then they need to start working on all those other  frames, my guess is they wont...

Edited April 9 by Nero.DMC

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

8 minutes ago, Phoenician said:

I think a lot of nerf defenders are confusing "unable to nuke anymore, weak, not strong" with what we are all saying regarding Dantes power. Nobody argues he's strong or not, we argue that he isn't how he was in terms of fluidity and FUN.

It's been said multiple times that we don't care about the 6500 damage, we don't care about his 30m range, we want what we had before in terms of how we played him!

I really wish people would read and understand what is meant.

I'm reading this. I'm going to say quite clearly in my own words, what you just said. You want a particular gameplay experience while playing Dante, which you had before and lost. It was coherent, clean, and fun. I'm sympathetic to that desire.

I'd like to add a bit. For many people, this will be the first frame that just comes out of the box, able to handle content in the same smooth way that some other frames can after building and tuning a loadout. If they spent money on this frame, they'll doubly want to keep that original feel, both for attaining a certain experience of power and also because they paid money, and feel they are owed what they bought. Again, I'm sympathetic.

For the sake of this discussion, we can--as you suggest--set aside whether or not Dante is strong, in what contexts he is strong, and what that even means. For me and my standards,  he easily ranks up there as one of the more complete and competent frames for the vast majority of content.

For you and your standards, he has been made significantly clunkier and less fun. Again, with no intent to patronize, I get it. I am listening.

Now here's the but--the part you will disagree with--but believe me, I am making this argument in good faith.

In my opinion, the game is only interesting if enemies are consistently looking at you and fighting you. You need to be opposed--and in complicated ways--or the game becomes trivial. Frames that kill through walls too easily can render much--though not all of the game--irrelevant. I consider this bad for the game's health and design, even if there are frames which already do this. In my mind, I believe those frames shouldn't do this, and Dante shouldn't do this either.

For me, I believe the relative clunkiness is worth ensuring that more content is interesting in the long run, even if it does in fact hurt the clean and fun feeling that you had.

Note that I'm not saying you're wrong. I am disagreeing with an end goal of the game's design. We are arguing for different, incompatible goals for the game and for the player. I hope you can see and understand, and feel sympathy for, people arguing that this is good for the health of the game.

[Nero.DMC]

2 minutes ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

In my opinion, the game is only interesting if enemies are consistently looking at you and fighting you. You need to be opposed--and in complicated ways--or the game becomes trivial. Frames that kill through walls too easily can render much--though not all of the game--irrelevant. I consider this bad for the game's health and design, even if there are frames which already do this. In my mind, I believe those frames shouldn't do this, and Dante shouldn't do this either.

you cannot kill those enemies (not even with the old Dante) outside of the star chart (wich any frame can deal with easily) without first hitting them with dark verse, you had to hit them first to nuke them, it was never free (outside extremely low level and weak enemies that never pose any threat anyway) now you have to first hit them with dark verse and ops you moved too much and he is out of los? too bad for you, you are in a enclosed space? you no longer can move inside the space hitting with dark verse to nuke with tragedy...

The LoS solution is not a balancing solution, is a QoL removal with the excuse of "he has too much range"

[Godli]

LoS is just bad with the map design of this game, is the art itself that works against the line of sight... give dante infinite range if u want, with LoS u will hit like 5 enemies at best.

If DE want to nerf him ok then nerf his range but just remove the damn line of sight 

[Zooloo-the-Raven]

1 minute ago, Nero.DMC said:

you cannot kill those enemies (not even with the old Dante) outside of the star chart (wich any frame can deal with easily) without first hitting them with dark verse, you had to hit them first to nuke them, it was never free (outside extremely low level and weak enemies that never pose any threat anyway) now you have to first hit them with dark verse and ops you moved too much and he is out of los? too bad for you, you are in a enclosed space? you no longer can move inside the space hitting with dark verse to nuke with tragedy...

