Can we have a non-pregnant Jade skin?

[plastacia]

On 2024-06-20 at 2:37 PM, PopocraftGD said:

It makes no sense lore wise, since the baby is already out, and on top of all it's ugly.

????? nobody and most certainly devs don’t care what u think ab her appearance i think she’s badass if we are getting personal opinions

[plastacia]

10 minutes ago, WanderingJoe said:

I have a friend who actively leaves public sessions when he sees a Jade, for reasons personal to him and his family. My own opinion aside, I'd love to have the choice to play the new frame without making him uncomfortable.

can’t he just play friends only then

[WanderingJoe]

2 minutes ago, plastacia said:

can’t he just play friends only then

He could, but not with any friends that want to use jade. Some of our friends are on your side and like her appearance. They're restricted to not playing as her out of respect for him if we all play together.

[plastacia]

2 minutes ago, WanderingJoe said:

He could, but not with any friends that want to use jade. Some of our friends are on your side and like her appearance. They're restricted to not playing as her out of respect for him if we all play together.

i see, if possible i guess you could make a fashion to where it is unnoticeable that she has a bump or maybe stay out of his sight, as jades can go pretty high

[WanderingJoe]

Im not exactly sure how to make quotes from other threads so Ill just quote myself on this,

"You cant gaslight or guilt trip people into being less uncomfortable about something. Warframe isn't like being out in public, its entertainment. The idea that you're not allowed to speak out against certain type of messaging is ridiculous. We're not obligated to agree with DE's decisions just like other people aren't obligated to agree with us. The idea that its fine that you're uncomfortable about something but that you cant say it... We have autonomy, we can think for ourselves. Stopping people from thinking for themselves and seeing something that is in plain sight? People are not going to take that. It goes both ways. If people are trying to bring something to DE's attention that lessens their experience and someone is asking "Why are you trying to do that? Its not that big of a deal," It's not a good argument. Because if it wasn't that big of a deal, they would not have put it into the game. The choice to portray Jade in such a way after her quest is something everyone agrees has significance, we're just disagreeing on which significance it has.

Don't ever let someone try to make you feel stupid for caring about something because they'd be doing the exact same thing as you, possibly even worse, if they were in your position. To everyone who feels uncomfortable about how Jade looks, and you see someone who is trying to tell you that you shouldn't be complaining, they are complaining even more than you are to you, something they would not spend the time or effort to do if it truly did not matter. Never let people do that to you."
 
I at the very least  expect anyone reading these threads can tell which discussions are made in good faith and which ones are designed to shutdown any opinion not their own. Ironic really... that the ones that want to take tolerance as their standpoint are the most intolerant ones speaking on these threads. as I have in the past, I encourage people to post as though they were sending a letter to DE. There's nothing much to be gained about trying to convince the way that you feel. Think for yourselves about the matter, carefully consider your stance, and then please return to let us know how you feel about this request of a subset of the community that's only asking for the imagery to be optional, much like Kullervo and his auxiliary knives.

[WanderingJoe]

You know, I actually agree with you there. I'd love it if DE could help me out with that. An.... optional toggle of some kind or something like that.

[ChangelingRain]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

No she is not. Please take a class in female anatomy after birth.

It's clear sex-ed is failing in public schools.

Are you telling me the glowing orb that represents pregnancy is supposed to stick around after you give birth? It definitely leaves Jade's body in the quest, though, so I don't think you're right.

[Martaskis]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

People feeling uncomfortable with a belly sure must hate Grendel too huh?

Its a dumb thing to be upset over.

I'm sorry, are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset? 

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)AnnabelleNewell said:

She's honestly a solid frame, she needs a bit of work to make her abilities a smidge stronger is all because she can be very squishy in combat and flight is rather slow on her 4th.

 I feel your honest option is more valid in another thread, instead of this one. As this one is discussing the potential for changing her look. 

As I am reading these comments, I am simply disgusted with how we are treating each other on this issue, that being said everyone is entitled to "their" option. However, if you cannot see the validity in the claims of this issue then you are not understanding the issue at the core. 

