The enemy armour rework may have gone a little overboard and made them too weak

[Rexis12]

6 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Maybe killing heavies on SP should rely on building and using buffs, not facerolling just for picking the right element.

You hear that any Warframe that doesn't have the ability to buff yourself? You deserve to either be put in the trash, or subsume Roar right now. 

Like this is just a mask off. 

We literally have a situation where we are encouraged, incentives, and rewarded for using the right element. And you want to go "NO YOU SHOULD ONLY BE ABLE TO DO WITH ROAR OR ECLIPSE OR MESA DAMAGE BOOST!!!!"

Like piss off mate. 

2 minutes ago, SabreWalrus said:

This thread is about armour scaling and enemies being tissue paper,

Because believe it or not, if armor wasn't changed to be 'tissue paper'. All of these changes would have learned Jack S#&$. 

"Oh magnetic applies a burst of damage"

Oh cool, have fun having that burst of damage only deal 1% of its total value, before further being reduced by a 75% and another 75% due to how Alloy Scaling works. 

6 minutes ago, SabreWalrus said:

That same damage burst also nuking unstripped armoured units after depleting their Overguard because they have such little damage reduction = not excellent

This is a lie, because even Balista Eximus units don't die from the initial burst. 

[SabreWalrus]

11 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

This is another can of worms, everyone who invested in green shards just got screwed over bad. So much Bile just to remove them, and what do I do with them now? If anyone tries to tell me Toxin dots, NO, because enemies are falling over to direct damage before your dots even tick.

It does suck, because obviously full strip is still better than no strip for maximising damage to its fullest potential, but knowing how superfluous it's become definitely makes those shard slots look like they could be better filled by something else... Guess I'll just put Viral/Slash back on my weapon :^)

[Rexis12]

Whoops

3 minutes ago, SabreWalrus said:

It does suck, because obviously full strip is still better than no strip for maximising damage to its fullest potential, but knowing how superfluous it's become definitely makes those shard slots look like they could be better filled by something else... Guess I'll just put Viral/Slash back on my weapon :^)

You mean despite the corrosive still dealing more damage with armor stripped? 

Like did you forget that to?

 

Edited June 20 by Rexis12

[Xylena_Lazarow]

3 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

You hear that any Warframe that doesn't have the ability to buff yourself? Like this is just a mask off. Like piss off mate.

So instead of buffing the kits of outdated frames, or building smarter and sourcing buffs from companions or wherever, we should dumb down gameplay? You have an entire basic star chart to fight easy enemies and learn the game, SP is supposed to push late game players at least a little bit, it no longer does.

[Rexis12]

Just now, Xylena_Lazarow said:

So instead of buffing the kits of outdated frames

So you want all Warframes to play the same and just have buffs in them? No CC focus like Loki, or enemy summoner like Nekros. 

You want to homogenise every Warframes to have a mandatory Damage Buffs to their kits?

2 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

building smarter and sourcing buffs from companions or wherever

You also want companions to be the same? Things like how Nautilus pull should get removed and instead be just another damage buffs. Or Shades invis should be removed and be a damage buffs. Or hell even the Charger Maggots should just give you damage buffs.

3 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

we should dumb down gameplay?

Buddy. 

I am not the person, that's wants the gameplay to just be

"Apply Buff and Deal with issue and #*!% everyone else."

 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

12 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

Buddy. I am not the person, that's wants the gameplay to just be "Apply Buff and Deal with issue and #*!% everyone else."

Well right now it's "close your eyes and hold the funny button" ...is that what you want the gameplay to be?

[Rexis12]

14 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Well right now it's "close your eyes and hold the funny button" ...is that what you want the gameplay to be?

It's always been that, except now it's not just exclusive to the Frames that can buff themselves. 

So again, sorry that you guys are mad now we actually have tools to deal with Overguard that isn't just more rampant DPS. 

[SabreWalrus]

31 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

This is a lie, because even Balista Eximus units don't die from the initial burst. 