The LoS solution is not a balancing solution, is a QoL removal with the excuse of "he has too much range"

It is a balancing solution. It affects what lives and dies very heavily for the vast majority of played content. Regular star chart is what the overwhelming majority of people play, and they do not play it with a frame that can trivialize the content. You and I, doing all of this other stuff at the high end in steel path? We're the outliers. Balance can't just be for us. It has to be for the whole game.

For context, I started only a year ago. Ten percent of my total playtime is still Yareli, my first frame to receive a whole forma so I could put in more mods. I only finished the star chart when Duviri released. The thing that got me into this game and kept me here was that original star chart content and its challenges, which were challenging when I didn't have a fraction of the things I've farmed up now. I may have grown beyond that era, trivializing all of it, but I remember it clearly.

Balance matters for the whole game.

[StarkillerHDX]

This is my final proposal for Dante's Tragedy LoS "problems". I really cannot think of anything better that could largely satisfy both parties than the following proposal that has been mentioned many times before.

The main issue of LoS on Tragedy is the inconsistency/unreliability. Frankly, I believe the best compromise is to let Dark Verse mark enemies which Tragedy will then always hit, regardless of LoS, but only marked enemies. Regular enemies will be affected by Tragedy's LoS as usual. That way, Dante cannot mindlessly nuke low level areas, but remains reliable and satisfying in high level areas. Nothing is more unsatisfying than hitting a corridor full of enemies with Dark Verse, only for Tragedy to let a good portion of the enemies alive because they stood awkwardly next to a corner, even though they are affected by Dark Verse. Dante is a caster, I want to be able to cast effectively without needing to obsessively think about whether I am in the perfect Tragedy detonation position or not, when I have already successfully hit my enemies with Dark Verse.

Don't get me wrong, your goal to fix LoS is admirable and is welcomed for all Frames that already use LoS, but I do not believe that kind of LoS fits on Dante specifically, at least not when comboing Dark Verse and Tragedy. It's not about letting Dante nuke the entire map without doing anything, it's about keeping the Dark Verse and Tragedy combo satisfying to use, and right now Dark Verse/Tragedy builds are not satisfying. They work, but are clunky, and no matter how good the improved LoS check turns out to be, that will unfortunately not change due to the nature of LoS and Dante's combo not mixing well, especially when considering all the different map tiles that are labyrinth-like and narrow. It is simply not satisfying and not as fun, and at that point I can just use a weapon.

I understand that LoS is necessary on Tragedy, I do, but I see no reason to not let Dante hit enemies with Tragedy when they've already been hit by Dark Verse. After all, you do not need to detonate a bomb you've already set up while "looking" at it, right? You should be able to mark them (which already requires LoS in a cone), and then detonate them at your own discretion.

That's all that's really required in my opinion and I believe this would be the most reasonable and balanced outcome. A full revert is admittedly unreasonable and somewhat greedy to expect at this point, but this kind of nerf would be very acceptable. Personally, I'd have no complaints left, and you could even reduce the amount of Overguard gained when killing enemies. Whether you go with a full revert or not, I truly believe that LoS does not belong on enemies affected by Dark Verse.

If you would do that, Dante would be a perfect Frame. Not because he would be disruptive force in matches like some other prominent Frames, but because he would be fun and satisfying to use: a real fan favorite. At the end of the day, it's not the end of the world or anything if you decide against it, that's obvious. But, let's be honest, it would be such a wasted opportunity. A real compromise, a proof that you do listen to the hundreds of pages of people telling you that LoS is not wished on Tragedy.

I hope you will listen. I'm sure this proposed change would not turn Dante into some dominant, disruptive, and automatic play monster. He would be a powerful and fun Warframe who reaches the standard that the current game wants.

Though, if I may be a little cynical, I'm not sure if I'm in the correct place to post this in, as I have no idea if DE reads through these pages. Even the most uninterested of acknowledgments would suffice, DE.

Thank you.

