Movement 2.0 - Overhauling The Clunky Movement And Acrobatics.

[Luminati07]

(Originally posted in GD. Posting a second thread in Feedback. Because, well...It's also feedback)

 

Hey everyone,

 

Before I start, I just want to say that I haven't actually watched Livestream 19 yet. But, I've read some stuff about the upcoming melee overhaul that gives me an idea of what's going on.

 

Correct me if I'm understanding incorrectly, but melee seems to be equippable like guns, and there will be some kind of skills associated with the melee weapons.

 

Overhauling movement directly ties into the melee system.

There's tonnes of potential for integration, so I'm going to solely focus on movement in this thread, rather than the melee system.

 

________________________________

 

If I'm totally honest, I'm not too optimistic about the melee system (surprise, surprise. Nugget is being negative).

I think DE has the potential to do great things, but I can't see it happening.

 

Equippable melee opens up some serious opportunities for greatness.

So, I want to look at another game for inspiration.

 

Unreal Championship 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN3PddDHF4Y

Direct link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN3PddDHF4Y

 

Probably not the one a lot of you expected.

 

UC2 is one of my favourite games of all time. It combined Unreal Tournament with some damn exciting melee combat and movement. What's not to love!

 

Now, what made the melee combat of this game so good?

Several things. One, every melee weapon felt different/had their own traits.

But, that wasn't the main thing. In UC2, melee felt so good because of the freedom and fluidity of the movement.

 

Now, I want to touch on the movement of Unreal Championship 2/Warframe first.

 

Movement

To me, the movement in Warframe really isn't that great.

The wallruns feel clunky, it's a hassle to jump from wall to wall, dodge rolling is barely useful at all, there's barely any synergy between acrobatics and the gunplay/melee.

 

Wallrunning has massive potential for both gameplay and map design.

But, with the way wallrunning works in Warframe (a gimmick at best), it just doesn't reach that potential.

 

At the moment, Warframe's movement is what?

The only thing the movement techniques are used for is zooming around maps.

 

Launching 42378 KM/H off wallruns.

Slide melee.

Zorencoptering.

 

The occasional wallrunning to progress is thrown in.

 

Movement is in need of an overhaul. A serious overhaul.

How to achieve this?

 

First - Remove coptering

Second - Remove the ability to launch yourself ridiculous distances after a wallrun.

Third - Give movement a place in the game. Make it something more than a gimmick.

Fourth - Integrate it with gameplay.

 

Now, you'll have to bear with me here.

 

Section 1 - Zorencoptering

I'm not suggesting DE just flat out removes coptering. That would &!$$ off a lot of players.

 

How to do this the right way?

Give every Warframe a different propulsion technique. A fifth ability so to speak (but with no power cost)

 

Each Warframe's propulsion would be different.

Loki would be able to propel himself further than a Rhino with this technique.

 

However, these propulsion abilities would have cooldowns.

Zorencoptering, while fun, has serious downsides to gameplay.

 

So, in short.

Each Warframe would have their own exclusive propulsion ability that would fill the role of Zorencoptering.

However, it's not spammable. It has a cooldown.

 

Different Warframes can propel themselves further.

 

Section 2 - Wallrunning

Now, Wallrunning propulsion needs to get removed.

I'm probably the minority here, but I genuinely hate this "feature".

 

Wallrunning should be used for one of several things.

1. Getting to places otherwise unreachable.

2. Avoiding enemy fire

3. Jumping from wall to wall.

4. Utilizing the wall to perform different attacks.

 

With the exception of the Void, Warframe basically has wallrunning in the game for us to launch off at a million KM/H.

 

What needs to be done?

Remove the ability to launch off wallruns completely.

Refine wallrunning animations so they're not so...janky.

 

If I stop a wallrun, I should be able to jump off it. There's nothing wrong with that.

There is, however, when I can almost instantly propel myself 50m away from my previous location.