It's obvious that you aren't here to discuss or argue about anything in good faith because the entire lens you view the update through is hatred for armour's mere existence, but I will explain the interaction for anyone else who might be reading

When the Overguard breaks, it deals a burst of Electric damage for 3% of the enemy's max Overguard per Magnetic stack. So at 10 stacks, 30% of the Overguard's total hit points is turned into this burst of damage. As enemies scale in level, their Overguard scales. That means this burst of damage gets bigger the higher the level and the higher the Overguard. Armoured enemies cap out at 90% DR from their armour very early, which means a level 9999 armoured enemy has no more DR than a level 500 one. Their health is higher, but so is their Overguard, and there are some units (Thrax) where their Overguard values vastly overtake their health values as they scale. Not only does depleting the Overguard cause this burst of Electric damage, but it also does a forced electric DoT. This electric DoT will continue ticking after the burst of damage, and by nature, electric DoTs tick their damage in a small aoe, so it will continue damaging anything else nearby in high density situations. If armoured enemies' DR scaled above 90% as their levels went up, they would be able to resist this scaling burst of damage and aoe DoT, but right now, the higher the levels go, the more effective it is and the weaker the armoured enemies seem

[Rexis12]

Just now, SabreWalrus said:

level 9999

Oh... 

So it's only an issue for the Level Cap enemy then. 

That's even more hilarious, because that means that for a vast majority of the player baseball that's not even an issue. 

So like, thanks for further proving my point that it's not even the big deal you make it out to be. 

"The Overguard and Magnetic interactions is too broken for enemies at level 9999!"

 

[SabreWalrus]

3 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

Oh... 

It's taken you 10 messages to catch on to what is being discussed in a thread about armour scaling - keyword "scaling" - on enemies. You have been off in a world of your own shouting at people for using Viral/Slash in the starchart. Would you like to engage in the conversation now?

 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

16 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

So again, sorry that you guys are mad now we actually have tools to deal with Overguard that isn't just more rampant DPS. 

This now is not remotely comparable to SP at release, and if you couldn't deal with OG on SP before, then play on normal mode?

[Rexis12]

5 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

This now is not remotely comparable to SP at release, and if you couldn't deal with OG on SP before, then play on normal mode?

Again, sorry we now have actual tools and counter play to Overguard that isn't just rampant DPS. 

 

9 minutes ago, SabreWalrus said:

It's taken you 10 messages to catch on to what is being discussed in a thread about armour scaling - keyword "scaling" - on enemies. You have been off in a world of your own shouting at people for using Viral/Slash in the starchart. Would you like to engage in the conversation now?

 

You know that when most people talk about scaling, normal people don't go straight to the level cap. 

I mean again, sorry I just realized that the main issue is actually at the total top where a vast majority of the players don't actually reach, and instead of you know levels under 1k where most content and players reside. 

My fault I guess. 

[SabreWalrus]

14 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

My fault I guess. 

The terms "level cap" and "higher level" were put to you multiple times since the very first page and you chose not to read

Nobody here wants anything taken away from level 100-500 SP and we don't want any of the elements or statuses to be nerfed. We want enemies beyond level 1000 to be buffed

[g20g10]

28 minutes ago, Rexis12 said:

You know that when most people talk about scaling, normal people don't go straight to the level cap. 

I mean again, sorry I just realized that the main issue is actually at the total top where a vast majority of the players don't actually reach, and instead of you know levels under 1k where most content and players reside. 

My fault I guess. 

Yeah, because when talking about scaling, you don't limit yourself to a certain level. Because that is not scaling. When talking about scaling, we should be looking at the bigger picture. Enemy levels go beyond level 500, for example, and yet now the change in difficulty doesn't really spike up like it should. So enemies now don't really "scale" properly at all.

[CorpseFaction]

This guy is intellectually dishonest to a fault lol

These enemy eHP changes have led to trivial combat and *less* complex game play.

Like it or not, people crave difficult content in warframe to test [insert powerful thing here]. If the entire game was capped to lvl 5 enemies without armor then everything would be overpowered and nothing would be enjoyable beyond the first few missions.

When was the last time you did a non SP earth exterminate by yourself just for fun?

Do you want the entire game to feel like that 24/7??

No? Didn't think so.

[Jaris_Jauhari]

I second SabreWalrus' notion as a player since 2017 with 1.7k hours invested in the game

"To face adversity is to temper steel." - my uncle, a big HEMA fan

[CorpseFaction]

1 hour ago, Jaris_Jauhari said:

I second SabreWalrus' notion as a player since 2017 with 1.7k hours invested in the game

"To face adversity is to temper steel." - my uncle, a big HEMA fan

No, the game must be Non SP earth exterminate with level 5 enemies. That way everything is valid and good and everyone can feel powerful always forever.

 

/s

 

Seriously, why are toxic casuals so against challenge that necessitates interaction and optimal play/strategy.

