I dislike the new resistances/status/armor rework.

[Merkranire]

Just now, kuciol said:

You are talking about non steel path when elemental mods alone kill everything just fine. You dont need spreadsheet for that. I didnt chase anything like you try to very hard to accuse me in futile attempt to ridicule argument you cant counter.

You just speak nonsense at this point. Everything works in normal starchart, there are no wrinkles and no meta there. You can kill everything with anything. There were literally 3 units you wanted to mod for and that was bombards, heavy gunners and necramechs. If you modded against those 3 everything else didnt matter. You try to justify your point of view based on something that never happened and you clearly are clueless how resistances actually worked.

Yes I was talking about and it’s safe to assume I will talk about non-SP content because that’s the part of the game (or used to be, not sure of its state now) where things like excessive amounts of armour weren’t bonkers unbalanced to the point that SP throws the rulebook out the window.

Yes, more things work in the non-SP portion of the game, which is great and should have clued people into the idea of SP being a place where fewer things work and to not expect it to be a fair or balanced game mode, but you’re still working from the modless baseline even then; you remember the Grendel missions? You ever tried just seeing what our gear does on its own merit before you start slapping mods and arcanes and whatnot on? Because I can tell you from experience that damage types are worth considering when you’re not loaded up on redundant amounts of damage like you’re going to tackle 9999 SP and you’re just doing a level 50 bounty while taking advantage of whatever slots and capacity that level 50 content lets you free up to customise alternatively

You say things like “Build like you never want to change” and I’m thinking “Wow. That’s not healthy in a game with this many options to draw upon”.

[kuciol]

No, i say now we have meaningfull options, you say spreadsheet that nobody cared about was better and that is just wrong. I want to complete the mission not think about every single enemy that i kill in 1000s within few minutes. You surely used 3 different weapons against corpus lvl 20. Right?

Edited Wednesday at 12:50 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

Just now, kuciol said:

No, i say now we have meaningfull options, you say spreadsheet that nobody cared about was better and that is just wrong. I want to complete the mission not think about every single enemy that i kill in 1000s within few minutes.

We had meaningful options, now they’re less distinctive. The armour change made it so enemies melt faster regardless of the damage type, that’s the thing you should be crowing about.

I don’t know why you act like you care about options when you’ve made it clear that you just want whatever lets you play dynasty warriors light with as little consideration for how you build as possible, which there have always been sooooo many more options to draw upon that also let you do that if you were fine with making different builds, you just need to understand their various limits and, y’know, never hit them, and then on top of that are the rest of the possible options if you’re fine with some actual gameplay.

It’s like you’re jumping into a third person shooter buildcrafting-to-customise-gameplay game to neither third person shoot or buildcraft-to-customise-gameplay. And this wouldn’t be the first time I’ve thought this while looking around

[kuciol]

Because i can now use something that has impact on gameplay? Its not just numbers anymore that made no sense. You had 1 unit that had shield armor and health and every single thing was resistant to different elements. Who the hell would care about that? You chose something that would kill it. All your arguments are pointless, pompous speeches that never happened in a game. You act like we had to actually fight every single enemy, when we didnt. Your options were only on paper.

[Merkranire]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because i can now use something that has impact on gameplay? Its not just numbers anymore that made no sense. You had 1 unit that had shield armor and health and every single thing was resistant to different elements. Who the hell would care about that? You chose something that would kill it. All your arguments are pointless, pompous speeches that never happened in a game. You act like we had to actually fight every single enemy, when we didnt. Your options were only on paper.

What was stopping you from using the thing before? Nothing stops me from using everything I’ve earned aside from my simply being unable to use it (in understandable and expected ways because I knew at least the basics), which being unable to use a thing as effectively as another thing links into the whole “Role for gear and builds and distinctive reasons for using either of them”

[kuciol]

2 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

What was stopping you from using the thing before? Nothing stops me from using everything I’ve earned aside from my simply being unable to use it (in understandable and expected ways because I knew at least the basics), which being unable to use a thing as effectively as another thing links into the whole “Role for gear and builds and distinctive reasons for using either of them”

Because it was pointless. Now its not. Why should i care about every single resistance the faction has if i dont fight enemies 1 on 1? I use things that work good enough so i wont have to swap weapon 3 times a second. Now it is impactfull, now i can use specific element against faction not just this few enemies within faction but not this oh and if you get somebody in a team that strips shields/armor you get nothing. It was stupid no matter how you try to twist it.

