We need a use for non-prime frames that have heavy investment in them.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Supposedly, last devshort, devReb(tm) said there would be more polarities to ease up on the whole process.

Though I'm not sure if that meant we were getting more than we can usually anticipate, since every prime frame is meant to come with added polarities anyway.

[MrDugan]

13 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Supposedly, last devshort, devReb(tm) said there would be more polarities to ease up on the whole process.

Though I'm not sure if that meant we were getting more than we can usually anticipate, since every prime frame is meant to come with added polarities anyway.

I've seen the notes, and what the polarities are.  I still don't think it's enough, and it still doesn't address the root of the problem, which is how restrictive the polarity system is to start with.

[MrDugan]

14 hours ago, Voltage said:

-snip-

Build diversity itself is a problem partly because of forma.  I don't even see how you can argue that it's not.  But a lot of that IS other systems.  But loadout diversity, between mod loadouts A/B/C is absolutely entirely because of how restrictive forma is.  Also, every time new mods get introduced, I take a look at a build, see that it won't fit with my current polarities, and then forget about it unless the math says it's guaranteed to be better.  I'm not going to spend a forma to try something, then have to spend another to put it back if it didn't work out.  That's absurd.  There's also the fact that every time DE reworks a frame they have to hand out forma to keep people from complaining too loudly.  A reworked system with points allows modularity that future proofs those things.  And it does not diminish forma sold to anyone except people that can't do math and just blindly slap forma on and pray.  You're defending an outdated system that heavily restricts the player for no reason that I can see other than it's what's already there.  I'm not asking for a braindead system like you're implying.  I'm asking for a modular system.  I genuinely believe that a modular system would increase forma sold for DE's end, while providing modularity for the player while also removing issues like Sevagoth entirely, while also future proofing reworks.

And spending extra forma for that experimentation IS an issue, considering all the people constantly using the arsenal as a defense for the randomizer in EDA.  If we're expected to use the whole arsenal for end game, then that means forma for all of it, which means we should NOT have to spend extra forma changing builds because of the restrictive polarity system.

As far as my umbra forma suggestion being "abused"...  Good.  There's no reason for that forma type to be as gated off as it is considering it's already more expensive than a normal forma.  People will tell you all day long that umbral mods aren't worth it anyway, but will still defend how rare umbral forma is.  If it's not worth it, why does it matter if it's more available?  With my suggestion in place, look at what it would cost for a single umbra forma BP.  Farm out a frame like Mag.  Not too bad even if RNG doesn't cooperate.  Build all 3 parts, then build the frame.  36 hours.  Then either burn NW credits, get lucky, or use plat for put a reactor on the frame.  20p in value invested.  Then slap on 3ish forma.  35p value, or 3 days of build time, along with the fact that the forma gets eaten for this, which means less forma for an EDA ready arsenal.  Then another forma plus build time to actually make the umbra forma.  Farm a frame, use a reactor, give up 4 forma, takes either plat to rush or up to 5 days of build time for everything. (4 days for forma if crafting with the frame running along side, 1 day for umbra forma.)  That's not worth a farmable umbra forma to you?  You'd get like 1 a week unless you went crazy and spent a bunch of plat to buy everything ready made, and then you'd STILL have to put the forma on by leveling it up.  That's a lot of plat or a lot of time, which are both things DE wants out of players.  I'd really love a thought out explanation as to why more umbra forma from a path like this would be a bad thing.  One that doesn't include "DE said."

[Birdframe_Prime]

39 minutes ago, MrDugan said:

Build diversity itself is a problem partly because of forma.

The design philosophy that you're missing here is what DE has put forward as 'Specialisation breeds limitation'.

What you see as making a build for the frame, DE see as making that frame specialised for a specific purpose. A huge chunk of content does not need a specialised build, and many frames are even Steel Path ready out of the box with limited modding. So to get the very specific build you want, you are then limiting yourself to that build (for the most part, there's a few build setups on multiple frames that can hot-swap most of the mods out for matching polarities and get another build). 

It's intentional.

DE want players to have limitations on their builds. It's why they don't release even more Range mods, even though people seem to think Range doesn't need limiting as it has been.

There is always a reason for a game dev gating things off. Whether that's Umbral Forma or just time-delays like regular Forma.

And its to get players coming back over and over. Little play sessions to level a frame, put a Forma on it, then leave again so they can do it again tomorrow.

Your goals for this game are not the Dev's goals. And you are, ultimately, going to just have to deal with it.

Because the battle you're trying to fight has already been fought. On and off for about seven years.

[MrDugan]

16 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The design philosophy that you're missing

I'm not missing it, I think it's stupid.

And I specifically think it's stupid because without a highly specialized set up of arcanes and frame powers, you NEED forma to run enough mods to deal with end game enemies.  You can't have a system where you need forma, but also say that it's good to be punished for using forma.  ESPECIALLY when half the forum is currently screaming at me about how forma is how DE keeps the lights on.  If it's necessary for DE and necessary for full builds, then it shouldn't be restrictive.  That "design choice" is dumb.