 

Edited June 21 by CorpseFaction

[Merkranire]

Haha.

I think it’s good. Makes the game easier to farm.

[Balegrim]

On 2024-06-18 at 6:51 PM, SabreWalrus said:

We have access to such high damage outputs that a cap of 90% damage reduction really means nothing.

And therein lies the issue. 90% damage reduction should mean something. It's 10 points away from invincibility. I always thought the model of balancing games around literal millions of damage was so freakin' dumb. If you're doing that you might as well give up on the idea you're going to have a "balanced" game. 

If warframe wants any actual shot at balance 3 things need to happen. A massive nerf to player damage, a much smaller enemy scaling cap, and a spike in enemy damage at medium levels but one that's ultimately far weaker than exists right now at the new highest levels. Enemies need to stop at level 300 or something. Pick a target and balance around the TTK you would expect to be fun for things. We can't have it both ways where enemies level up to 9999 and billions of damage but be like "oh we can have balance". And I'm tired of seeing players pretend they are "good" because they had an insane budget for brain dead mods that trivialize the game (I too have this budget and think it's fun! but it's absolutely brain dead). Warframe is not a game that requires skill to play. Never was. Never will be unless we count back when maybe it was intended as a stealth game. It's not about being hard. My reward for end game builds is pointing my weapons at things and evaporating them with 100% armor strip however I felt like achieving it. 

I personally don't care that some niche group of players want to sit in a level for 15 hours or scale enemies up to level 9999. Calling that "end game" is so ridiculous. And the game shouldn't be developed around, like, all 12 of you. If anything it should be oversight you can get there at all. We get it. You have a big budget for mods and access to all the warframes with the health/shield gate abilities that require almost no skill to use and just paying slight attention to when your health stats turn gray so you re-cheese your invincibility cast that has a low requirement for reflexes or effort to press again.  The only good warframe players are the ones who are super thrifty and figure out how to access crap like steel path real fast on a newbies budget. 

Edited June 24 by Balegrim

[SabreWalrus]

1 hour ago, Balegrim said:

I personally don't care that some niche group of players want to sit in a level for 15 hours or scale enemies up to level 9999. Calling that "end game" is so ridiculous. And the game shouldn't be developed around, like, all 12 of you. If anything it should be oversight you can get there at all. We get it. You have a big budget for mods and access to all the warframes with the health/shield gate abilities that require almost no skill to use and just paying slight attention to when your health stats turn gray so you re-cheese your invincibility cast that has a low requirement for reflexes or effort to press again.  The only good warframe players are the ones who are super thrifty and figure out how to access crap like steel path real fast on a newbies budget. 

I agree that balance in the game is pretty borked, and since we're assuming no player damage nerf will ever happen, that's why we want higher level enemies to be tough. But I hope you realise that coming in and attacking others for how they like to play like this is super toxic. Level 9999 is achieved in Void Cascade in 1 hour. It's achieved in SP Circuit in 1.5 hours. It's achieved in Disruption in about 2 hrs, but can be speedrun in under 1 hour. There are thousands of players reaching and playing level cap daily. And even if there wasn't, if there was "like 12" of us, isn't it pretty ugly to just say "you're a minority so therefore you don't matter"? I do matter, thanks, and you will notice the people playing levels 1000+ are only asking about stuff that affects levels 1000+, we're not trying to affect the game for people who just like to log on and vibe for 20 mins or so. We all love some of the chill aspects of the game. I'm only ever here giving feedback because I love the game as a whole and would like to continue playing it

 

1 hour ago, Balegrim said:

Warframe is not a game that requires skill to play.

I would agree with this if there wasn't such a huge chasm between the people who can solo level cap Void Cascade on shield gaters and those who can't, or the people who can solo 6x3 (macroless) and those who can't. There are a few areas of the game where there is experience and skill expression, and where fully optimised setups are required. It's not a bad thing. The way these kind of conversations always go in circles and boil down to "I don't do level cap and I don't use shield gating, but you're stupid for playing level cap and using shield gaters, and you're not even good at the game btw, in fact you're bad at the game because you play level cap and use shield gaters, I'm better than you" gets really sad and tiring. Where does this attitude of "I choose not to do it so therefore I don't want you to do it either" come from?

 

1 hour ago, Balegrim said:

The only good warframe players are the ones who are super thrifty and figure out how to access crap like steel path real fast on a newbies budget. 

