Ogris, Penta And Torid Nerf

[DHKany]

lol you guys. 

Sorry that you're actually going to have to come down every 20th wave on defense to pick up your ammo instead of just camping in an unreachable location for eternity. 

 

Sheesh, 72 ammo is still too much for the sheer CC damage these guns do. 1 grenade/rocket can kill an infinite number of mobs, up to a fairly high level (70s with 1 forma), assuming they're close enough (which isn't hard to do, given the correct setups and whatnot.). Do you really need 540 of them in reserve? 

[SIDESTRE4M]

Their ammo efficiency is not an issue, those weapons should be efficient in the bag per ammo department. Where I do see an issue, however, is the rate at which they dispense their firepower -- borderline spammy attack rate with huge damage potential and almost no downtime. Launchers should retain their high power but the rate at which they desperse it should be toned down -- one rocket for the Ogris and/or 3-4 for the Penta/Torid with a 2-3 second reload time.

 

And I don't see the deadzone as a limitation, it is only logical to blow yourself up if you fire a rocket point-blank.

 

You can spam if you will, but on the other hand, you'd do that with every weapon and in time you killed 5 guys with one rocket, I could kill them with another gun, like maybe Soma. Yeah I would need more bullets, but therefore Soma is more flexible to use.

The deadzone itself is the limitation. Because no deadzone, no problem. ;)

 

Thing is about game balance, as much as you would want the weapons to perform the same, you can't take a rocket launcher and compare it to a bow or a rifle.It's annoying to go in with a Synapse and before you can take a shot at a mob (because the range is so poor) some dude with a Penta nuked the whole room.But hell, Synapse is the best DPS in game.When it gets close and personal with some tough mobs or a boss you can ditch the Penta because it's useless.

 

Of all projectiles, the Penta ones are the slowest. Synapse is my main weapon and I never had any problems beeing on par with Penta users. Synapse is the wrong weapon to snipe except in combination of Volt's shield. And if it's the case the other one killed 100 more than me, if we both have 200 kills or 300... who cares?

 

lol you guys. 

Sorry that you're actually going to have to come down every 20th wave on defense to pick up your ammo instead of just camping in an unreachable location for eternity. 

 

Sheesh, 72 ammo is still too much for the sheer CC damage these guns do. 1 grenade/rocket can kill an infinite number of mobs, up to a fairly high level (70s with 1 forma), assuming they're close enough (which isn't hard to do, given the correct setups and whatnot.). Do you really need 540 of them in reserve? 

 

Who would actually do that and wouldn't pick up the mods and stuff? So if the one is coming down maybe each wave to pick up stuff, what difference would it make to you? Yes, it would be fairer that way in theory, but... isn't that nitpicking?

 

--------------------

 

So the real problem is, you guys loathe those Penta-users because they have it somewhat the more easy way.

 

So in if you nerf it, the Penta-users could argue, they wouldn't be able to use it before some Soma-users cleared the room.

 

Heck, you could even argue Nova is unfair, because she can clear an entire room so easily...

 

Nova + Penta = most hated combination in warframe ever?^^

 

--------------------

 

Just in case you wondered: I'm not a dedicated Penta-user. I liked it when I used it. It got a catalyst and that's it. I use it from time to time to have fun with it or where I see it fit using, which is rare because most if the time Synapse fits my playstyle better.

Edited January 2, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Kagumin]

 

So the real problem is, you guys loathe those Penta-users because they have it somewhat the more easy way.

 

So in if you nerf it, the Penta-users could argue, they wouldn't be able to use it before some Soma-users cleared the room.

 

Heck, you could even argue Nova is unfair, because she can clear an entire room so easily...

 

Nova + Penta = most hated combination in warframe ever?^^

 

 

That is the worst line of reasoning ever.

You're essentially saying, "Doing that will probably achieve nothing, so why bother?".