[Merkranire]

Just now, kuciol said:

Because it was pointless. Now its not. Why should i care about every single resistance the faction has if i dont fight enemies 1 on 1? I use things that work good enough so i wont have to swap weapon 3 times a second. Now it is impactfull, now i can use specific element against faction not just this few enemies within faction but not this oh and if you get somebody in a team that strips shields/armor you get nothing. It was stupid no matter how you try to twist it.

What you’re describing regarding the past had very simple solutions, and what you’re describing regarding the present sounds an awful lot like there’s no difference in damage types. As I’m experiencing right now. Which was also a thing that happened in the past when you simply built beyond the content that you were doing. And would also have let you do it with the old system in higher-level content just with the armour changes.

Where is the impactful gameplay coming from again…? Because what you’re describing sounds an awful lot like homogenisation, and the impact and differences comes from… your gun particles looking different

[trst]

1 hour ago, Merkranire said:

I posit that everyone who plays like you’re describing, utilising a handful of options they consider worth using and binning off nearly everything they earned after they settled on their forever builds, was missing out, both in terms of finding satisfaction with new rewards, as well as alternative gameplay when one style wears out its welcome.

I’d say they’re still missing out, and they don’t even know it

I don't want to diminish the value you got out of the old system but this is very false.

Meta builds that overpowered the resistance system had a lot of wiggle room for whatever utility, qol, or whatever other inclusions someone wanted. Including those did not come at the cost of losing the ability to instantly delete enemies even with resisted damage. Especially when weapons don't exist in a vacuum and can be supported by frame abilities, set mods, and companions.

If anyone was missing out on anything it's the actual min-maxers running 8+ Forma builds who didn't even enjoy min-maxing in the first place. But nobody had to get remotely close to that point to overpower resistances.

Edited Wednesday at 01:31 AM by trst

[Merkranire]

16 minutes ago, trst said:

I don't want to diminish the value you got out of the old system but this is very false.

Meta builds that overpowered the resistance system had a lot of wiggle room for whatever utility, qol, or whatever other inclusions someone wanted. Including those did not come at the cost of losing the ability to instantly delete enemies even with resisted damage. Especially when weapons don't exist in a vacuum and can be supported by frame abilities, set mods, and companions. The variety you talk about was still present for everyone else without needing to reduce their TTK on enemies.

If anyone was missing out on anything it's the actual min-maxers running 8 Forma builds who didn't even enjoy min-maxing in the first place. But nobody had to get remotely close to that point to overpower resistances.

I agree that the 8-forma’s were definitely missing out, but the players you’re talking about weren’t exactly using everything they earned either.

I’m pretty sure you’ve heard players lament that they have to change their builds to keep up with the meta, or that a piece of kit can’t be made as effective as another piece of kit, in a game that by design starts at like level 15 and I’m still doing level 30 content 2k hours in. I don’t think people view jumping into something lower-level than SP as a chance to expand their options, which I always found weird and inconsistent

edit: Though thinking about it, I’d probably rescind my claim that 8-forma’s are missing out; they’re pushing things more and have even more options available in a way, where they’re missing out is when they get stuck on the one build or loadout and can’t bring themselves to mix things up, which is one of the inherent risks of playing with forma, but is also a risk of the “One build to rule them all” mindset

Edited Wednesday at 01:48 AM by Merkranire

[kuciol]

Dmg types dont work in vacuum, there are also status effects to consider, frame synergies etc. In old system it was just not realistic in any way to prepare for situation. You didnt use 3 weapons against single bursa, because thats how many resistances it could have depending on what you were shooting at (shield, armor or after armor strip). So we never considered it and went for something good enough in all situations. You talk about options that didnt matter, in content where you can use whatever, in situations that never happened. Thats your whole argument and you make more and more ridiculous claims. You dont want to convince anyone, you look for validation.

[Merkranire]

19 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Dmg types dont work in vacuum, there are also status effects to consider, frame synergies etc. In old system it was just not realistic in any way to prepare for situation. You didnt use 3 weapons against single bursa, because thats how many resistances it could have depending on what you were shooting at (shield, armor or after armor strip). So we never considered it and went for something good enough in all situations. You talk about options that didnt matter, in content where you can use whatever, in situations that never happened. Thats your whole argument and you make more and more ridiculous claims. You dont want to convince anyone, you look for validation.

