The Realism Of The Brakk Nerf Is Awesome. De Should Make It More Widespread.

[thejynxed]

Everybody freaks out about a nerf that needed to happen. Albiet, maybe not so drastic, but still needed to happen. I for one am still waiting for buffs to my Hek :/

 

Hek is the one that started the nerfing, it will never see a buff again.

[413X]

Well 15m in game is logical. All the rooms are so small incomparision. Maybe 20m will be a better choice

 

And therein lies the problem of damage falloff as a "solution" to weapon balance.

 

You want to use sniper rifles? Most of the rooms are small anyway. At this distance assault rifles line up enemies and dispatch them much quicker than sniper rifles.

 

You want godlike damage to offset the slow reloading? OK but we limit your ammo (in closed beta testing this was the case...) but "oh noes Operation Slingshot event gives out ammo mutation mods no fair ammo hax for the winners!" complaint led to plentiful ammo, so scratch that balance mechanic also. Sniper ammo drops LESS but no where near as bad as closed beta testing days. So again, snipers were made less potent. Need a few shots from a fully modded Vektis to take down a Grineer heavy? Ok.... but a few headshots to down a normal trooper??????

 

We need more variety in combat distance and improved enemy AI. Because right now, combat consists mostly of medium to close range encounters. I say AI needs to be improved because even in planets with more wide open spaces, AI still tends to close the distance instead of forming killzones in entrenched positions. Sometimes they do take cover behind railings and things but more often than not you just see a whole group standing in the open blazing away at you.

 

Whole group blazing away at you without cover= more emphasis on enemies being bullet sponges. Throw scaling in and you get sniper-impervious cannon fodder. And that is what they are, cannon fodder.

 

When the kill count goes into the 2k++ range at the end of the map, it seems to me like there is something fundamentally wrong with the way challenge is presented in the game.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: Above is just my views, but I do like Overgrowth-style combat systems where simultaneously fighting just 3 or sometimes even 2 enemies in melee can be a recipe for disaster, so it's obviously going to differ from the players who want a game of "line the enemies up in a row and try to mow them down before they mow you down."

 

Frankly, I wouldn't mind going back to the bad old days of scarce ammo, if DE could make decent AI worthy of being individual challenges rather than just mobbing us with Star Wars battledroid-esque twits. I would not mind ending a mission with only 20 or so kills instead of having slaughtered hundreds, if killing those 20 had been more involving than just blasting away at them with my weapon and maybe some ability use thrown in.

[NalkorRN]

You sir, have made one of the most intellectually, logically, and reasonably sound posts that is so irrefutable that I fail to see how anybody could possibly disagree.

 

This is pretty much what I have been trying to say for so long posted into words.

Too bad his post, the first part anyway, is @(*()$ wrong. Armor Ignore was divided into 4 categories: Serrated Blade, Physics Impact, Toxin, and Armor Piercing. It's why the Despair/Hek were so damn powerful no matter what, the mods for pistols/shotguns are much more powerful than rifles, and only Grineer Commanders and Seekers resisted some Physics Impact damage. You wanted to quickly down a level 100 Ancient Disruptor back when it looked like an Infested Crewman? Use the Despair/Hek.

[Myocarde]

...

You want to use sniper rifles? Most of the rooms are small anyway. At this distance assault rifles line up enemies and dispatch them much quicker than sniper rifles.

...

  The idiocy of making 15 meters a sniper distance, by introducing fall-off damage to this game, is hilarious. Anyways, with the current tileset, "room" size and mob AI/placement, it's always CQB, no matter how many bows or sniper rifles are introduced to the game. And yes, the scarcity of sniper ammo was stupid as well. Because you don't fight few strong enemies to make each bullet count and to make that small ammo count count, pardon the pun. You fight hordes of weak to medium enemies, so you need either a spray-type weapon with large ammo pool or an AoE weapon.

 

  To make sniper rifles viable, the mobs and rooms should be redesigned, with an addition of fortifications. For example, a grineer machinegun nest, where the machinegunner needs to be taken out (well, you can imagine ways to do it with current game mechanic, aside from sniping, like various frame abilities, wallrunning etc.).

Edited December 16, 2013 by Myocarde

[Azure_Kytia]

Security pillboxes, anyone?

[Malfeitor]

Invi frames like Loki and Ash would still be broken though. Hmm.... well, I suppose the devs could always come up with something suitable unpleasant in the form of a new enemy type to hunt them down, mwaha.

 

EDIT: just had a thought for anti-invisibility unit. Maybe a corpus equivalent of grineer informer. Cloaked, but then uncloaks periodically to send out a scanning burst in a radius around it. That way the invisible frames can't kill it ahead of hand, and have only like maybe 1 second to shoot it down after it uncloaks before it blows their cover. Mwhaahahhahahahahahaha... 

Rly, now?

Cause even though he doesn't appear all too often I can surely think of one, already implemented.