And while we're on the topic, no, just because they made a conscious choice to design it that way, doesn't mean it's good or smart.  "It's intentional" is not the point you think it is.  It means nothing.  They've intentionally done a lot of dirty or stupid things.  That doesn't mean they were inherently correct in doing that.  I'm so tired of seeing this complete non-point get parroted over and over by people who relentlessly defend all aspects of the game.

 

  

16 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And you are, ultimately, going to just have to deal with it.

And also, no.  You're not going to condescend to me enough to get me to shut up.  We finally got more than one forma on silver drops despite all of you making the same arguments you're making right now every time it was suggested.  "It's intentional."  "They want it this way."  "They'll never do it because forma keeps the lights on."  Well, here you go.  2 forma on silver drops.  I'm gonna keep talking and you're just going to have to deal with it.

Edited August 21 by MrDugan

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

I'm not missing it, I think it's stupid.

Yes, and?

Your mistake is thinking that I'm condescending you to make you shut up. I'm not.

I'm reporting the already-made decisions that you can't change. I have no more dog in this fight than that, you can wail and howl all you like and you'll be ignored. You already are being ignored by the Devs, and all you'll succeed at here is being ignored by everyone else.

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

That "design choice" is dumb.

That design choice has earned DE literally millions over the last decade. Enough money that they can fund a convention just for their game every year (pandemic aside), donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to charity every year, set the prize for a cosplay competition at 10k, fund an entire second game, farm out their game engine to other dev teams like Airship, and sponsor around eight hundred reviews from content creators in a year on top of just paying their team and keeping the studio running. That's before the Chinese invested in them, too.

Far from 'keeping the lights on' it's a system that has made DE incredibly wealthy.

Dumb for you. Incredibly smart for Warframe.

'It's intentional' is exactly the point I think it is.

Your response, your whole argument is like saying 'Well, why didn't the Elden Ring creators make Torrent able to fly in the open world? The movement limitations of the mount are stupid and a bad design choice.' From the person that would say that line, unironically, the argument makes perfect sense in that they want the flexibility and open movement options that would allow them to bypass the steep drops and un-climbable cliffs that prevent them from having access to areas on the map. The way that whole areas are often hidden by needing to find a specific way around to them is restrictive and un-fun to that player, and the answer is making the steed able to fly. They would honestly believe that the restrictions in the movement system are not there to make the game experience better, that they result in the player's death all too often, and it would be 'balanced' because there are specific areas where you can't use the mount, so you wouldn't be able to break the game in those places.

That's the direct comparison to your specific argument of 'just because they made a conscious choice to design it that way, doesn't mean it's good or smart'

You believe it. That doesn't make it true.

And ignoring that to shout into the waiting void is...

Ultimately just sad.

Beyond that. 'It's intentional' is exactly the point I think it is for another reason.

The reason it's the definitive and functional point of the entire argument is because we've already had this argument with DE for years now and we know the answer.

DE will improve things over time. We've seen that. Making it easier to get Forma, reducing the crafting time of Forma, those are great.

But the improvements they make are ones that functionally change nothing about the system they want to enforce in the game. A system they have enforced since the end of the closed beta back in 2013.

They're on record telling us the answer to all of the questions you've asked in this thread. No 'future proofing', no 'put on x amount of forma to have every build'. The specialisation of a build for a frame breeds limitation of what other builds you can put on.

When better people than you (by a considerable margin) have made better written and better reasoned arguments to change the system, and those haven't worked, your own attempt is just getting sadder for every more-desperate response you make.

[Hobie-wan]

8 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Your mistake is thinking that I'm condescending you to make you shut up. I'm not.

That player does nothing but post threads complaining about things in the game. They don't seem to like it very much, but they just don't get the hint and play something else that agrees with them more. I'm pretty sure it's a second newer account even as there was another with a similar name that also posted nothing but complaints in the past.

Hopefully they eventually learn to let go or get help they seem to need.

[Hobie-wan]

Oh, and on topic, perhaps it's already been said, but I'm not wading into the mess and reading the thread, though it might not apply to the OP given their post tendencies:

The use was the the fun you had along the way.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Hobie-wan said:

That player does nothing but post threads complaining about things in the game.

Is it time to deploy... the meme?

I think it might be time.

Spoiler

 

[MrDugan]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

and you'll be ignored. You already are being ignored by the Devs, and all you'll succeed at here is being ignored by everyone else.

Do you think I care?  You were on my ignore list on my xbox account, before I got forced into this one.  You can just go back on it because your opinions sincerely don't matter to me.

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, MrDugan said:

Do you think I care?  You were on my ignore list on my xbox account, before I got forced into this one.  You can just go back on it because your opinions sincerely don't matter to me.

[Hobie-wan]

@Birdframe_Prime It's funny and sad they can ignore people they don't like, but not the game they seem to hate so much.

Again, I hope they eventually come to terms with their issues.