Additive and Multiplicative

[Yssiddo]

Would like a clear response on additive and multiplicative bonuses.

For instance, Point Strike and Arcane Avenger work different. Which one is additive and which is multiplicative?

What about Serration mod?

Hope it's not a duplicate question. Thanks. 

[Tiltskillet]

In player jargon, Point Strike and Serration are usually called additive. It can be confusing because these multiply base numbers, but the reason they're called additive is these get added with other common similar bonuses in their respective calculations.  For instance, if I have  both Point Strike and Argon Scope, the calculation is

Base Crit Chance * ( Point Strike + Argon Scope ) = Total Crit Chance.

If base crit chance is 20% and both mods are maxed the numbers are

20 * ( 1 + 150% + 135% ) = 77%. 

As you can see, Argon Scope and Point Strike are added together instead of multiplying with each other.  Same thing happens with Serration and bonuses like Heavy Caliber.

Avenger is very different, so sometimes gets called multiplicative...even though it's not really. A better word for it in relation to Point Strike would be "absolute" or "final".  If we incorporate its buff to the calculation above we get

( Base Crit Chance * ( Point Strike + Argon Scope )) + Avenger 

or

( 20 * ( 1 + 150% + 135% )) + 45 = 122% . 

Also worth noting, that Avenger gets added together with some similar bonuses like Cat's Eye.

There are damage bonuses that are more clearly multiplicative though, as these multiply the result of the more common "base damage" bonuses (like Serration and Heavy Caliber) instead of being added together with them.  Examples are Roar, Eclipse, Faction Damage, Critical Multiplier, Heavy Attack / Sniper Rifle Combo Counter, and more.  An example of how a calculation with one of these would look is

Base Damage * ( Serration + Heavy Caliber ) * ( Eclipse ) = Total Damage

Since these multiply the base damage multiplication, seemingly small "multiplicative damage" bonuses can be very powerful.

Hopefully that's all clear enough and I didn't goof any of it up, lol.  I'm supposed to be doing homework, and part of my mind is on that.  :/

 

 

[Zakkhar]

2 hours ago, Yssiddo said:

For instance, Point Strike and Arcane Avenger work different. Which one is additive and which is multiplicative?

Wrong question. Point strike modifies (multiplies) base values by % and is additive to other %critical modifiers that also multiply the base values. As in

Quote

base value*PS+base*other relative bonuses=base value*(PS+other relative bonuses).

Arcane avenger is sort of a fixed/flat (unrelative or absolute) crit chance bonus, that doesnt rely on base value at all. It is added outside base value multiplication (doesnt matter if it is end of begining of the equations as multiplication is done first always).

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Critical_Hit#Critical_Chance

When we imply that something is additive or multiplicative we usually talk about Damage in general. Additive means it is additive with other relative bonuses to %dmg, multiplicative it means it is a completely different baseket of mulitipliers that has a neutral value of 1.  Damage formula is basically a multiplication of various baskets: %base damage, elemental damage, crit annd crit damage, multishot and so on. Modifier universally considered as multiplicative is Roar/Faction Damage.

Why we talk about it? Because strategy of maximising the damage is to not put too many eggs into same basket, not only you get diminishing returns of adding more and more of the same, but you also lose values in other baskets, due to how modding is limited by capacity and slots.

Lets follow the example of Serration, which is additive with other %dmg mods and abilities: Heavy Caliber, Primary Merciless, Galvanized Aptitude, Vex Armor.

So lets say you already got Serration slotted and Primary Merciless. That are two slots that are occupied by %dmg relative bonuses (that modify base damage directly). Maxed Serration offers 165% bonus and Primary Merciless offers 360% bonnus. This means your current damage is 100 (you start from 100%)+165+360=625% of base damage. If you were to add lets say Galvanized aptititde and had a good reason to believe it will be up majority of the time, with 2 elements active and sometimes with 3 elements. You would look at 160% to 240% additional %damage bonus. To show diminishing returns. Adding Serration to your empty kit increases your relative damage by 165%, adding Merciless to that setup gives (360%/265%+360)-1=57% if you were to add another 240% that is only 27% increase. So each %dmg you add is offering lesser and lesser relative bonus. But you are occupying slots that can be used for different kind of scaling. That is why often Serration completely replaced by Merciless or/and Aptitude.

Spoiler

Maybe beside the situations where the Aptitide bonus works as a separate basket and is considered multiplicative. There is a list of weapons that have this interaction online, but you should not bother with it at this point reallty, it is only for min maxing purposes.

 

Edited May 7 by Zakkhar