Oh, poof of smoke and flickering lights, well I guess I'll just go eat something or watch some television, maybe try learning that song I've always wanted to be able to play. I'll come back in 2.5 seconds when he's done tea-bagging my mutilated body. I mean it's like lightning or getting hit by a meteor you can't even cry. It was just my time to lose a revive. I sometimes comfort myself by thinking we Loki-lovers take on the Rhino-lovers sin so they can go to heaven IF they ever die.

I just love it! Decoy ignored. Invisible ignored/dispelled. Switch teleport (he either teleports back in 0.5 seconds or within range cleaves you in two). Radial disarm (no, he's not like other boys "everything proof shield!").

This is especially entertaining considering our one and only strength besides abilities; Speed is absolutely irrelevant against unlimited energy pool and teleport.

Invisibility is not invincibility. =,(

On a more serious note and regarding the real topic; Damage fall-off, you are absolutely right. It's a compromiseing mechanic which does not belong in warframe.

[Makya]

I wonder if they remove the damage fall off but make the spread similar to the broncos at 15m(Aka more useless than the current damage falloff) if people would throw fewer fits.

[NalkorRN]

Security pillboxes, anyone?

If that was the case, the Ignis would need a buff, as Flamethrowers were originally made to deal with tanks in WWI. Even in wars like Vietnam, the Flamethrower could destroy armor and even buildings. Some mixtures of Napalm would burn in excess of 2,000 degrees Kelvin, more than hot enough to melt the steel of a tank, or the stone architecture of a fort housing stores of the stuff. So technically, anything getting hit by the Ignis would just be utterly destroyed. Grineer and their armor would melt, same for MOAs, Corpus Crewmen and Infested would be, well, piles of ash.

 

To pre-empt anyone who thinks such a hot flame is shot out of the barrel of a flamethrower itself, it's not. It's the igniting fluid that is, and the flame at the end of a barrel that ignites it. Go on and watch The Running Man, pay close attention to how the character named Fireball (a stage name of sorts) starts up his signature weapon before using it. That and the movie is just plain awesome with great one-liners, "Here is Sub-Zero, now, plain zero!".

[Meltina]

Hear hear for realism. If a shotgun starts to lose velocity at 10 meters a thrown knife should start losing it at 3 meters. Really 10 meters is a sad range for falloff to start.

 

Broom closets are about 12 meters in game

Glaive is 30 meters

Small hallways are about 15 meters

slash dash is 26+ meters (havent tested it with the new nightmare mods)

Large rooms are about 150 meters

Knives do full damage on targets 100 meters away

 

I wonder if they remove the damage fall off but make the spread similar to the broncos at 15m(Aka more useless than the current damage falloff) if people would throw fewer fits.

 

You know at 30 meters a single pellet from a bronco hits does much more damage than an entire hek shell and you can have about 5-6 pellets still hit at that range even with huge spread. Having falloff be at 8% per meter and capping at 92% reduced damage was crippling. Having bronco with heavy calibur class spread would still make it do 3x the damage that a falloff version that hit with all its pellets. Unless they changed falloff im using numbers after the buffed shotguns after their first fall off was considered too harsh.

[Makya]

You know at 30 meters a single pellet from a bronco hits does much more damage than an entire hek shell and you can have about 5-6 pellets still hit at that range even with huge spread.

Umm I have tested the Broncos and I have tested the Hek, how old of a test are you talking about? The only good shotgun at mid/longer range IS the Hek which does a heck of a lot more damage than the Broncos do at even 10-15 meters, while I ahve not tested the spread of a Bronco at 30 meters, the Hek kills at that range. I only joined post Update 11, so maybe it was alot weaker before hand, but now, it is strong.

[Xrylene]

If you guys are still going on about this, I have a solution.

 

Sure, you can give the Broncos damage falloff, they have massive spread anyway and are bad at range as is...

 

...On the condition that the Brakk is nerfed to have the exact same stats as the Bronco Prime with no special advantages whatsoever. I don't think it's too much to ask to have an exclusive gun be on par with the strongest gun of it's class, is it?

 

If that's too much to ask, then I'd suggest you shut up about damage falloff, because you'll get no sympathy so long as your gun outperforms the other guns in it's class while still being exclusive.

[ZeroInferno]

If you guys are still going on about this, I have a solution.

 

Sure, you can give the Broncos damage falloff, they have massive spread anyway and are bad at range as is...

 

...On the condition that the Brakk is nerfed to have the exact same stats as the Bronco Prime with no special advantages whatsoever. I don't think it's too much to ask to have an exclusive gun be on par with the strongest gun of it's class, is it?

 

If that's too much to ask, then I'd suggest you shut up about damage falloff, because you'll get no sympathy so long as your gun outperforms the other guns in it's class while still being exclusive.

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is why the game is starting to crash land right here.