On 2024-06-24 at 10:59 AM, Circle_of_Psi said:

I'm curious to why DE hasn't responded to this yet

I am almost wondering this as well, maybe the thread is not gaining enough traction? I understand that DE maybe going dark, but they have always been upstanding with community standards on addressing issues. 

[Vaz2017]

On 2024-06-24 at 1:46 PM, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

To be fair, I think DE's also giving it the Hildryn wait and see, since it doesn't seem like Jade really is as controversial as people are making her out to be. Like most of the negative reception seems to have peaked a day or two after her release saw a fair bit of positive reception, and has been largely overtaken by indifference or more gameplay-focused issues since. 

I'm still VERY interested in a response, and believe one is needed, and am sure I'm not alone. I just don't like posting again after I've made my points, and I'm probably not alone in that either.

[Erasculio]

On 2024-06-22 at 4:44 AM, WanderingJoe said:

Her appearance makes me uncomfortable.

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

30 minutes ago, Martaskis said:

I'm sorry, are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?

Yes. Ignoring how all human beings have had past experiences with childbirth (you were born, I hope?), what is the alternative?

Never walking outside because you may see a pregnant woman?

IMO, this entire discussion feels a lot like pregnancy discrimination. As if someone being pregnant were something forbidden, ugly or terrifying ("no one has said this" - see the quote about Jade being ugly).

Pregnancy is (literally) a part of life. To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

[Vaz2017]

Just now, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

Yes. Ignoring how all human beings have had past experiences with childbirth (you were born, I hope?), what is the alternative?

Never walking outside because you may see a pregnant woman?

IMO, this entire discussion feels a lot like pregnancy discrimination. As if someone being pregnant were something forbidden, ugly or terrifying ("no one has said this" - see the quote about Jade being ugly).

Pregnancy is (literally) a part of life. To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

One of the reasons we forget what it was like being born is because it's traumatic.

Anyway, comparing this to racism and sexism is disingenuous. There's an obvious difference, when you're not just playing semantics to hurt people.

Pregnancy is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's pregnant, I can in fact look away. leave, etc., and it's not going to be a long encounter even if I don't. Jade's protruding uterus is a design choice in a game, and Jade is in every public squad currently. No, I'm not going to stop joining public squads, because then I'll just be stuck with the thought that I'm doing it to avoid Jade, and that defeats the purpose of avoidance.

To the people asking for this, it's important. To you, it clearly isn't. To anyone else, it isn't. To DE, it shouldn't be. So where's the harm to you if a little graphical change is made or a toggle provided? Why are you choosing to fight this?

To answer "yes" to the question "are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?" is incredibly cruel. The wording of the question doesn't quite make it explicit, but it's obviously about people who have had traumatic experiences with childbirth, such as forced birth, tokophobia, medical abuse, miscarriage, or maternal mortality. It may be a part of life, but it is not an everyday thing, and it can go wrong in many horrible ways. Until recently, it was common for women to die in childbirth, and it's still very much a thing that can happen.

[Martaskis]

8 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

Yes. Ignoring how all human beings have had past experiences with childbirth (you were born, I hope?), what is the alternative?

Never walking outside because you may see a pregnant woman?

IMO, this entire discussion feels a lot like pregnancy discrimination. As if someone being pregnant were something forbidden, ugly or terrifying ("no one has said this" - see the quote about Jade being ugly).

Pregnancy is (literally) a part of life. To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

While, I see your point to this, the original reason for my post was to call out who I had quoted. 
However, I feel that there is some positivity that can be brought from the negativity of this forum. We can speak our minds on asking for a toggle, and or a skin. This is over an internet forum, so I can't say I understand how people are feeling over the issue. While that might be the case of my own option I still stand next to their original post. 

To address the first part of your post, as I said I see your point and wanted to address it, as I see reason too. If someone feels "uncomfortable" we simply cannot say, oh, just brush it off it'll be fine! The alternative is to not drag someone down just because they have an emotional response. Again, while I cannot understand the reason why people are upset I can see the reasons why they are. You know, by reading? And, yes I do agree with you on a certain aspect of pregnancy discrimination, but as the original post implies they had 0 idea that it would be like that and that is not far to a consumer of this game. While most will not agree with my stance on how I am approaching this, I hope we all can find positive reactions and be kinder to each other. 

