Teamwork In Relation To Gameplay Incentive: Some Concerns

[Coratha]

@Zinn: A very well thought-out post, and I agree with you on most points. To be honest, I don't have a problem with speed running as a concept, and I know most people don't do it to be malicious. It's just that many still do, and they stick out like VERY sore thumbs. The issues I tried to bring up in this thread were simly that...

1). The current matchmaking system has no way to separate the "speed runners" from the "looters", or for each to effectively find a group of their fellows

2). The current drop tables and rates seem to discourage people from looting over speed running, so those of us who are completionists and/or looters who like to clear out a mission feel like the odd ones out, because the speed runners can just argue logic about time efficiency, and they aren't necessarily wrong. It just feels better to some of us to clear a whole mission, because you never know which of those mobs you left behind may have dropped that last 20-ish Rubedo you need, sparing you the time of doing the whole run over again. It feels skewed.

Honestly, I do see the appeal in speed running, for example if you need a rare boss drop. I just wish things could be a bit more balanced. Like if drops would be more spread out (smaller amounts but more frequent), you could feel like you'd get roughly the same amount whether you blasted through, only killing what you had to to finish faster, or if you stuck around hunting down more mobs in one mission. Right now it feels like a gamble because of how infrequently materials drop, so people feel like they have to kill every mob on a map to increase the chance they'll get that extra drop or two at all. Also, when I talk about killing all the mobs on a map, I don't mean standing around an emtied room waiting for additional spawns, I just mean clearing out all of one room before you move on to the next. Sorry if I wasn;t clear on that. There have been plenty of times I've gotten myself killed by staying to clear a room while not noticing I no longer had my allies' help because they went on without me. That's the frustrating part.

So yeah, it would be nice to see a little tweaking to drop mechanics, but that's only one part of the teamwork conundrum. Maybe I'll start a new thread a little later with a list at the top of all the ideas we can think of for good ways to encourage teamplay. I'll write down the ones we all talked about here today. If anyone has any other ideas, keep on posting them here for now, I'll check back on this thread later tonight or tomorrow to collect them for the list.

Also, a BIG thanks to everyone who posted, you guys surprised me. It's refreshing to see such a constructive community for a game, it's been a pleasure talking to you guys. :)

[Brasten]

neKroMancer, a good point on power combos. I know DE wants players to discover them organically, however the ones that exist aren't really potent enough to bother about. Mag Pulling a single foe through an Ember's Fire Ring is not really all that good. Now Pulling a single foe across that Fire Ring and into another group of enemies to set them on fire as well... that's a true combo... but it doesn't happen that way. Best combo I've seen so far is a Zoren quick attack spammer running alongside a Scindo or Fragor. Zoren staggers almost everything and the Scindo cuts it all down in few good swings.

Mass Effect 3 also uses a global cool-down system instead of non-relishing energy, which encourages more constant power use. Having to pick up little energy balls and having no inherent energy recharge almost put me off Warframe when I jumped in during the short open beta. Its still something I'm not to keen on even with having an Energy Syphon card now.

@DSKM2, Infested Laser Doors. Really?

====

Look, lets examine other Dungeon games. Diablo(s) come to mind. Torch Light for being a Diablo clone. Path of Exile. Any others? For Diablo's part it has the exact same speed run problem Warframe has, and it is done for the exact same reasons.

[SlyBoots]

@ zinn: yeah, but no, rubedo drops from regular guys. all the time. besides you're saying you have to farm - i mean, you want to play the game at all, right? and you mean to tell me that you leveled all your stuff without getting at least a bit of rubedo, alloy plate and whathaveyou? really?

1). The current matchmaking system has no way to separate the "speed runners" from the "looters", or for each to effectively find a group of their fellows

something like this could be worth trying.

Edited March 16, 2013 by SlyBoots

[Coratha]

Alright guys, the new thread is up!

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/15365-re-teamwork-incentives-the-community-list/

If anyone has any more ideas for teamwork mechanics, head over there and post then, and I'll add them to the list!

[Zinn]

@ zinn: yeah, but no, rubedo drops from regular guys. all the time. besides you're saying you have to farm - i mean, you want to play the game at all, right? and you mean to tell me that you leveled all your stuff without getting at least a bit of rubedo, alloy plate and whathaveyou? really?

You should probably read that post again, mate. Also, I play for fun and helping newbies now and then but the current content is old hat for me otherwise: I have used pretty much every weapon in the game, levelled a lot of them to between 20 and 30 and I currently have 7 frames - 3 of which are level 30 (Ash, Rhino and Frost), 1 that's in its 20s (Mag), two unlevelled ones (Excal Prime + Trinity) and a Loki that's currently level 11. On top of that I also had a 30 Volt that I originally started the game with but since sold.