 

The whole "*@##$ *@##$ *@##$ you can't have a better gun than me".

 

Don't bother replying to me, I wont entertain a response anyway with your half-assed mentality.

[Makya]

Don't worry, there will be a BETTER shotgun pistol in a few events from now and Brakk users will complain the new shiny is better,

[fatpig84]

RIP Bronco soon™

[NalkorRN]

I'm sorry, but this is why the game is starting to crash land right here.

 

The whole "$#*(@ *@##$ $#*(@ you can't have a better gun than me".

 

Don't bother replying to me, I wont entertain a response anyway with your half-assed mentality.

Not just crash land, things can survive that, more like crash and burn, like in Die Hard 2.

[TheThreadWeaver]

So is this thread even maintaining any kind of focus anymore, or is it just completely derailed at this point?

[Meltina]

Umm I have tested the Broncos and I have tested the Hek, how old of a test are you talking about? The only good shotgun at mid/longer range IS the Hek which does a heck of a lot more damage than the Broncos do at even 10-15 meters, while I ahve not tested the spread of a Bronco at 30 meters, the Hek kills at that range. I only joined post Update 11, so maybe it was alot weaker before hand, but now, it is strong.

If you had both maxed out mods in update around update 8 the bronco would deal more damage per shot than the hek due to superior pistol mods. Hek falloff doesent begin to start till 20 meters I consider the distance i can do a slide attack or slash dash away from an enemy short range and most corpus midsided rooms are about 45 meters long so I put my definition of mid ranged 25-40 meters. I haven't done the math for damage 2.0 but I expect it to be 1-15 broncos hek is good from 15-22 meters then after that broncos are more damage at farther ranges. Shotguns capping at 90% damage vs pistol 220% and rifle 165% really cripples the hek. The nightmare mods did good for helping bring shotguns back up. I dont think they done any adjustments to falloff after that I may have missed the patch notes and i havent touched my hek been leveling rifles from then. Also if you zoom in with broncos you can pretty much hit 75% of your pellets at 35 meters due to zoom tightening the spread. Broncos destroy the hek on the facts they deal more damage at close range and they don't become cotton candy at 30 meters.

 

Heks progression was

5m = 51 damage

10m = 51 damage

15m = 15 damage

20m = 7 damage

25m = 7 damage

per pellet about 7 months ago. I believe the hek was buffed for its falloff to start at 20m instead of 15.

 

15 Meters is struns range the extra polarity makes it out perform the hek at those ranges until you forma your gun enough to have extra energy left anyways. Anyways if the hek is strong what is just about every other weapon in the game that blows hek out of the water. Its pretty low teir at the moment.

 

10 meters happens to be the width of one grineer defense terminal. So if your standing on one side of the stairs up to the platform something on the other side gets about 50% reduced damage from a brakk.

[Nagisawa]

If that was the case, the Ignis would need a buff, as Flamethrowers were originally made to deal with tanks in WWI. Even in wars like Vietnam, the Flamethrower could destroy armor and even buildings. Some mixtures of Napalm would burn in excess of 2,000 degrees Kelvin, more than hot enough to melt the steel of a tank, or the stone architecture of a fort housing stores of the stuff. So technically, anything getting hit by the Ignis would just be utterly destroyed. Grineer and their armor would melt, same for MOAs, Corpus Crewmen and Infested would be, well, piles of ash.

 

To pre-empt anyone who thinks such a hot flame is shot out of the barrel of a flamethrower itself, it's not. It's the igniting fluid that is, and the flame at the end of a barrel that ignites it. Go on and watch The Running Man, pay close attention to how the character named Fireball (a stage name of sorts) starts up his signature weapon before using it. That and the movie is just plain awesome with great one-liners, "Here is Sub-Zero, now, plain zero!".

Actually, a flamethrower (which yes, could heat up to 2k C) was more about cooking what's inside the tank or bunker.  Melting treated steel and stone is slow, but the AIR inside is superheated to that degree and very few living objects can survive more than a few seconds of that.

 

I have no issue with Damage Fall Off, IF DE would spread the effected cone of damage.  So that you'd kill like 3+ close together targets per pull of a shotgun.  We get less ammo than a basic rifle anyway, we should get more (pun intended) bang for our buck with each trigger pull.

[NalkorRN]

Actually, a flamethrower (which yes, could heat up to 2k C) was more about cooking what's inside the tank or bunker.  Melting treated steel and stone is slow, but the AIR inside is superheated to that degree and very few living objects can survive more than a few seconds of that.

 

I have no issue with Damage Fall Off, IF DE would spread the effected cone of damage.  So that you'd kill like 3+ close together targets per pull of a shotgun.  We get less ammo than a basic rifle anyway, we should get more (pun intended) bang for our buck with each trigger pull.

It still achieved the desired effect, but yeah. The flamethrower thing, not the absurdly short damage falloff.