Suggestion for EHP tank frames

[m0b1us1]

TLDR: EHP tanks survivability should not be overshadowed by shield gate frames in late game scenarios. So update them by adding a form of HP gate based on armor.

To those that don't know, EHP means "effective health" and is used to describe the total amount of damage a frame can take before going down. For quite a long time now, the traditional forms of tanking have become entirely eclipsed. Shield gate was a necessary change, but as the damage of enemies has continued to climb and more content has been introduced that starts at higher levels, it has become more effective to keep a frame alive than the majority of EHP tanks. As often seen with deep archimedea, the circuit, and jade eximus damage, EHP tanks often can and will get completely left behind in survivability. The higher the level, the more EHP frames fall off. This was not an issue even after shield gating was introduced due to the comparatively low damage at the time. Content such as level cap before shield gating was far more tedious, and it helped allow a ton of frames to be more reliable in higher end content.

Now, with the massive jump in power for both enemies and frames, EHP frames could use a touch up to be able to handle the massive increase in damage overall. It says quite a lot when Chroma is outclassed in the ability to stay alive by a non-tank frame who wisely uses shield gating. Currently, the only EHP tank I can think of that can reliably handle the massive damage increase is Nidus due to his massive DR and easily refreshable death gate.

I won't go into all the specifics of how armor improves your EHP, but the general rule of thumb is easy. Take your HP, for every 300 armor you have, it adds your HP to your EHP. So at 1k HP, and 600 armor, you have an EHP of 2k. 900 armor gives you 3k, etc etc. With how high the current late game levels start, this EHP is quickly eclipsed even with frames like Chroma who can reach hundreds of thousands if not more, and regen can easily be overwhelmed if you use a frame like Inaros (who also got his healing from 4 completely removed and had none of his issues fixed). EHP needs to be updated to fit the modern times.

I suggest that EHP be given "HP gates" based on armor. This would simply work in the background like shield gate. For example, take a frame and give it 1k hp, and 1200 armor. Currently, it would have 4k EHP, easily downed by quite a lot at the late game. The "HP gate" would simply stop damage from being able to do enough damage to lose more than 1k hp at a time (to match up with the current equation, but its flexible). Basically, dividing the EHP into sections, and a gate being added between each section. HP regen would remain the same, and healing would refresh your gates much like shield gating does. So if the HP gate stops you from taking more than 1k EHP at a time, each time you heal 1k EHP, it refreshes one of the HP gates. Is this stronger than shield gate? Yes, and no. Yes in the sense that you have multiples of them, no in the sense that it wouldn't be as quick to refresh. Shield gate just needs catalyzing shields+augur mods or brief respite plus an ability cast to instantly refresh it. This HP gate in theory would not have an instant way to refresh it, with some exceptions like Trinity 4, and refresh through the more abundant sources of healing. If it would be too easily abused by non-ehp tank frames, then you could make the timer of the gate based on max HP to try an minimize that.

Adding something like this would allow EHP tanks to be able to compete with and hopefully be more reliable at taking end game damage compared to shield gate frames. Doesn't have to be this, but EHP tanks need to be modernized and able to survive more reliably than shield gate frames at late game content.
 

[dwqrf]

il y a 19 minutes, m0b1us1 a dit :

TLDR: EHP tanks survivability should not be overshadowed by shield gate frames in late game scenarios. So update them by adding a form of HP gate based on armor.

To those that don't know, EHP means "effective health" and is used to describe the total amount of damage a frame can take before going down. For quite a long time now, the traditional forms of tanking have become entirely eclipsed. Shield gate was a necessary change, but as the damage of enemies has continued to climb and more content has been introduced that starts at higher levels, it has become more effective to keep a frame alive than the majority of EHP tanks. As often seen with deep archimedea, the circuit, and jade eximus damage, EHP tanks often can and will get completely left behind in survivability. The higher the level, the more EHP frames fall off. This was not an issue even after shield gating was introduced due to the comparatively low damage at the time. Content such as level cap before shield gating was far more tedious, and it helped allow a ton of frames to be more reliable in higher end content.