 

If you're going to add that kind of feature, at least make it even the slightest big plausible.

Unreal Championship 2 allowed you to jump off walls. But it never felt stupid like it does in Warframe.

 

Design the maps in a way that there are some seriously interesting way to utilize jumping from wall to wall.

I know there's a common complaint that players don't want to have to wallrun.

 

But, I can say with full confidence that players would gladly be encouraged to wallrun if it was fun and if it genuinely felt awesome to do.

 

Section 3/4 - Giving movement a place in the game and integrating it with gameplay

Like I said above, make wallrunning/movement techniques have some actual places in gameplay.

Maps could be designed in such a way that wallrunning has some practical uses.

 

Integrate it to stealth. Have us be able to wallrun and hang off ledges to get past enemies undetected.

I'll let a video do my talking here.

 

Look for the melee sections/sections that involve wall jumping.

 

That's enough about wallrunning.

What about movement?

 

Unreal Championship 2 had some of the best acrobatics in games (imo).

When you used the fancy flips/side spins, you felt like you were actually doing something. Which, you were. You could dodge enemy projectiles with these movements.

 

Warframe needs some new animations/jump styles to feel fresh.

 

The movement was the one thing that kept me playing Unreal Championship 2.

Every time I performed one of those flips or wall jumps. I felt like a badass.

 

Why? The animations.

The felt genuine.

If I'm totally honest, the Warframe mobility animations just don't have that same feeling of...for lack of a better word, awesomeness.

 

It's very hard to explain, especially to people who didn't play UC2.

Watch over those videos and look for the animations I'm talking about.

I can't explain it in words.

 

_________________________

 

All in all, I think the movement in Warframe needs an overhaul.

New animations, new applications.

 

If done right, I do believe DE has the ability to pull this off. Hell, they co-developed my favourite shooter of all time.

 

There we go. Hopefully that makes some kind of sense to you.

Not the highest on the priority list. (I'd say overhauling the generic gunplay should come first) But, if the game had seamless, exciting movement, that would go miles in keeping people interested (Especially in terms of map design)

 

Before I finish up, I want to look at 1 other game.

Mirror's Edge

Direct link - 

 

Yes, DE is no DICE (which is a good thing. Most of the time, DICE is hopeless)

But, Mirror's Edge has some of the best movement in gaming. By far.

 

It all feels so natural, and seamless.

Everything flows into everything.

 

In Warframe, wallrunning is Run -> Jump -> Pause -> Wallrun -> Pause -> Jump off.

It's very jittery.

 

*Edit 1*

Map Design

The biggest problem here is that the tilesets haven't been built with this style of movement in mind.

Its designed to not have any movement at all. Most corridors are narrow, theres always unavoidable obstacles (as in youll lose your momentum).

Let's be totally honest. These posts are 100% correct.

 

The map design in Warframe seems to be anti-movement.

That needs to stop.

 

With the kind of fluid movement I'm hoping for, it opens up so many opportunities to have some genuinely interesting maps.

Seriously. You don't even need me to paint pictures for you, you can envision Tenno leaping from wall to wall flawlessly and reaching a vantage point.

You can visualize a Tenno doing aerial twists/flips to avoid enemy projectiles.

 

Having movement like this opens up so many more opportunities for the devs to release some maps that aren't just a bunch of boring tiles mashed together. We can have some interesting tiles mashed together.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Nugget_

[sirwarriant12]

im all for this  honestly although i dont think the wall launch should be completely removed, just toned down to where its enough to get you to another ledge or wall thats relatively close as theres no way your going to be able to run at a 45 degree angle then launch your self 5k feet at the same time you would need to be closer to 90 degrees to get and real power. Alot of the issues with the movement are animation based the wall runs would look more fluid, as would the flips, and just about everything else

[Porn]

Shut up, and take my +1!