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

[MoyuTheTrinity]

people arguing wether a limitation in the engine is legitemet or not like DE has a huge choice in the matter currently

like i said before

DE isnt gona take a chance this early in adding a new ammo pool or risk movign them to sniper ammo or arrow ammo as everytime they do these things it makes alot of bugs

the weapons are already not fun to use (torid/ogris) why risk breaking them with work arounds to the ammo system that have proven very buggy and unreliable

everyones arguments wether it should stay like it is or not that it needs a nerf or not >_> are literaly no use as DE is not going to touch them till they actualy can make new ammo pools

the engin shiped with 4 ammo types and has no safe way to add new ones copying existing ammo pools and renamign them isnt gona cut it as this is core code built into the engine

 

I wish for once people would listen to reason and limitations

[SIDESTRE4M]

That is the worst line of reasoning ever.

You're essentially saying, "Doing that will probably achieve nothing, so why bother?".

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

 

Yes, why doing something if it doesn't bear any fruits just to please the masses. Gimme an answer for that. I'd say the problem roots deep, if I actually saw a problem.

 

The funny thing is, you all hide behind noble purposes and in the end you are only jealous of those who use a certain type of weapon that has an advantage you don't have and ignore the situational usability and the risk which comes with it. What do you think how often I had to help a downed Penta user who killed himself with a grenade?

 

If "infinite ammo" really were an issue, if would have been since the introduction of Lex. But no one cared. Now people suddenly see grenades killing 5 enemies at once and suddenly infinity ammo is a problem, because "their" kills and "their" fun are in danger (not that a few soma bullets couldn't do the same).

What's with the fun of the others, who use that weapon? Who is right?

Because there is no answer to that, people come up with stuff like realism and empty logical arguments just to justify their point of view. 

 

If you ask me, this topic is hilarious. It's all about "nerf it because I get less kills".

[Kagumin]

Yes, why doing something if it doesn't bear any fruits just to please the masses. Gimme an answer for that. I'd say the problem roots deep, if I actually saw a problem.

 

The funny thing is, you all hide behind noble purposes and in the end you are only jealous of those who use a certain type of weapon that has an advantage you don't have and ignore the situational usability and the risk which comes with it. What do you think how often I had to help a downed Penta user who killed himself with a grenade?

 

If "infinite ammo" really were an issue, if would have been since the introduction of Lex. But no one cared. Now people suddenly see grenades killing 5 enemies at once and suddenly infinity ammo is a problem, because "their" kills and "their" fun are in danger (not that a few soma bullets couldn't do the same).

What's with the fun of the others, who use that weapon? Who is right?

Because there is no answer to that, people come up with stuff like realism and empty logical arguments just to justify their point of view. 

 

If you ask me, this topic is hilarious. It's all about "nerf it because I get less kills".

 

The funny thing is, you hide behind empty statements and off-topic tangents as if that were to strengthen your imaginary stance on what the weapon is. Here's a thought; how about suggesting something for the weapon then? Clearly, by the amount of threads, the weapon is not "balanced".

Find a middle ground instead of pushing your opinion as fact and saying "This is for my amusement because I'm so edgy."

 

Have the weapon draw from the sniper pool and bring the ammo count down to 72.

Nothing more than a "cosmetic change" as you put it.

[Nnazqul]

Clearly you have no clue what you're talking about if you think that because 2 or 3 people opened a thread about something there must be something to it.

You have zero argument.

[Kagumin]

Clearly you have no clue what you're talking about if you think that because 2 or 3 people opened a thread about something there must be something to it.

You have zero argument.

 

Clearly, you have no clue what you're talking about if you think it's only in the Weapons section of Warframe.

You have zero counter-argument.

 

No but seriously, of all the things you could have countered/refuted, you chose that?

Picking straws dude, try again.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Kagumin

[Otaiken]

That doesn't really change the fact the amount of topics on something is no argument in itself. Someone could make 20 nonsensical topics and it wouldn't mean anything.. it's the reasoning withing those topics that makes a difference.

 

For someone so eager to post biases you certainly succumb to them yourself quite often.

 

Also, you better not riddicule people, or pick on them.. cause arrogance severy limits your ability to self-reflect and that completely kills any argument as you will never be able or willing to understand opposition's points that way. 

Edited January 2, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Kagumin]

That doesn't really change the fact the amount of topics on something is no argument in itself. Someone could make 20 nonsensical topics and it wouldn't mean anything.. it's the reasoning withing those topics that makes a difference.