Now, with the massive jump in power for both enemies and frames, EHP frames could use a touch up to be able to handle the massive increase in damage overall. It says quite a lot when Chroma is outclassed in the ability to stay alive by a non-tank frame who wisely uses shield gating. Currently, the only EHP tank I can think of that can reliably handle the massive damage increase is Nidus due to his massive DR and easily refreshable death gate.

I won't go into all the specifics of how armor improves your EHP, but the general rule of thumb is easy. Take your HP, for every 300 armor you have, it adds your HP to your EHP. So at 1k HP, and 600 armor, you have an EHP of 2k. 900 armor gives you 3k, etc etc. With how high the current late game levels start, this EHP is quickly eclipsed even with frames like Chroma who can reach hundreds of thousands if not more, and regen can easily be overwhelmed if you use a frame like Inaros (who also got his healing from 4 completely removed and had none of his issues fixed). EHP needs to be updated to fit the modern times.

I suggest that EHP be given "HP gates" based on armor. This would simply work in the background like shield gate. For example, take a frame and give it 1k hp, and 1200 armor. Currently, it would have 4k EHP, easily downed by quite a lot at the late game. The "HP gate" would simply stop damage from being able to do enough damage to lose more than 1k hp at a time (to match up with the current equation, but its flexible). Basically, dividing the EHP into sections, and a gate being added between each section. HP regen would remain the same, and healing would refresh your gates much like shield gating does. So if the HP gate stops you from taking more than 1k EHP at a time, each time you heal 1k EHP, it refreshes one of the HP gates. Is this stronger than shield gate? Yes, and no. Yes in the sense that you have multiples of them, no in the sense that it wouldn't be as quick to refresh. Shield gate just needs catalyzing shields+augur mods or brief respite plus an ability cast to instantly refresh it. This HP gate in theory would not have an instant way to refresh it, with some exceptions like Trinity 4, and refresh through the more abundant sources of healing. If it would be too easily abused by non-ehp tank frames, then you could make the timer of the gate based on max HP to try an minimize that.

Adding something like this would allow EHP tanks to be able to compete with and hopefully be more reliable at taking end game damage compared to shield gate frames. Doesn't have to be this, but EHP tanks need to be modernized and able to survive more reliably than shield gate frames at late game content.
 

Have you tried Baruuk ? He has a spell giving 90% damage reduction. A passive giving 50% damage reduction. An active that give 40% damage reduction.
Shield give already 50% damage reduction. His armor gives 38% damage reduction to his health.

Slap Adaptation on him for another layer of 90% damage reduction.
What about a Helminth for some +75% damage reduction on top of that ?
99.99% Damage reduction is fun.

Then, you don't need to slot Vitality, Redirection, or Steel fiber, when every attack does 1 damage to you (just don't walk into a Nullifier).

-

Anyways, my take on the subject would be to had another feature into the game that does HP gate in some sort, too. That would be Overhealth.

As Overshield ; some Warframe spell, some mods, and such, could grant you an additional layer of stacking Overhealth above your Health, behind your shields ; which could be either a flat amount (meh) or a multiplier of your total Health or/and Armor rating. Doing so will make sure it's based on the same stats, and would also grant a Health Gating when taking heavy damage. It wouldn't be directly resplenishable by healing naturally, unless set up with either set mods or spells allowing the overflow of healing into Overhealth.

It would be a green bar ; and I can't wait to imagine a Oberon remake featuring Overhealth, and another plant/nature/root based Warframe which could scale it like crazy.

[m0b1us1]

2 minutes ago, dwqrf said:

Have you tried Baruuk ? He has a spell giving 90% damage reduction. A passive giving 50% damage reduction. An active that give 40% damage reduction.
Shield give already 50% damage reduction. His armor gives 38% damage reduction to his health.