[Phoenician]

1 hour ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

I'm reading this. I'm going to say quite clearly in my own words, what you just said. You want a particular gameplay experience while playing Dante, which you had before and lost. It was coherent, clean, and fun. I'm sympathetic to that desire.

I'd like to add a bit. For many people, this will be the first frame that just comes out of the box, able to handle content in the same smooth way that some other frames can after building and tuning a loadout. If they spent money on this frame, they'll doubly want to keep that original feel, both for attaining a certain experience of power and also because they paid money, and feel they are owed what they bought. Again, I'm sympathetic.

For the sake of this discussion, we can--as you suggest--set aside whether or not Dante is strong, in what contexts he is strong, and what that even means. For me and my standards,  he easily ranks up there as one of the more complete and competent frames for the vast majority of content.

For you and your standards, he has been made significantly clunkier and less fun. Again, with no intent to patronize, I get it. I am listening.

Now here's the but--the part you will disagree with--but believe me, I am making this argument in good faith.

In my opinion, the game is only interesting if enemies are consistently looking at you and fighting you. You need to be opposed--and in complicated ways--or the game becomes trivial. Frames that kill through walls too easily can render much--though not all of the game--irrelevant. I consider this bad for the game's health and design, even if there are frames which already do this. In my mind, I believe those frames shouldn't do this, and Dante shouldn't do this either.

For me, I believe the relative clunkiness is worth ensuring that more content is interesting in the long run, even if it does in fact hurt the clean and fun feeling that you had.

Note that I'm not saying you're wrong. I am disagreeing with an end goal of the game's design. We are arguing for different, incompatible goals for the game and for the player. I hope you can see and understand, and feel sympathy for, people arguing that this is good for the health of the game.

I do understand where you are coming from and I agree, frames shouldn't just be nuking through walls and at ranges you don't even see the radar ping.

In Dantes case however, if you want to nuke through the wall you need to first see those enemies, mark with Dark verse twice, move behind the wall then Tragedy for the nuke. His nuke wasn't a free cast, it required setting up by looking at those enemies which engages your point regarding player/frame/enemy interaction then moving the frame to a different location which engages the activity argument before completing the loop.

We are all aware of what Dante can do and we have all stated multiple times that we don't mind his damage numbers AND range tweaked to healthier but still impactful values, we just want the LOS removed on the 4th ability because its objectively unfun, it requires LOS setup on a different skill then another (worse) LOS check to complete the loop.

Tune his damage numbers, tune his range, balance him properly instead of knee-jerk using LOS as a way to 'balance him' because LOS is not a balancing tool, it's a game mechanic which is certainly useful in various circumstances, just not for Tragedy. We all want the game in a healthy place, this is not the way to achieve that.

The thing I haven't seen mentioned by anyone (could be wrong) is that what was done to Tragedy was something a lot of companies do when they have NO idea how to balance something, they gut it then leave it on the floor for a while until they figure out what to do with it then repackage what they gutted as something equally strong (or sometimes stronger) then want a pat on the back because 'they listened'.

What REALLY pissed people off was the fact ONLY Dante got smacked instead of all frames that can nuke or affect enemies behind obstacles, why? Even MORE people would be here because Saryn was binned, Octavia was binned and many other frames.

Balance correctly and across the board, don't knee jerk and don't target. Dante is not the main offender yet he was made to bite the pillow.

 

1 hour ago, Zooloo-the-Raven said:

Regular star chart is what the overwhelming majority of people play, and they do not play it with a frame that can trivialize the content.

I have to disagree regarding this because every single time I've been on regular star chart from the lowest level mission to the highest? There are at least two squadmates that are using frames that very easily trivialise the content in terms of mass killing,  being immune to everything, massive CCs and any other way you can conceive.

The only players that don't use something that trivialises content are either those that can't or those that LOVE trying real off-meta, whacky and weird stuff that they want to have fun with (more power to those people).

Edited April 9 by Phoenician
Typo