 

For someone so eager to post biases you certainly succumb to them yourself quite often.

 

Also, you better not riddicule people, or pick on them.. cause arrogance severy limits your ability to self-reflect and that completely kills any argument as you will never be able or willing to understand opposition's points that way. 

 

 

You should quote who you're replying to.

[Nnazqul]

That doesn't really change the fact the amount of topics on something is no argument in itself. Someone could make 20 nonsensical topics and it wouldn't mean anything.. it's the reasoning withing those topics that makes a difference.

 

Couldn't have said it myself better.

 

You have zero argument still.

[Kagumin]

Couldn't have said it myself better.

 

You have zero argument still.

 

So suddenly, every argument in those said topics are invalid because I was "wrong" about the amount of topics?

Lol, okay bro. You don't even have an argument to being with.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Kagumin

[SIDESTRE4M]

The funny thing is, you hide behind empty statements and off-topic tangents as if that were to strengthen your imaginary stance on what the weapon is. Here's a thought; how about suggesting something for the weapon then? Clearly, by the amount of threads, the weapon is not "balanced".

Find a middle ground instead of pushing your opinion as fact and saying "This is for my amusement because I'm so edgy."

 

Have the weapon draw from the sniper pool and bring the ammo count down to 72.

Nothing more than a "cosmetic change" as you put it.

 

You think it's offtopic because I brought a similar example to make clear how much nonsense it is to talk about infinity ammo and you label it as an empty statement I hide behind? In fact you didn't really answer me, but I didn't expect so in the first place.

 

It's not me who want a change, so it is not my duty to come up with a solution, but I'll try helping... don't hate me for that, though...

 

All the solutions so far are:

1. Nerf ammo capa, make it consume sniper ammo

2. Ammo 2.0 (the word alone doesn't really count as a real solution...)

3. ?

 

Because of:

1. "Infinite ammo"

2. people should have to care about picking up ammo

3. logic/realism

 

And that without someone really stating the problem at all. What is the problem exactly?

1. "infinite" is just a catchy word. In fact, for some weapons you pick up more ammo than you need. I don't see how a ammo capa nerf would change that... not even sniper ammo.

2. it's not like people are dodging ammo packs... maybe some are hiding at one place on a defense mission. That's all? wow...

Clearing rooms did happen before penta with various frames/weapons.

3. Realism isn't it, because gameplay above all else.

 

So it must be the balancing of the weapon.. maybe. But nearly no one did care for that and instead went on with the crusade for ammo nerf or no-nerf.

Correct me if I overread a solution for a REAL balance somewhere.

 

So in the end the only thing the nerf faction has is forks and torches for great justice with neither a real solution nor a pinpointed problem AND demand from those who don't want a change, that we justify our weapon.

 

Haha, I don't know what to say. I think, I cannot help you after all.

Edited January 2, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Otaiken]

I don't think that Penta needs balance (not to mention nerf) in the first place.

 

Penta has TERRIBLE DPS, the travel time, the fact that you have to manually detonate and the skill it takes to aim with it makes for a very bad sustained damage weapon. It's terrible against single targets too. Against high level Grineer heavies you have to shoot and airburst right above their head to do significant damage. You have to do this multiple times... and it's much less efficient than simply aiming at head and letting rip with hitscan weapon.

 

Since the damage is neither sustained or frontloaded you need to do this from cover at higher levels. You can't stay in the open with Penta as you will be dead before you manage to get your exlosions off. With fast weapons you can kill fast enough to stay in the open and this makes you much more mobile and also gives you opportunity to simultaniously collect ammo. 

 

It cannot be used from up close, that is a BIG disadvantage. Not only do you have to be extremely careful not to kill yourself, you also lose even more DPS as you have to spend more time gaining distance from the enemy. This also makes Penta useless when you get yourself surrounded. Which means that you need a significant foresight and tactical thinking since if you do get surrounded with Penta you're pretty much dead.