Slap Adaptation on him for another layer of 90% damage reduction.
What about a Helminth for some +75% damage reduction on top of that ?
99.99% Damage reduction is fun.

Then, you don't need to slot Vitality, Redirection, or Steel fiber, when every attack does 1 damage to you (just don't walk into a Nullifier).

-

Anyways, my take on the subject would be to had another feature into the game that does HP gate in some sort, too. That would be Overhealth.

As Overshield ; some Warframe spell, some mods, and such, could grant you an additional layer of stacking Overhealth above your Health, behind your shields ; which could be either a flat amount (meh) or a multiplier of your total Health or/and Armor rating. Doing so will make sure it's based on the same stats, and would also grant a Health Gating when taking heavy damage. It wouldn't be directly resplenishable by healing naturally, unless set up with either set mods or spells allowing the overflow of healing into Overhealth.

It would be a green bar ; and I can't wait to imagine a Oberon remake featuring Overhealth, and another plant/nature/root based Warframe which could scale it like crazy.

You missed the point, damage reduction does not matter at all at modern day late game and that's the issue. Enemies can easily deal millions of EHP damage. Old chroma (before bug fix/nerf) could reach tens of millions of EHP. Think Baruuk hits just under 1 mil EHP now? Been a while since I checked. Also, stacking DR has diminishing returns and you lose optimization if you don't give it HP. Think of 1x1, if you change one of them to 50, yeah 50x1 is a ton bigger than 1x1, but if you changed both to 10? 10x10 is doubled 50x1 and you had a much smaller change overall.

We have overhealth like you describe, its called overguard and works more or less exactly like that, and still has the same issues. And even then, that doesn't address the core issue. Enemy damage scales far faster than EHP. 99.99% DR with 1k hp? Absolutely worthless when the enemy hits you for millions and more. 1 million damage will still hit for 10k with 99.99 DR, and it just gets worse because enemy damage will ALWAYS outscale your EHP and DR currently.

For regular star chart and steel path? Yeah, all that is cake walk. Elite deep archimedea where enemy levels start at level 375ish and post mortal surges can absolutely melt any EHP frame in an instant along with numerous other enemy attacks? Or level cap cascade floods, disruption, and high level circuit runs? EHP and DR is worthless and the only survivability metas there are either abuse shield gate, use stealth, or play Rev. At those levels, there is zero difference between 50 million EHP and 1 EHP. At that point, you don't have x shields and y hp, you have 1 shield, and 1 hp, because the damage is so high that it doesn't matter how much of anything you have. Basically, what my suggestion does is add a weaker, non-instant, form of mesmer skin to EHP tanks that relies on healing to refresh the gates as opposed to a button press.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

1 hour ago, m0b1us1 said:

This HP gate in theory would not have an instant way to refresh it, with some exceptions like Trinity 4, and refresh through the more abundant sources of healing. If it would be too easily abused by non-ehp tank frames, then you could make the timer of the gate based on max HP to try an minimize that.

i mean gloom with our dmg output of weapons means you are always full hp.  Give it to grendel and he at certain enemy lvl gets constant full hp simply by having enemies in gut and gloom active...

[m0b1us1]

3 minutes ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

i mean gloom with our dmg output of weapons means you are always full hp.  Give it to grendel and he at certain enemy lvl gets constant full hp simply by having enemies in gut and gloom active...

Yep. It's not a perfect system by far, and there are many other ways that you could easily break this. Trinity could use 1 and just slap it to make the entire team immortal while she was attacking it. Or just press 4 and instantly heal everyone. You could run a low HP frame and just use healing return or life strike and also be immortal.
Its only a theory, a proper method like this that would take into account mass healing like that and not be easily exploited. Last thing we need is something that works even better than shield gate and is even easier to refresh.

[Merkranire]

Just remove shieldgating as a mechanic. It’s intended purpose as an every-so-often one-shot prevention mechanic has been superseded by a weird exploit that turns players invincible and they’ve convinced each other that’s good game design