People are now fulling memeing where they're doing modless SP level cap runs where they are killing level 9999 enemies with no mods. Thrifty enough for you?

[alchemyisreal]

1 hour ago, Balegrim said:

And therein lies the issue. 90% damage reduction should mean something. It's 10 points away from invincibility. I always thought the model of balancing games around literal millions of damage was so freakin' dumb. If you're doing that you might as well give up on the idea you're going to have a "balanced" game. 

If warframe wants any actual shot at balance 3 things need to happen. A massive nerf to player damage, a much smaller enemy scaling cap, and a spike in enemy damage at medium levels but one that's ultimately far weaker than exists right now at the new highest levels. Enemies need to stop at level 300 or something. Pick a target and balance around the TTK you would expect to be fun for things. We can't have it both ways where enemies level up to 9999 and billions of damage but be like "oh we can have balance". And I'm tired of seeing players pretend they are "good" because they had an insane budget for brain dead mods that trivialize the game (I too have this budget and think it's fun! but it's absolutely brain dead). Warframe is not a game that requires skill to play. Never was. Never will be unless we count back when maybe it was intended as a stealth game. It's not about being hard. My reward for end game builds is pointing my weapons at things and evaporating them with 100% armor strip however I felt like achieving it. 

I personally don't care that some niche group of players want to sit in a level for 15 hours or scale enemies up to level 9999. Calling that "end game" is so ridiculous. And the game shouldn't be developed around, like, all 12 of you. If anything it should be oversight you can get there at all. We get it. You have a big budget for mods and access to all the warframes with the health/shield gate abilities that require almost no skill to use and just paying slight attention to when your health stats turn gray so you re-cheese your invincibility cast that has a low requirement for reflexes or effort to press again.  The only good warframe players are the ones who are super thrifty and figure out how to access crap like steel path real fast on a newbies budget. 

I just saw 2,200 eclipse buff, nourish, roar and jade weapon buff on a warframe stream. Nothing in the game can survive 1 bullet from all those buffs and that's why I think only solo players will get hurt by enemies being too strong. Warframe is a business and wants to cater to a larger audience and give players an easier time so that they can play longer. If you think you got filtered out then you are no longer the target audience tough luck.

[vondragon1]

Skimmed through the thread but I think 90% fine for normal mode but steel path should have had a 99% (or even 99.9%) cap. When it was 1st introduced steel path was the hard mode and what encouraged you to build better now it just a free resource drop chance and mod drop chance booster

[DrivaMain]

On 2024-06-22 at 3:37 AM, CorpseFaction said:

Seriously, why are toxic casuals so against challenge that necessitates interaction and optimal play/strategy.

Unfortunately, my friend, they are the majority and DE listens to them constantly. Those wishing "real" challenge should look for another game where the developers have the guts to say "No" to them, case in point: FromSoftware. The Best "challenge" DE can do without angering them too much is to stop players from automating the game without their input (see Jade Light Eximus).

[DTRaptor]

Honestly, I think the new enemy armor scaling was the easier way for DE to re-tune the game at higher levels. To me, the elephant in the room is how wildly unbalanced the tools at our disposal are, but I get it, not every weapon meant to be available for a new player should be expected to function at a reasonable level in the endgame.

Overall, I like the new armor scaling, I now have more toys to play with in Steel Path instead of using my "most powerful" weapons. Steel Path was never hard, just more bullet-spongy than normal mode to me.

[Merkranire]

10 hours ago, vondragon1 said:

Skimmed through the thread but I think 90% fine for normal mode but steel path should have had a 99% (or even 99.9%) cap. When it was 1st introduced steel path was the hard mode and what encouraged you to build better now it just a free resource drop chance and mod drop chance booster

People started treating SP as the next logical step in their progression and, unsurprisingly, found an unbalanced mess of a gamemode that asked you to throw away the rules you learned about how the game works as well as most of your options to use (where if players explored their options more, they wouldn’t need SP to feel challenged since everything starts modless for the broadest build canvas and the game only gets harder after level 30)

Because it wasn’t meant to be accessible; it wasn’t the next logical step, players just convinced each other and themselves it was because it had higher level enemies, missing the fact that those levels and the modifiers on the mode made it completely unbalanced (while simultaneously pointing out that fact, wtf?), which made it great as a catch-all for players who willingly narrowed their range of options for the sake of testing the most min-maxed builds they could make. I liked what SP was, and now it’s been made as accessible as the community thought it was supposed to be

Edited June 24 by Merkranire