[Martaskis]

4 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

To answer "yes" to the question "are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?" is incredibly cruel. The wording of the question doesn't quite make it explicit, but it's obviously about people who have had traumatic experiences with childbirth, such as forced birth, tokophobia, medical abuse, miscarriage, or maternal mortality. It may be a part of life, but it is not an everyday thing, and it can go wrong in many horrible ways. Until recently, it was common for women to die in childbirth, and it's still very much a thing that can happen.

Just to make sure we are on the same page here, please see what I quoted and revert back to my original question. The wording of my question is in place to ask for the persons reasons. It was never cruel to ask the question why that person felt it was a dumb idea that people were upset. As you pretty much solve the question, if humans felt upset over the issue it has a likely reason to be that way. 

[SirKeksalot]

24 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

That's not at all the same. The concerns people express are not bigoted in nature, and they've mostly been articulated quite well. I don't see their side, but I can understand it. In a game that's not specifically about this subject, knowing that some people have their own trauma over it or other reasons to take issue with it, I don't see the harm in an OPTIONAL off-switch for it.

27 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

To me, it's amazing to see a character who resembles a pregant woman acting as a hero - this is a kind of representation we almost never see.

Cheers to that, but not everyone sees that here. Some have other emotional responses. They don't want pregnant people to be silenced, as some do with queer people, poc, or women; they're thinking of bad experiences or rational fears and don't need it presented in this way with no recourse. Personally, coming from my own queer perspective, I find Jade empowering. Other people don't. That's ok. I just want this Warframe to make everyone happy, even if it can't do that in the same way for us all.

[Erasculio]

9 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

One of the reasons we forget what it was like being born is because it's traumatic.

 

No. We don't remember what it was like being born because our brains are not developed enough at birth to make this kind of long lasting memory. You may think it's "traumatic", but that's just your interpretation of a completely natural and desired phenomenon.

9 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

Pregnancy is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's pregnant, I can in fact look away. leave, etc.

Being black is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's back, I can in fact look away, leave, etc.

Being trans is not part of my life and will never be. If I go out and see a stranger who's trans, I can in fact look away, leave, etc.

Do you realize what you sound like?

9 minutes ago, Vaz2017 said:

To answer "yes" to the question "are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset?" is incredibly cruel.

No, it's literally how life is. You can bury your head in the sand and pretent that pregnancies don't exist, but that won't change the world around you.

 

7 minutes ago, Martaskis said:

If someone feels "uncomfortable" we simply cannot say, oh, just brush it off it'll be fine!

Not only we can, we should.

Say, for example, that someone had an elderly loved one who just died.

Do you think that person would be justified if they came here and said, "Seeing anyone who looks like an elderly character reminds me of my late loved one. DE should allow us to remove all elderly characters from the game"?

Of course they wouldn't.

We should not expect DE to censor what we see everyday in the streets. If a common sight in any city is enough to trigger a player, the issue lies within the player, not within the game.

[Martaskis]

30 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

Not only we can, we should.

Say, for example, that someone had an elderly loved one who just died.

Do you think that person would be justified if they came here and said, "Seeing anyone who looks like an elderly character reminds me of my late loved one. DE should allow us to remove all elderly characters from the game"?

Of course they wouldn't.

We should not expect DE to censor what we see everyday in the streets. If a common sight in any city is enough to trigger a player, the issue lies within the player, not within the game.

So it's cool to not have empathy for someone's suffering? I think what you are saying is correct, and what I am saying is correct. But let's break this down so we can have a civil conversation on this. 

"Do you think that person would be justified if they came here and said, "Seeing anyone who looks like an elderly character reminds me of my late loved one. DE should allow us to remove all elderly characters from the game"?" 