 

Penta is support and tactical weapon. This is mostly apparent on higher levels.. 4 players with Penta would get slaughtered by high level enemies in no time. Becuase of the weaknesses I described. It complements other weapons nicely, but is not answer to all, it's not versatile. This is also a weakness.

 

Sure you can spam and kill everything with Penta on lower levels, but that is not argument for the weapon being OP, nor to nerf its spare ammo. Not to mention that nerfing the spare ammo wouldn't make a difference here. It could make a difference on higher levels though, since you need to shoot from cover and then run around collecting ammo.. losing even more DPS.

 

Nerfing spare ammo solves nothing. It could make you feel better, but that's about it. In the best case scenarion it would be pointless (and hence not worth bothering with) and in the worst it could nerf weapon that doesn't need nerfing to begin with.

Edited January 2, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[XAN3MK]

The "problem" here is that this thread has passed the OP's point of complain A LONG time ago. I'm pretty sure that everyone (hopefully) figured out by now that the ammo count of the launchers is not the problem, per se. Those weapons will be ammo efficient no matter how you look at it.

 

The ammo is not the problem, the dispersion of firepower is.

[Nnazqul]

I don't think that Penta needs balance (not to mention nerf) in the first place.

 

Penta has TERRIBLE DPS, the travel time, the fact that you have to manually detonate and the skill it takes to aim with it makes for a very bad sustained damage weapon. It's terrible against single targets too. Against high level Grineer heavies you have to shoot and airburst right above their head to do significant damage. You have to do this multiple times... and it's much less efficient than simply aiming at head and letting rip with hitscan weapon.

 

Since the damage is neither sustained or frontloaded you need to do this from cover at higher levels. You can't stay in the open with Penta as you will be dead before you manage to get your exlosions off. With fast weapons you can kill fast enough to stay in the open and this makes you much more mobile and also gives you opportunity to simultaniously collect ammo. 

 

It cannot be used from up close, that is a BIG disadvantage. Not only do you have to be extremely careful not to kill yourself, you also lose even more DPS as you have to spend more time gaining distance from the enemy. This also makes Penta useless when you get yourself surrounded. Which means that you need a significant foresight and tactical thinking since if you do get surrounded with Penta you're pretty much dead.

 

Penta is support and tactical weapon. This is mostly apparent on higher levels.. 4 players with Penta would get slaughtered by high level enemies in no time. Becuase of the weaknesses I described. It complements other weapons nicely, but is not answer to all, it's not versatile. This is also a weakness.

 

Sure you can spam and kill everything with Penta on lower levels, but that is not argument for the weapon being OP, nor to nerf its spare ammo. Not to mention that nerfing the spare ammo wouldn't make a difference here. It could make a difference on higher levels though, since you need to shoot from cover and then run around collecting ammo.. losing even more DPS.

 

Nerfing spare ammo solves nothing. It could make you feel better, but that's about it. In the best case scenarion it would be pointless (and hence not worth bothering with) and in the worst it could nerf weapon that doesn't need nerfing to begin with.

 

people arguing wether a limitation in the engine is legitemet or not like DE has a huge choice in the matter currently

like i said before

DE isnt gona take a chance this early in adding a new ammo pool or risk movign them to sniper ammo or arrow ammo as everytime they do these things it makes alot of bugs

the weapons are already not fun to use (torid/ogris) why risk breaking them with work arounds to the ammo system that have proven very buggy and unreliable

everyones arguments wether it should stay like it is or not that it needs a nerf or not >_> are literaly no use as DE is not going to touch them till they actualy can make new ammo pools

the engin shiped with 4 ammo types and has no safe way to add new ones copying existing ammo pools and renamign them isnt gona cut it as this is core code built into the engine

 

I wish for once people would listen to reason and limitations

The end.

[Kagumin]

You think it's offtopic because I brought a similar example to make clear how much nonsense it is to talk about infinity ammo and you label it as an empty statement I hide behind? In fact you didn't really answer me, but I didn't expect so in the first place.

 

It's not me who want a change, so it is not my duty to come up with a solution, but I'll try helping... don't hate me for that, though...

 

All the solutions so far are:

1. Nerf ammo capa, make it consume sniper ammo

2. Ammo 2.0 (the word alone doesn't really count as a real solution...)

3. ?