And yes, I level my stuff without getting a single resource (unless farming inbetween) because I'm in a big clan and thus tag along on Xini where I can gain ranks incredibly fast. I take part and kill stuff but I'm basically there to leech exp and gain mods for the first few ranks until my frame gets some useful skills. Honestly, why would I play Mercury and Venus for the 1000th time when I can hop straight into a rank 30+ mission with hundreds of enemies and get 10k+ exp on every item?

I'll add my 2 cents on teamwork in the other thread, since this one was basically complaining about speedruns, a necessary evil in the system DE has created. Personally, I do my utmost to never play "Online" when farming and instead solo or farm with the clan. When I was new, speedrunners ruined some of my fun, so it's not like I don't get the frustration - It's just that once you hit the content "wall", you'll experience the same thing.

[Lactamid]

Been reading this post for a while now and feel like some of the things make sense but others might be looking at it in the wrong way (not saying I'm always right), here are some suggestions.

Why not simply make it possible for a speed-runner to leave the map via the exit by him or herself? The map is NOT ended if the others choose to continue

Exit Area remake:

1: if a player reaches the exit area he/she can press a button to start a collective group exit (functions the same way the timer does now, but has to be activated)

2: an in game button is added for exiting the map. A player pushes a button in exit area -

when pushed the player is ready to leave AND IS FREE TO LEAVE THE EXIT AREA - this cancels out some of the Loki-switches that teleports you out of the exit area and takes away your

bonus at the end of count down. Also this could be used by players that would like to help others but arrive to the exit faster than others.

Ie: player 1 reaches the exit but player 4 is left behind. Player 2 then reaches the exit area but does not want to wait - starts the collective group exit. Player 3 reaches the exit area and is "home safe". The timer runs out and player 1 and 4 have not reached the exit area.

For player 1 this means he/she is safe to either exit whit the rest of the team or continue helping player 4.

For player 4 this means he/she can exit without the map bonus due to group exit, continue with player 1 (if he/she chooses so) or continue playing alone via server splitt (see below)

(3:) The automatic exit area function is still the same if all frames reach the area map ends.

...and of course. If there is a destruction countdown, reaching the exit area in the same way it is now is the only option.

To deal with elevator-frustration there could be a button the sends the elevator up/down again.

Ex.1: Player one goes up/down the elevator heading for the objective. The elevator is empty so he/she sends it down again.

Ex.2: Player 2 reaches an elevator but it isn't at his/her floor. Player 2 then hacks the pannel and the elevator comes down/up at increased speed.

(Elevators heading in the direction of the "main objective" provide a more challanging chipher but recieves additional speed bonus)

Server splitt - (a kinder way of vote-kicking)

If a team is suffering from a players play style they can ask for a "server splitt". The player that started the server split-vote can then invite the players he/she chooses. Players invited gets the option to accept or decline.

Ie. player 1 invites player 2 and 3. Player 2 accepts - player 3 now sees "would you like to continue the battle with player 1 and 2?"

If a player declines he/she will be given the option to continue with others that has not accepted or not been invited, or quit/continue alone.

Uninvited players (yeah that means your sorry &#! player 4, ;) simply continues on a copy of the map - usuall server transfer.

Another team based function could be the option to use teleports and/or team spawn points to let others catch up.

Teleports:

If a player...let's call him player 4... is left behind he or she can try to find a teleportation-station on the map. This can function in to ways.

Either you could "spawn in on a player" (takes time) or for a more co-op feel to it let your team activate a closer teleportation-station for you to arrive at (instant).

(ps: this could also open up for new gameplay styles - save your team mate/hold out for help)

Spawnpoints:

This is mostly for server splitts but can probbably function in other ways.

Let's say your buddy is left behind and a vote is cast. You want to stay and help but he/she is really far behind - this is a drag since map is mostly done. Choosing the "start at team spawnpoint" let's both (the 3) of you start together at a strategic point of the map (somewhat like a checkpoint). Not to close to the exit (team sacrifice) and not to far (for being acctually worth it).If there are 3 players the spawnkpoint might be closer?

[SlyBoots]

sorry, zinn, but as long as you're putting containers into the "drop uncommon resources reliably" category, we'll have to agree to disagree. alright, maybe i'll give in but the hordes of enemies drop enough additional resources to make it wortwhile to actually play the pve content even when you're only farming.

And yes, I level my stuff without getting a single resource (unless farming inbetween) because I'm in a big clan and thus tag along on Xini where I can gain ranks incredibly fast. I take part and kill stuff but I'm basically there to leech exp and gain mods for the first few ranks until my frame gets some useful skills. Honestly, why would I play Mercury and Venus for the 1000th time when I can hop straight into a rank 30+ mission with hundreds of enemies and get 10k+ exp on every item?

take a break. seriously, if you can't draw a link from this "playstyle" to how you judge the game then... i dunno what else to tell you. why do you have a problem with playing mercury/venus again at all when you're repeating xini ad nauseum? i'm stumped, ya stumped me with that question. take a break. just a suggestion.

Edited March 18, 2013 by SlyBoots