Again, while I cannot see reasons why someone would. We have to understand that traumatic experiences are traumatic for a reason, what if you came on here with an issue and someone said hey, its not an issue blow it off? 

"Of course they wouldn't."

But somehow, players still do....... 

"We should not expect DE to censor what we see everyday in the streets. If a common sight in any city is enough to trigger a player, the issue lies within the player, not within the game." 


This is the part I can agree to disagree with, it's not just this post, go back and look at all the other posts that people have; created, replied, chatted in. I do not see DE changing anything on the frame, while I agree on the OP's post try to understand the perspective of others, While I cannot understand your reasonings for seeing that way, I won't fault you in your option, I am just glad we can have a conversation. 

[WanderingJoe]

1 hour ago, Erasculio said:

What if someone said that a black NPC made them uncomfortable?

That a female-looking warframe made them uncomfortable?

That a non-binary warframe made them uncomfortable?

Would you ask DE to remove representation from the game because some people feel "uncomfortable"?

You sound like the kind of person who takes their baby to a movie theatre.

[Erasculio]

3 minutes ago, Martaskis said:

So it's cool to not have empathy for someone's suffering?

No, it's cool to understand that the real world is not social media, in which people easily block & ignore anything they don't like.

Learning to deal with frustration, with things that are part of the world and that will not change, is necessary in order to live (at least, live outside of Plato's cave).

A pregnant woman is not something intrinsically "bad", or "ugly" or "evil" to be censored. If someone has an issue with them, the solution is not to censor the pregnant woman, rather for the person to work on their own issues. Is is easy? No. Is it painless? No. But it's better than burying their head in the sand and pretending their problem does not exist.

[WanderingJoe]

Trying to call people sexist, racist, homophobic and all the ists and isms under the sun to try and throw the weight of other issues behind your remarks just shows you don't have enough confidence in your ability to confront the stance that an optional appearance that you could choose not to partake in has no downsides for you beyond the fact that you want to win and feel like you have a moral victory. Everyone else is having a discussion, you're having an argument.

[SirKeksalot]

1 hour ago, Erasculio said:

A pregnant woman is not something intrinsically "bad", or "ugly" or "evil" to be censored. If someone has an issue with them, the solution is not to censor the pregnant woman, rather for the person to work on their own issues. Is is easy? No. Is it painless? No. But it's better than burying their head in the sand and pretending their problem does not exist.

That is right, but censorship is not what people are asking for. They want an OPTIONAL function to disable pregnancy in-game while being shot at. They don't want it gone, they want the option to avoid something that may be upsetting to some--not because they're bigoted, but because this is an unexpected aspect of the frame that none of the promotional material discloses and, as op mentioned, brings up trauma for some.

And believe me, I know all too well that you can't just ignore or shut out your problems. That's a mistake that's robbed me of years of happiness I could have had if I faced my demons sooner. But there's a difference between that and having those problems shoved in your face unexpectedly, as in op's case.

Edited June 26 by SirKeksalot

[(XBOX)Omega399]

2 hours ago, Martaskis said:

I'm sorry, are you saying that people who had past experiences with childbirth shouldn't be upset? 

I think what they're insinuating is that some people have been co-opting other peoples tragedies for selfish and superficial reasons, and that others are too blinded by their own grief to understand in the moment that not everyone going through that trauma responds the same way or is triggered by the same things.

Its fine to be upset for those who are suffering, its important to put your thoughts out there and have your voice heard, but at the same time you have to admit, demanding that people change something for what is honestly at this point a knee-jerk reaction, one born more out of disappointment and frustration than anything else, is kind of extreme.

Time heals, and time allows for cooler heads. Nevertheless, its important that their opinions are out there, and its important for people who disagree to also speak up.

2 hours ago, Vaz2017 said:

I'm still VERY interested in a response, and believe one is needed, and am sure I'm not alone. I just don't like posting again after I've made my points, and I'm probably not alone in that either.

I agree that they should probably acknowledge it, but I also think waiting till August to actually decide whether or not its worth persuing in greater depth is the smartest thing they could do.