 

EDIT: Pretty soon, Digital Extremes will have to rename Warframe to Warframe 2.0, because they'll upgrade everything.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Porn

[Luminati07]

im all for this  honestly although i dont think the wall launch should be completely removed, just toned down to where its enough to get you to another ledge or wall thats relatively close

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for leaping from wall to wall. That's what I'm wishing for.

 

But, almost instantly launching 50 metres after a wallrun is just stupidity, and should have been fixed long ago.

[Azure_Kytia]

You could have like, totally asked a Moderator to move it? :O
 

Mirror's Edge's movement system felt so seamless because they hacked the movement and physics system beyond near all recognition. To look at it outside of a First Person Perspective, though..... It's terrifying.

 

The movement System in Warframe has always felt jittery, and loss of control mechanics are rampant, even without enemy conflict. When you're battling with controls to do things you want to do, there is a problem. I've always personally thought Wallrunning and acrobatics should affect enemy accuracy temporarily, and it wouldn't really be that hard to implement and add a little depth into movement and combat. 
 

if(Player.InitiateNinjaAction){    if(Player.InitiateWallrun)        Variation += 0.5;    if(Player.InitiateDodge)        Variation += 0.25;    if(Player.InitiateJump)        Variation += 0.1;    if(Player.InitiateSlide)        Variation += 0.15;    timer.sinceLastAction = 0;} if(timer.sinceLastAction >= limit && Variation >= 0.01)    Variation -= Variation / 100;  vector3 fireDirection(Object Target, float Variation){ direction = new Vector3 (Target.position.x + Random.Range(Variation * -1, Variation),    Target.position.y + Random.Range(Variation * -1, Variation), Target.position.z + Random.Range(Variation * -1, Variation)); return direction;}

Edited December 16, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[Porn]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for leaping from wall to wall. That's what I'm wishing for.

 

But, almost instantly launching 50 metres after a wallrun is just stupidity, and should have been fixed long ago.

That's the problem people face when they have to take that parkour Mastery test. It needs to be fixed badly.

[Luminati07]

 

You could have like, totally asked a Moderator to move it? :O

 

Mirror's Edge's movement system felt so seamless because they hacked the movement and physics system beyond near all recognition. To look at it outside of a First Person Perspective, though..... It's terrifying.

 

The movement System in Warframe has always felt jittery, and loss of control mechanics are rampant, even without enemy conflict. When you're battling with controls to do things you want to do, there is a problem. I've always personally thought Wallrunning and acrobatics should affect enemy accuracy temporarily, and it wouldn't really be that hard to implement and add a little depth into movement and combat. 

 

Not sure if 'hacked' would be the right word for how DICE handled Mirror's Edge. 

But, yeah, you're right. Mirror's Edge is hilarious in third-person (I tried playing it at one point. I couldn't stop laughing)

 

Giving us some maneuvers that affect incoming enemy bullets/projectiles would be welcome. 

If they gave us these flips/wallruns/movement options, but they had no effect, then there's no point in adding them.

 

They need to at least be useful.

[asiveni]

Loved mirror's edge, if they implemented the movement system from their into Warframe...."Mind blown"

[LukeAura]

I think wallrunning requires too much finger acrobatics for what little it actually gives us. 
We get on the wall, and space should be all we need to hold. Holding W makes using asd less accessible, and stops us from having w as a button input as well. 
Toggle between target lock and free form? Change wallrun direction?  Perform a dive from the wall? A jump?
Having to hold W+Space is a real limiter to our wallrun potential, and should be changed while adding in increased options of wallrun maneuvers.  

[MenschOfUber]

I think wallrunning requires too much finger acrobatics for what little it actually gives us. 

We get on the wall, and space should be all we need to hold. Holding W makes using asd less accessible, and stops us from having w as a button input as well. 

Toggle between target lock and free form? Change wallrun direction?  Perform a dive from the wall? A jump?

