The gating hole in player defense: Fixed player values and exponential enemy damage don't mix well

[kerozen666]

This is a feedback post that cover a lot of the game, but i felt making it here was more fitting, since it does apply the most to our warframes.

Basicly, Ever since SP was added to the game, there's been a tricky survivability problem. Player defensive values, health, shields, armor, and except for rhino, overguard, have fixed values and limits. they don't sclae as missions go on. On the other hand tho, enemy damage scales with level, endlessly, and exponentially. Pre sp it wasn't so much of an issue, since mission levels were always in a zone where that damage was manageable for any warframe with simple mods, and long endurance numbers were something you chose to impose yourself. 

with the arrival of steel path and the subsequent higher mission level, damage has become an issue. the extra 100 lvl pushes content into a damage zone that isn't as manageable, which is then amplified by the tougher and more numerous enemies. And this lead to the very sad situation where investing in actually taking that damage isn't worth it, as you'd need more defensive mods and gears, which you would be using for other thing, all while gating is right here and can be more easily abused to keep you alive, and even let you free more mod slots to increase your power. that is of course, different if you are one of the lucky "tank" frames, but that's not all frames. This damage situation has even lead to people making revenant the most used frame, even tho he's no different in his kit than the immortal old wukong, who players called boring. 

So if it were possible to alter enemy damage scaling to either stop at a certain point, or ar least be drasticly diminished after a certain level, so that putting shield or health mods will actually make a difference instead of being only one or maybe 2 extra hit in the lab. This would also revive the interest for healer support frames, as now other people will have stats to end and heal rather than full negation kit and already self sustained tanks

[Maxwell]

Love that in 2024 people still calling shield gating "abuse" while DE made a mod every frame can use aside the poor shieldless bros. "Abusing" something means to rely on a bug and that isn't intended, which isn't the case there.

Playing at lvl 500 SP and onward becomes a different game where shield and health tanking just don't work anymore as the damage becomes too stupid to manage, so yeah maybe doing something to make it viable but frankly 99% of the players won't ever set a foot in that level zone so i don't think DE sees it as worth to invest time into it.

Edited 6 hours ago by Maxwell

[kerozen666]

20 minutes ago, Maxwell said:

Love that in 2024 people still calling shield gating "abuse" while DE made a mod every frame can use aside the poor shieldless bros. "Abusing" something means to rely on a bug and that isn't intended, which isn't the case there.

Playing at lvl 500 SP and onward becomes a different game where shield and health tanking just don't work anymore as the damage becomes too stupid to manage, so yeah maybe doing something to make it viable but frankly 99% of the players won't ever set a foot in that level zone so i don't think DE sees it as worth to invest time into it.

a mod that you barely see used because people have realized they don't even need it and a single augur mod does the job, bypassing the intend way to take advantage of the system. 

plus, this is about non tank frames, and their investment in defensive mods becomes useless waaaay earlier, since, again, damage sclaing is exponential, and lvl 100+ is where it picks up speed. by the time you hitneptune enemies do 50% more damage than earth, and when doing base lab, it's doubled, tripled when doing netracells. the extra breathing room redirection of vitality gave you isn't worth the slot, so why not trade that for an augur mod and just let the one shot prevention magily carry you instead?

[Maxwell]

39 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

a mod that you barely see used because people have realized they don't even need it and a single augur mod does the job, bypassing the intend way to take advantage of the system. 

plus, this is about non tank frames, and their investment in defensive mods becomes useless waaaay earlier, since, again, damage sclaing is exponential, and lvl 100+ is where it picks up speed. by the time you hitneptune enemies do 50% more damage than earth, and when doing base lab, it's doubled, tripled when doing netracells. the extra breathing room redirection of vitality gave you isn't worth the slot, so why not trade that for an augur mod and just let the one shot prevention magily carry you instead?