 

Because of:

1. "Infinite ammo"

2. people should have to care about picking up ammo

3. logic/realism

 

And that without someone really stating the problem at all. What is the problem exactly?

1. "infinite" is just a catchy word. In fact, for some weapons you pick up more ammo than you need. I don't see how a ammo capa nerf would change that... not even sniper ammo.

2. it's not like people are dodging ammo packs... maybe some are hiding at one place on a defense mission. That's all? wow...

Clearing rooms did happen before penta with various frames/weapons.

3. Realism isn't it, because gameplay above all else.

 

So it must be the balancing of the weapon.. maybe. But nearly no one did care for that and instead went on with the crusade for ammo nerf or no-nerf.

Correct me if I overread a solution for a REAL balance somewhere.

 

So in the end the only thing the nerf faction has is forks and torches for great justice with neither a real solution nor a pinpointed problem AND demand from those who don't want a change, that we justify our weapon.

 

Haha, I don't know what to say. I think, I cannot help you after all.

 

Most of us have called for a "rebalance" of the Penta's ammo reserves.

A "nerf" implies a weapon/item/mechanic is overpowered to begin with.

Maybe I'm arguing in the wrong thread because the title has "nerf" in it so I'm automatically labeled a whiner/nerfhead.

 

Let me refute some of your points in the spirit of being politically correct:

 

1. Infinity is a concept, it's impossible to measure or calculate. It's a weak point to argue for both sides.

2. So Carriers don't exist then? The problem now that wasn't available before is that with the Penta, you have an "infinite" amount of room-clearing capabilities. Lemme' guess, you didn't like the Brakk's nerf because it couldn't room clear 420 nomouseblazeit across the room anymore? I can make assumptions too.

3. Some of us never advocated realism, only balance. A weapon which has great range, great AoE, insane damage, and godlike ammo efficiency needs to be balanced in one way or another. IE: Brakk

 

Now let me give you a reason why the Penta deserves an ammo tweak:

 

Sniper rifles and bows are known for a few things: range, massive damage one-shot potential, and looking stylish.

The Penta covers all bases (looks are objective), but also has AoE and amazing ammo efficiency. Both of which the snipers and bows do not have.

"But they both can have it with the right mods!" Well, why is Penta an exception? It's advertised and known as a grenade launcher, but it's able to cover all fields and more of sniper rifles and bows, so what's the point of having those two weapon classes then?

 

Again, bring the Penta total ammo down to 72 and have it draw from the sniper pool.

That's literally what the "whiners/nerfheads" are asking (or should be asking at any rate); you still have the same insane damage with AoE, the same grenade mechanics and physics, and the same firerate. Sensible balance.

 

You're saying that the risk of using it is that it kills the user more often than not. Is it really fun to pick up that same person many times and is it really that fun to get yourself killed in the midst of battle so much? If you had a arbitrary limited pool, you would be more smart on how to use your Penta. And since we're using slippery slope a lot, allow me to contribute: If you keep the ammo pool of the Penta at 540 and have it draw rifle ammo, it would make the game too easy, therefore Penta's total ammo pool should not be 540 and it should not draw from the abundant rifle ammo. 

[Kagumin]

I don't think that Penta needs balance (not to mention nerf) in the first place.

 

Penta has TERRIBLE DPS, the travel time, the fact that you have to manually detonate and the skill it takes to aim with it makes for a very bad sustained damage weapon. It's terrible against single targets too. Against high level Grineer heavies you have to shoot and airburst right above their head to do significant damage. You have to do this multiple times... and it's much less efficient than simply aiming at head and letting rip with hitscan weapon.

 

Since the damage is neither sustained or frontloaded you need to do this from cover at higher levels. You can't stay in the open with Penta as you will be dead before you manage to get your exlosions off. With fast weapons you can kill fast enough to stay in the open and this makes you much more mobile and also gives you opportunity to simultaniously collect ammo. 

 

It cannot be used from up close, that is a BIG disadvantage. Not only do you have to be extremely careful not to kill yourself, you also lose even more DPS as you have to spend more time gaining distance from the enemy. This also makes Penta useless when you get yourself surrounded. Which means that you need a significant foresight and tactical thinking since if you do get surrounded with Penta you're pretty much dead.