Having to hold W+Space is a real limiter to our wallrun potential, and should be changed while adding in increased options of wallrun maneuvers.  

Yeah I agree with this. I mean they took the first step to just changing wall run to holding jump to initiate but holding forward (I play on gamepad) is really difficult for me. I couldn't finish the rank mastery test that has you wallrunning and shooting at the same time because I had to hold jump+run+hold+aim+shoot. I had to change my layout completely for my gamepad just to finish that one mastery test. So yeah I don't see why they haven't just made it to hold jump to wall run. (This was obviously before the update that changed wallrunning to just holding jump)

Edited December 16, 2013 by Cactuarspy

[Luminati07]

Yeah I agree with this. I mean they took the first step to just changing wall run to holding jump to initiate but holding forward (I play on gamepad) is really difficult for me. I couldn't finish the rank mastery test that has you wallrunning and shooting at the same time because I had to hold jump+run+hold+aim+shoot. I had to change my layout completely for my gamepad just to finish that one mastery test. So yeah I don't see why they haven't just made it to hold jump to wall run. (This was obviously before the update that changed wallrunning to just holding jump)

Oh man...I can't imagine trying to play with a controller....

 

Changing the controls should be a top priority, it's just such a hassle to use them.

Control and fluidity both go hand in hand. If the wallrunning is fluid, the controls shouldn't feel as bad. But, they do need a change

[LukeAura]

It would help increase the enjoyment of gameplay over the skinner box satisfaction and progression satisfaction if wallrunning and ninja mechanics felt better. 

[MenschOfUber]

Oh man...I can't imagine trying to play with a controller....

 

Changing the controls should be a top priority, it's just such a hassle to use them.

Control and fluidity both go hand in hand. If the wallrunning is fluid, the controls shouldn't feel as bad. But, they do need a change

Yeah I completely agree.

[Otaiken]

The main issue I have with movement in this game: momentum.

 

Every time you jump, vault over something or roll, you don't retain your momentum. This makes the whole movement feel very wierd.

 

It feels like this: You are running - vault - stop - animation plays - stop - run again

 

It should feel fluid: run - vault/roll - keep running

 

I think that vault should actually increase your speed (it's called speed vault for a reason). Also, the fact that you roll after even small drops, even if you try to slide instead. I'm honestly not surprised that people use sprint - slide - slide attack - sprint, as this is currently the most fluid way to get around the levels.

 

Also, vault will not propel you forward, it stops you. This is especially apparent when you vault over balcony fence and you fall straight down (and roll). In this scenario you should propel yourself forward and be able to chain into slide.

 

I'd go even further with the momentum. In my oppinion heavy frames (Rhino, Frost, etc) should be able to reach higher momentum than light frames. So while light frames have better acceleration, heavy frames should be able reach similar top speed as long as they keep running. Of course that would also make it harder for them to stop and maneuver at high speeds. But that is my pet suggestion... simply improving movement system for now is more than enough.

Edited December 18, 2013 by LocoWithGun

[MenschOfUber]

The main issue I have with movement in this game: momentum.

 

Every time you jump, vault over something or roll, you don't retain your momentum. This makes the whole movement feel very wierd.

 

It feels like this: You are running - vault - stop - animation plays - stop - run again

 

It should feel fluid: run - vault/roll - keep running

 

I think that vault should actually increase your speed (it's called speed vault for a reason). Also, the fact that you roll after even small drops, even if you try to slide instead. I'm honestly not surprised that people use sprint - slide - slide attack - sprint, as this is currently the most fluid way to get around the levels.

 

Also, vault will not propel you forward, it stops you. This is especially apparent when you vault over balcony fence and you fall straight down (and roll). In this scenario you should propel yourself forward and be able to chain into slide.

 

I'd go even further with the momentum. In my oppinion heavy frames (Rhino, Frost, etc) should be able to reach higher momentum than light frames. So while light frames have better acceleration, heavy frames should be able reach similar top speed as long as they keep running. Of course that would also make it harder for them to stop and maneuver at high speeds. But that is my pet suggestion... simply improving movement system for now is more than enough.