1) 1 augur mod isn't near enough to shield gate efficiently at high level
2) Again, it works as described, you don't take advantage of a bug or anything
3) You can health/tank past level 100 easily, this is a modding issue on your side. Veterans can help you mod your frames better if you want, just ask them.
4) Netracells isn't that high level nor high difficulty, EDA is a bit more challenging but the danger comes more from the outlier like the modifiers, the health leeching gremlins and the Necramechs

[kerozen666]

10 minutes ago, Maxwell said:

1) 1 augur mod isn't near enough to shield gate efficiently at high level
2) Again, it works as described, you don't take advantage of a bug or anything
3) You can health/tank past level 100 easily, this is a modding issue on your side. Veterans can help you mod your frames better if you want, just ask them.
4) Netracells isn't that high level nor high difficulty, EDA is a bit more challenging but the danger comes more from the outlier like the modifiers, the health leeching gremlins and the Necramechs

1) it's enough to regain enough invulnerability to get you out of weny situation, especially if you have a spammable ability
2) catalizing shields came with update to shields to incentivise using them, thus, showing that the devs don't really intend for you to just gate spam without investment, the mechanic just being terribly implemented
3) not without heavy investment, who's usually pricier and more resource intensive than just gating. it's about making the two options as worth it
4) tell that to the 3 seconds of inatention it takes to take you down if you don't have something wiping rooms for you or running an actual tank. it takes just a few enemies to empty your primed redirection powered shields. and mind you, 3 second is less than it takes to scratch your butt or take a sip of water

you tell me to ask vets for advice, but jokes on you, i've played this game since 2016, and i've seen it evolve. I know how to mod my stuff, and i've also seen how people play and how the community evolved. and because of that, i can absolutly tell you that there has to be an actual survivability problem for the community to make revenant, a frame that's only good to be immortal in standard content, the most played warframe, while before, pre rework wukong was one of the least played because he was bacicly just that but with a big stick

[Maxwell]

46 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

1) it's enough to regain enough invulnerability to get you out of weny situation, especially if you have a spammable ability
2) catalizing shields came with update to shields to incentivise using them, thus, showing that the devs don't really intend for you to just gate spam without investment, the mechanic just being terribly implemented
3) not without heavy investment, who's usually pricier and more resource intensive than just gating. it's about making the two options as worth it
4) tell that to the 3 seconds of inatention it takes to take you down if you don't have something wiping rooms for you or running an actual tank. it takes just a few enemies to empty your primed redirection powered shields. and mind you, 3 second is less than it takes to scratch your butt or take a sip of water

you tell me to ask vets for advice, but jokes on you, i've played this game since 2016, and i've seen it evolve. I know how to mod my stuff, and i've also seen how people play and how the community evolved. and because of that, i can absolutly tell you that there has to be an actual survivability problem for the community to make revenant, a frame that's only good to be immortal in standard content, the most played warframe, while before, pre rework wukong was one of the least played because he was bacicly just that but with a big stick

1) even when spamming 1 augur mod isn't enough
2) Dev literally gave use companions that make us near immortal

I know player who are here since 2013 that still don't know how to mod stuff so yeah it wouldn't surprise me. I still assure you can health /shield tank with zero investment past level 100 you just need to mod for it and have something coherent in your loadout.

4) 3s is kinda long if you stand in the middle of enemies

Revenant is boring because he can't die but there are many other viable frames to play at high level.

[kerozen666]

22 minutes ago, Maxwell said:

1) even when spamming 1 augur mod isn't enough

if you actually move around, it's more than enough considering you'relready going to be casting. it gives you the minimum .33 sec of invincibility, which is plenty with how spammy some ability can be, and thus more than cover for any defensive mod that would require you to move anyway due to how high the damage is.

please tell me you are actually moving around 

beside, Boring or not, rev is still the frame you see in almost every pub squad you get in, armed with good old torid about 75% of the time, because the survivability issue is so high, people will actually go with the boring setup rather than let it rot like old wukong.

there is a damage problem that is severly impacting the game, to a point where support rames are without use, nuking is everywhere, and a game who was build for years around the vastness of it's arsenal end up having it's most restricitve state in years

[Mothman95]

People use Rev/torid because its braindead, not because surviving is particularly hard and they HAVE to but because they are that lazy.  Its not an argument to make the game easier.  No reason to cater to those who refuse to engage with the modding system.  You don't have to do much to survive in base steel path anyways and its a game mode intended for 'endgame' players who understand modding and game mechanics.

[Sephylon086918]

So correct me if I got this wrong op, but you're asking for the removal of shield gate mechanics, coupled with the reduction of enemy damage, for the sake of making healing relevant and to move away from self-sustaining kits?