 

Penta is support and tactical weapon. This is mostly apparent on higher levels.. 4 players with Penta would get slaughtered by high level enemies in no time. Becuase of the weaknesses I described. It complements other weapons nicely, but is not answer to all, it's not versatile. This is also a weakness.

 

Sure you can spam and kill everything with Penta on lower levels, but that is not argument for the weapon being OP, nor to nerf its spare ammo. Not to mention that nerfing the spare ammo wouldn't make a difference here. It could make a difference on higher levels though, since you need to shoot from cover and then run around collecting ammo.. losing even more DPS.

 

Nerfing spare ammo solves nothing. It could make you feel better, but that's about it. In the best case scenarion it would be pointless (and hence not worth bothering with) and in the worst it could nerf weapon that doesn't need nerfing to begin with.

 

Let me say my thoughts on your points in a list (in order of course):

 

1. That's the problem, the Penta is not supposed to have sustained DPS, it's supposed to be a grenade launcher. It's supposed to have spiked DPS. The fact that you mention it's potential of sustained DPS indicates that it's possible only due to the massive ammo pool. I don't see any other reason why it could have the potential (the base firerate is abysmal in the first place so that point is moot).

 

2. Covered in the first point

 

3. This supports my idea of using your ammo wisely. It's meant for groups, why do you need 540 then? 72 is even MORE than enough.

 

4. Covered in third point

 

5. You just said that the Penta is a support and tactical weapon so I don't see why this is an issue if you're using it like you say it is.

 

6. Again, https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

 

We could go on and on about this, but this is what "Discussion" boards are for.

 

I'm not even going to bother replying to Nnazqul because he's probably just doing that to spite me.

[Otaiken]

Now let me give you a reason why the Penta deserves an ammo tweak:

 

Sniper rifles and bows are known for a few things: range, massive damage one-shot potential, and looking stylish.

The Penta covers all bases (looks are objective), but also has AoE and amazing ammo efficiency. Both of which the snipers and bows do not have.

"But they both can have it with the right mods!" Well, why is Penta an exception? It's advertised and known as a grenade launcher, but it's able to cover all fields and more of sniper rifles and bows, so what's the point of having those two weapon classes then?

 

Again, bring the Penta total ammo down to 72 and have it draw from the sniper pool.

That's literally what the "whiners/nerfheads" are asking (or should be asking at any rate); you still have the same insane damage with AoE, the same grenade mechanics and physics, and the same firerate. Sensible balance.

 

You're saying that the risk of using it is that it kills the user more often than not. Is it really fun to pick up that same person many times and is it really that fun to get yourself killed in the midst of battle so much? If you had a arbitrary limited pool, you would be more smart on how to use your Penta. And since we're using slippery slope a lot, allow me to contribute: If you keep the ammo pool of the Penta at 540 and have it draw rifle ammo, it would make the game too easy, therefore Penta's total ammo pool should not be 540 and it should not draw from the abundant rifle ammo. 

 

 

Penta most certainly doesn't cover everything Sniper Rifles can do. It has terrible range, it has significant travel time and arcing (even when compared to bows) and Sniper Rifles can still be used in close range whereas Penta can't be. So saying that Penta is better than sniper rifles at everything they do is really not true.

 

And sniper rifles have several problems that make them inferior choice to pretty much anything in this game.

 

1) There are very few big tiles where you could take full advantage of the range.

2) Enemies spawn in large numbers, this results in most of your shots being needless overkill.. but that overkill still costs you the same amount of ammo that the big targets do.

3) Taking out those big targets on range is not important enough to balance the disadvantages and you can do that with DPS centric weapons just as well.

 

This means that sniper rifles are not very versatile weapons. Soma has great damage, DPS and accuracy. You can sniper with it if you control your bursts, but it's also good for every other situation... sniper rifle isn't. And bows are underpowered for many reasons... but bows being underpowered is not a reason to nerf Penta.