Yeah that's a gripe I have with the game as well. It feels clumsy to me to have to keep stopping then moving again. I personally don't like to use the rush mod because I prefer to have knockdown mods or whatever else so when I was using Frost of course he was super slow, everytime he would come to a dead stop it really slowed me down. 

 

 

Not to mention that if you keep holding the run button during the stop animation it continues to drain your stamina for no reason even if you're not moving.

[Methanoid]

whatever they do movement wise from this point on will probably be less complicated rather than more complicated to appease our ps4 bretheren who have to use a less able control scheme.

[Batosaii]

I love the Ideas being thrown around and I agree with most of this stuff, although it would take a lot of time and man pwer to build this tuff from the ground up the way you are hoping for. I would love it but we will see.

[LightstealKnight]

(Originally posted in GD. Posting a second thread in Feedback. Because, well...It's also feedback)

 

 

Equippable melee opens up some serious opportunities for greatness.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

I must really vote against equitable melee weapons.

However, I would not be against:

 

Pushing the melee button works as normal however the melee weapon is not put away directly after the attack until the the fire button is pushed.  This way the melee button will have a quicker attack because the equip animation will not have to be done again.  The fire button should re-equip the primary or secondary weapon that was being used.

 

I also would not be against melee weapons such as wrist razors that do not require an equip or de-equip animation or a melee / secondary weapon combo that do not require equip/de-equip animations.

Maybe even make the throwing weapons (such as the Hikou) equip-able to the secondary weapon slot and/or the melee slot so that it can be used as both with the separate mods for each (and perhaps a mod or two that will effect the melee from the secondary weapon slot or vise versa).

 

 

And of course no change is required for the glaive.

 

 

 

 

 

Movement

 

To me, the movement in Warframe really isn't that great.

The wallruns feel clunky, it's a hassle to jump from wall to wall, dodge rolling is barely useful at all, there's barely any synergy between acrobatics and the gunplay/melee.

 

Wallrunning has massive potential for both gameplay and map design.

But, with the way wallrunning works in Warframe (a gimmick at best), it just doesn't reach that potential.

 

At the moment, Warframe's movement is what?

The only thing the movement techniques are used for is zooming around maps.

 

Launching 42378 KM/H off wallruns.

Slide melee.

Zorencoptering.

 

The occasional wallrunning to progress is thrown in.

 

Movement is in need of an overhaul. A serious overhaul.

How to achieve this?

 

First - Remove coptering

Second - Remove the ability to launch yourself ridiculous distances after a wallrun.

Third - Give movement a place in the game. Make it something more than a gimmick.

Fourth - Integrate it with gameplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My only beef with movement is that tumbles and melee interrupt reload animations rather than just pausing them.

 

I love the slide shot (because it allows for allies to shoot at enemies from behind without blocking their LoS)

I love shooting from mid air and the slide melee attack (although it is sometimes hard to connect especially with the glaive).

The stamina system could use a little bit of an adjustment but it is good enough.

 

First - 

 

Please, do not remove coptering, I do not use it myself but it is not an exploit.  It is a viable game mechanic and useful for many builds.  Movement is great in warframe, I do not think that it needs a lot of work, just little tweaks here and there.

 

Second - 

 

KEEP IT!!!

 

Third - 

 

It is already

 

Fourth - 

 

It is already

 

I agree with most of what is in the link below

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/119650-parkour-has-been-ignored-for-too-long-its-the-key-element-in-making-warframe-gameplay-unique-and-fresh/?hl=%20movement%20%20gameplay%20%20wallrun

 

However for a quick programming fix

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/150188-wall-run-wall-climb-differentiation/

 

 

 

I enjoyed your post and your suggestions, however, and encourage you to keep posting about your frustration.  Personally, I really enjoy the movement mechanics even though they can be greatly improved upon.