I seriously wish you’d stop trying to school me on what kind of thinking went into alternative approaches to what you were doing when I’m the one who only went and did it.

I’m also seriously not looking for validation from a bunch of lumps who can only sit around and act like they’re oh-so clever when they do something I could do, especially when they have all the imagination of a walnut and the playing capability of… a walnut. If I was, you’d think I’d be nicer to you.

I want the old mid-mission wrinkles back, and I seriously cannot give two #*!%s whether you engage with it or not or what you think of those who would choose to do so; whether that takes the form of the old damage type system or something else (when we already had it in the form of the old damage type system) does not matter to me, I want to have a way to care more about what I’m fighting and what I’m doing and what I’m building for and to appreciate the impacts of my choices. And most of this has been me arguing that it was a thing worth preserving with people who I do not care what they do with themselves, just understand it’s not what I like or even what makes an interesting game.

edit: Correction, it’s not what I always like; endless invincible carnage and not thinking about stuff can be fun in moderation

Edited Wednesday at 02:30 AM by Merkranire

[kuciol]

And i dont want that crap back because some noname from internet needs to feel like he is better than other because he plays suboptimal stuff just so he can min max, that is the most ridicilous thing ive ever seen on this forum. 

 

It has nothing to do with meta, imagination or whatever hidden insult you want to throw. The game just doesnt play the way for old system to be good. No matter what you say you wont bend reality.

[Merkranire]

26 minutes ago, kuciol said:

And i dont want that crap back because some noname from internet needs to feel like he is better than other because he plays suboptimal stuff just so he can min max, that is the most ridicilous thing ive ever seen on this forum. 

 

It has nothing to do with meta, imagination or whatever hidden insult you want to throw. The game just doesnt play the way for old system to be good. No matter what you say you wont bend reality.

It does play in a way that the old system was good, interweaving gear and kit together while rewarding gameplay in a way that only a third person shooter could. That’s why I did it for years even if you weren’t interested

And I’m so over players like you calling the shots, simplifying the game to a detrimental degree; I’m pretty sure I’ve made it clear in the past that I had zero problems with you guys playing the way you did, hell I’d defend if not actively engage in it as well. But now there’s vanishingly little left for alternative and rewarding gameplay that involves actual thought beyond whatever simplified gameplay you typically experience.

 

By this point, despite all my attempts at clarification that I’m not talking about what you seem to think I am, I have to posit; how would you argue about anything that involves skill that the person you’re arguing with neither engaged in or were interested in learning?

[kuciol]

Yes, yes you were special and used 3 different weapons against single bombard. You are so cool you have no idea. Your post just proves that you are looking for validation but i wont give you any. Its clear for everyone that you just want to feel being good at something.

Edited Wednesday at 03:12 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Yes, yes you were special and used 3 different weapons against single bombard. You are so cool you have no idea. Your post just proves that you are looking for validation but i wont give you any. Its clear for everyone that you just want to feel being good at something.

So then tell me how to not come across like that, you [other person]

Edited Wednesday at 03:14 AM by Merkranire

[Merkranire]

7 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Yes, yes you were special and used 3 different weapons against single bombard. You are so cool you have no idea. Your post just proves that you are looking for validation but i wont give you any. Its clear for everyone that you just want to feel being good at something.

Take my argument, and rephrase it to be more acceptable to you so that you look at it not through the projected concept of seeking validation, but what it’s actually trying to say

[kuciol]

No, you didnt make any argument at all. You just say in various ways how you are better than me because you try to play horde shooter like its dark souls.

[Merkranire]

1 minute ago, kuciol said:

No, you didnt make any argument at all. You just say in various ways how you are better than me because you try to play horde shooter like its dark souls.

Then I’ll say I’m not better than you for playing a horde shooter like it’s got more depth and nuance than you typically experience. We’re different playstyles, valid in their value.

So now that that’s been addressed, have a shot at rephrasing what I’ve been saying, because I can’t keep dealing with people like you if you’re going to latch onto something that’s not meant to be there.

Have a shot at understanding what I’m trying to say; you’d be surprised how much more patience I have for people who give things a shot versus those who act like they know better

[kuciol]

But its not valid. Nobody played like you discribed because its not realistic in this game. Its impossible by the sheer amount of enemies thrown at us at any given point and how convoluted the resistances were when 1 enemy has 3 different weakneses depending on what you actually hit.