 

And number one reason experienced penta user kills himself is his teammates running in front of him.. definitely not spamming blindlessly. Also, claiming that people will be more careful with it given more limited ammo is baseless conjecture. You're guessing here.. that is not exactly a good argument.

 

And Penta doesn't make the game too easy. If anything it makes it harder as it is significantly harder to use compared to weapons like Flux Rifle, Soma or even sniper rifles. You need to learn to play tactically.. arc and bounce your shots, hit Corpus so you don't headshot them and hit Grineer so you DO headshot them. You can also get fancy and explode grenades behind MOAs to hit their back weakspot. There is a lot of finesse to Penta.

 

At lower levels you might be able to spam and kill everything. At higher ones Corpus will laugh at your airbursts and Grineer heavies will laugh at you in general... especially if you don't headshot them. And headshoting entire group of enemies is not that easy... and gets even harder with range as it's harder to judge the distance between the grenade and enemies... no Penta is definitely not easy weapon to use.

[Otaiken]

Let me say my thoughts on your points in a list (in order of course):

 

1. That's the problem, the Penta is not supposed to have sustained DPS, it's supposed to be a grenade launcher. It's supposed to have spiked DPS. The fact that you mention it's potential of sustained DPS indicates that it's possible only due to the massive ammo pool. I don't see any other reason why it could have the potential (the base firerate is abysmal in the first place so that point is moot).

 

2. Covered in the first point

 

3. This supports my idea of using your ammo wisely. It's meant for groups, why do you need 540 then? 72 is even MORE than enough.

 

4. Covered in third point

 

5. You just said that the Penta is a support and tactical weapon so I don't see why this is an issue if you're using it like you say it is.

 

6. Again, https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

 

We could go on and on about this, but this is what "Discussion" boards are for.

 

I'm not even going to bother replying to Nnazqul because he's probably just doing that to spite me.

 

Whre exactly did I say it had a potential for sustained DPS? I said several times that it has terrible sustained DPS. How did you even get that out of my post? That isn't changed by the fact that it has 540 ammo, that is the limitation of the weapon in itself.. ammo capacity has nothing to do with that.

 

Also, you should read that link properly yourself. There are 2 possible outcomes, 1) Change will be solely cosmetic, hence it's pointless to bother with in the first place (why should DE waste their time to make some people feel better? or 2) It could nerf the weapon, which would be bad as it doesn't need nerfing

 

How is that slippery slope, that's simply saying that imho this change has 2 outcomes and neither one of them is beneficial to anybody. So there is no point in even trying.. 

 

What WOULD be slippery slope? If I said that once we started nerfing the remaining ammo DE would start nerfing it for all other weapons like Soma etc. now THAT is slippery slote. Saying that reducing ammo could nerf weapon that doesn't need nerfing is simple cause and undesirable effect. For the benefit of all of us please read up on this some more.. I know some argumentation theory and yet I hesitate to post about biases as lack of understanding can see you fall into biases yourself.. and they can also often be used as disguised attacks and tries to discredit opponents.

Edited January 2, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Kagumin]

Penta most certainly doesn't cover everything Sniper Rifles can do. It has terrible range, it has significant travel time and arcing (even when compared to bows) and Sniper Rifles can still be used in close range whereas Penta can't be. So saying that Penta is better than sniper rifles at everything they do is really not true.

 

And sniper rifles have several problems that make them inferior choice to pretty much anything in this game.

 

1) There are very few big tiles where you could take full advantage of the range.

2) Enemies spawn in large numbers, this results in most of your shots being needless overkill.. but that overkill still costs you the same amount of ammo that the big targets do.

3) Taking out those big targets on range is not important enough to balance the disadvantages and you can do that with DPS centric weapons just as well.

 

This means that sniper rifles are not very versatile weapons. Soma has great damage, DPS and accuracy. You can sniper with it if you control your bursts, but it's also good for every other situation... sniper rifle isn't. And bows are underpowered for many reasons... but bows being underpowered is not a reason to nerf Penta.

 

And number one reason experienced penta user kills himself is his teammates running in front of him.. definitely not spamming blindlessly. Also, claiming that people will be more careful with it given more limited ammo is baseless conjecture. You're guessing here.. that is not exactly a good argument.