2 hours ago, Vaz2017 said:

To the people asking for this, it's important. To you, it clearly isn't. To anyone else, it isn't. To DE, it shouldn't be. So where's the harm to you if a little graphical change is made or a toggle provided? Why are you choosing to fight this?

If you look to Halo Infinite and Halo MCC, and ask why there can't be a toggle for Fractures armor over there, you will find it to be the same ouroboros of a question you have asked here.

Simply put: its Hydroids old undertow ability; shallow, but but it has a deep impact on the playerbase as silly as it may be. (Also you will get dragged in and not see it coming.)

 

[WanderingJoe]

Five pages already huh? I think the lengthy discussion in this thread (yes, I know ive had much to contribute that) demonstrates that this is a controversial issue. Asking for everyone to be comfortable is the part that I don't understand, why that part is controversial. It boggles the mind why people who demand coexistence of Jade alongside other frames cant consider the coexistence of players wanting to have different kinds of fashionframe be available for the same warframe. Because that's what this all comes down to at the end of the day. "Can we make jade look different in this way if we want to?" Some people seem to be very offended that someone dares to ask such a question.

Edited June 26 by WanderingJoe

[Circle_of_Psi]

5 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

Trying to call people sexist, racist, homophobic and all the ists and isms under the sun to try and throw the weight of other issues behind your remarks just shows you don't have enough confidence in your ability to confront the stance that an optional appearance that you could choose not to partake in has no downsides for you beyond the fact that you want to win and feel like you have a moral victory. Everyone else is having a discussion, you're having an argument.

Asking for everyone to be comfortable is the part that I don't understand, why that part is controversial. It boggles the mind why people who demand coexistence of Jade alongside other frames cant consider the coexistence of players wanting to have different kinds of fashionframe be available for the same warframe. Because that's what this all comes down to at the end of the day. "Can we make jade look different in this way if we want to?" Some people seem to be very offended that someone dares to ask such a question.

Like most people who can't handle being wrong, there is a post that is very sexist towards the oppiest gender still floating around, welcome the forums, Joe, when you are not allowed to have any rights or feelings and you must be put down in your place and accept that people have a moral victory over you and how dare you be offended by "X" cuz your otherwise sexist, racist, homophobic and all the ists and isms under the sun cuz you disagree with my views.

 

This is what we're becoming and it's never going to stop, Humans used to be smart, collective and loving, Now look at us xD

Edited June 26 by Circle_of_Psi

[Circle_of_Psi]

Besides this topic (and the others) turning into flame wars, it's still shocking to me that DE has -yet- to even perk up about this, considering that the community is legit at each other's throats at this point.

I'm a tat bit worried this will go over then just bickering in forum posts.

Edited June 26 by Circle_of_Psi

[(XBOX)Omega399]

2 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

Five pages already huh? I think the lengthy discussion in this thread (yes, I know ive had much to contribute that) demonstrates that this is a controversial issue.

Not really? There was at least 2 or 3 people who didn't know how to use the quote function causing the page count to get inflated.

2 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

Asking for everyone to be comfortable is the part that I don't understand, why that part is controversial. It boggles the mind why people who demand coexistence of Jade alongside other frames cant consider the coexistence of players wanting to have different kinds of fashionframe be available for the same warframe. Because that's what this all comes down to at the end of the day.

Because there's a point where people aren't asking for that, and others can see when it happens.

They see the hypocrisy displayed by specific folks who's entire reasoning behind demanding a toggle is no different from the complaints against Hildryn or Yareli Pandea when they were revealed. They also know those individuals are the kinds of people who would stand idly by, if not aggressively defend against their criticisms if certain frames were to make them uncomfortable as well.

2 hours ago, WanderingJoe said:

"Can we make jade look different in this way if we want to?" Some people seem to be very offended that someone dares to ask such a question.

This would be fine if it were merely pushing for her Deluxe skin to be like Mirage Oneiro, Excalibur Zato, Khora Urushu, etc. (Which change the base look *and* animations), but that discussion keeps being pushed aside at the behest of people who just want to push a narrative of controversy for superficial reasons.