 

 

 

 

[Luminati07]

 

-Snip-

The fact that tumbling resets reloads isn't the problem. It's the fact that you have little to no control over when you're going to roll. It just happens.

Auto roll is nothing but irritating.

 

Nah, I stand by my decision. Coptering is a joke and must be removed.

Remember, I'm not suggesting an outright removal. I'm suggesting a more..."realistic" alternative.

 

To me, coptering is nothing but a detriment to gameplay.

 

whatever they do movement wise from this point on will probably be less complicated rather than more complicated to appease our ps4 bretheren who have to use a less able control scheme.

Good movement options does not mean the controls will have to be complex.

 

Unreal Championship 2 had amazing movement, and that was all easily done on the Xbox 1.

 

I love the Ideas being thrown around and I agree with most of this stuff, although it would take a lot of time and man pwer to build this tuff from the ground up the way you are hoping for. I would love it but we will see.

Yeah, this sort of this is something for way down the line.

 

If it ever does (somehow) get noticed by DE, I'd rather they release it in full force, rather than in tiny increments.

[Shinobi-kun]

My thoughts, if I may.

1. After wallrunning (run forward, not scale up walls), launches self forward a meter or so forward, ending with a slide.

2. Sometimes, I get really frustrated when vaulting actually throws you forward/upwards/slides me off the crate I'm climbing onto, maybe we simply leap over the fence instead of vaulting over. This way, we retain the supposedly 'fast pace shooting' in Warframe.

3. Back handsprings to get up after knocked down. We're ninjas, are we not? This too is to retain Warframe's gameplay pace.

[Luminati07]

My thoughts, if I may.

1. After wallrunning (run forward, not scale up walls), launches self forward a meter or so forward, ending with a slide.

2. Sometimes, I get really frustrated when vaulting actually throws you forward/upwards/slides me off the crate I'm climbing onto, maybe we simply leap over the fence instead of vaulting over. This way, we retain the supposedly 'fast pace shooting' in Warframe.

3. Back handsprings to get up after knocked down. We're ninjas, are we not? This too is to retain Warframe's gameplay pace.

1) Yeah, propelling us a small distance (one or two metres) would be perfectly fine.

DE needs to focus on letting the player keep their momentum, currently, pretty much everything you do kills it.

 

2) Yeah, this is extremely irritating.

 

3) Agreed here as well.

[dhromed]

The only thing that truly bugs me about movement is the jerky tenth-second pause before jumping or initiating a wallrun. Directional movement is absolutely fluid, going from walk to sprint and back is equally smooth, sliding feels like the best thing since slided bread, but when hitting the jump button there's a weird delay before the jump animation plays. The delay feels far bigger than the delay to start hitting something with your melee.

 

It's really messing up my flow when I'm a microsecond too late to jump on top of a container and am moonwalking into it instead.

[Luminati07]

The only thing that truly bugs me about movement is the jerky tenth-second pause before jumping or initiating a wallrun. Directional movement is absolutely fluid, going from walk to sprint and back is equally smooth, sliding feels like the best thing since slided bread, but when hitting the jump button there's a weird delay before the jump animation plays. The delay feels far bigger than the delay to start hitting something with your melee.

 

It's really messing up my flow when I'm a microsecond too late to jump on top of a container and am moonwalking into it instead.

Yeah, that short delay is a huge contributor to the movement feeling so clunky. That's the first thing that needs to go.

[NeroUmbra]

With the huge number of possible actions when the jump key is hit the game engine is probably deciding which action you mean to do and picking any one BUT that one...

[BadPoetry]

This is a really good idea for improvements. I love the parkour but daaang it needs an overhaul.

 

Instead of all this flying spinning stuff with melee why do we not have the ability to charge while in transit properly? Or attacking through a slide/wallrun?