 

What you say is utter nonesense not aplicable in any way, shape or form. Also you act like you are better this entire topic.

 

Edit: Since you display remarkable resistance when it comes to logic let me try to explain like to a child. You need a weapon to deal with strongest units, bombards and heavy gunners. If your weapon is strong enough to kill those you dont need to change it ever, everything else will die faster and their on paper resistances do not matter. Changing weapon in that case is inconsequential. You change it just for the sake of it because you wont feel any difference. If you can kill bombard in 3 hits, you will kill everything else in 1 even if its resistant to corrosive. Thats how its was and is and nothing you say will bend reality.

Edited Wednesday at 04:41 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

But its not valid. Nobody played like you discribed because its not realistic in this game. Its impossible by the sheer amount of enemies thrown at us at any given point and how convoluted the resistances were when 1 enemy has 3 different weakneses depending on what you actually hit.

 

What you say is utter nonesense not aplicable in any way, shape or form. Also you act like you are better this entire topic.

 

Edit: Since you display remarkable resistance when it comes to logic let me try to explain like to a child. You need a weapon to deal with strongest units, bombards and heavy gunners. If your weapon is strong enough to kill those you dont need to change it ever, everything else will die faster and their on paper resistances do not matter. Changing weapon in that case is inconsequential. You change it just for the sake of it because you wont feel any difference. If you can kill bombard in 3 hits, you will kill everything else in 1 even if its resistant to corrosive. Thats how its was and is and nothing you say will bend reality.

And I know that if you built to squash everything, you’re going to squash everything. You’ve made one build that squashes everything.

And then we go back to the modless baseline, and make another build. Will the new build squash everything?

[kuciol]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

And I know that if you built to squash everything, you’re going to squash everything. You’ve made one build that squashes everything.

And then we go back to the modless baseline, and make another build. Will the new build squash everything?

Its not about squashing everything but it just happens that thing you need for heavy units WILL do just that to everything else making whole system pointless. Do you understand now or is it still to hard to comprehend?

Edited Wednesday at 05:33 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

4 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Its not about squashing everything but it just happens that thing you need for heavy units WILL do just that to everything else making whole system pointless.

The thing you need for heavy units, as in a slow firing weapon like a sniper or close-range weapon like a shotgun, something that intrinsically has drawbacks that make it not so ideal for standard combat against most non-tough enemies, of which there were more of those than heavy enemies. And then on top of that, a system of bonuses and resistances where a heavy enemy would take more damage from a certain damage type that did neutral if not reduced damage to non-heavy, further reinforcing that one weapon does not rule all

[kuciol]

5 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

The thing you need for heavy units, as in a slow firing weapon like a sniper or close-range weapon like a shotgun, something that intrinsically has drawbacks that make it not so ideal for standard combat against most non-tough enemies, of which there were more of those than heavy enemies. And then on top of that, a system of bonuses and resistances where a heavy enemy would take more damage from a certain damage type that did neutral if not reduced damage to non-heavy, further reinforcing that one weapon does not rule all

Plasmor does just that, tenet glaxion is not a shotgun and does just that, anything with punch through does just that, any melee does just that. Whoever told you that you need very specific weapon to deal with heavy units lied. 

Edited Wednesday at 05:44 AM by kuciol

[Merkranire]

5 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Plasmor does just that, tenet glaxion is not a shotgun and does just that, anything with punch through does just that, any melee does just that. Whoever told you that you need very specific weapon to deal with heavy units lied. 

I’m not saying you need them, they’re options to draw upon. Just because some weapons and equipment can span multiple roles intrinsically does not mean all of them do, and even within the spanning of multiple roles, there’s varying levels of just how effectively a piece of kit will do that. Which means learning how to use everything, the strengths and weaknesses and fundamental systems of the game, if you want to use something that may not work the same way as another piece of your kit.

Which means dealing with scenarios you’re telling me do not exist

[kuciol]

Im saying they are pointless. You use the system for the sake of using it, not because it was good or beneficial, you literally had to gimp yourself to use it. It was flawed, unnecessarily convoluted and inconsequential to gameplay. You can use puch through on every weapon and it will do just fine, melee will always be just fine. You create the problem and search for solution and try to act superior to everyone else telling you that its pointless and nobody does that. There are plenty of options that not force you to handicap yourself.

Edited Wednesday at 05:58 AM by kuciol