 

And Penta doesn't make the game too easy. If anything it makes it harder as it is significantly harder to use compared to weapons like Flux Rifle, Soma or even sniper rifles. You need to learn to play tactically.. arc and bounce your shots, hit Corpus so you don't headshot them and hit Grineer so you DO headshot them. You can also get fancy and explode grenades behind MOAs to hit their back weakspot. There is a lot of finesse to Penta.

 

At lower levels you might be able to spam and kill everything. At higher ones Corpus will laugh at your airbursts and Grineer heavies will laugh at you in general... especially if you don't headshot them. And headshoting entire group of enemies is not that easy... and gets even harder with range as it's harder to judge the distance between the grenade and enemies... no Penta is definitely not easy weapon to use.

 

Your three points literally just invalidated what you said about Penta not being able to cover everything Sniper Rifles do.

1) Range

2) See, now you're saying that enemies spawn in large numbers, something the Penta exceeds in that the Sniper does not, but the Penta exceeds in more areas too. IE: Ammo efficiency and AoE, pick one to rebalance or remove the sniper class and rename it to specialist class then.

3) You just said it's a support and tactical weapon, pick one side man.

 

You know what the Soma lacks that the Penta does not? Ammo efficiency. That is the sole "problem". A gun is as useful as what type of ammo it fires and how much ammo it has.

Bows are a different story altogether so I won't argue that.

 

You know what else is a baseless conjecture? Balancing the ammo count wouldn't do anything or make the gun more useless on higher levels. You're guessing here, that is not exactly a good argument either.

 

Good, it's fun to use, how would balancing the ammo affect that factor if you state it will do nothing?

 

I don't get it, you use the keyword "experienced" in one of your arguments, then you bring up a mechanic that "experienced" players should know but say it's now useless. Why? An "experienced" player would know how to use the Penta in that situation then, except, he would be smart in using his ammo and not kill himself. (of course, that's just a "baseless conjecture" right?)

 

I don't understand how you can argue against something that will not affect you at all.

[Kagumin]

Whre exactly did I say it had a potential for sustained DPS? I said several times that it has terrible sustained DPS. How did you even get that out of my post? That isn't changed by the fact that it has 540 ammo, that is the limitation of the weapon in itself.. ammo capacity has nothing to do with that.

 

Also, you should read that link properly yourself. There are 2 possible outcomes, 1) Change will be solely cosmetic, hence it's pointless to bother with in the first place (why should DE waste their time to make some people feel better? or 2) It could nerf the weapon, which would be bad as it doesn't need nerfing

 

How is that slippery slope, that's simply saying that imho this change has 2 outcomes and neither one of them is beneficial to anybody. So there is no point in even trying.. 

 

What WOULD be slippery slope? If I said that once we started nerfing the remaining ammo DE would start nerfing it for all other weapons like Soma etc. now THAT is slippery slote. Saying that reducing ammo could nerf weapon that doesn't need nerfing is simple cause and undesirable effect. For the benefit of all of us please read up on this some more.. I know some argumentation theory and yet I hesitate to post about biases as lack of understanding can see you fall into biases yourself.. and they can also often be used as disguised attacks and tries to discredit opponents.

 

You literally just said you didn't say it then said you said it. I said the fact that you mentioned sustained DPS means it has the potential to, not you saying it personally.

 

It's slippery slope because you said "if you balance the Penta's ammo, it will either 1) not doing anything or 2) make it possibly useless, therefore you should not balance Penta ammo".

 

What? If it doesn't do anything negative to affect you, but it positively affects others, why not do it? There'd be less of these threads for you to respond to as well, so I don't see how this course of action is wrong. And how would it make the weapon useless? How do you know that? The weapon has overwhelming traits in almost every category while the only downside is the risk of killing yourself.

 

Also, I hope you enjoyed exploring and learning from that website.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Kagumin

[Otaiken]

It's baseless conjecture because you have no proof or logic behind it. Saying that players will change their behavior based on ammo count is baseless. I said that players will change their behavior based on experience, which is much more feasible. Hence the tendency of players to kill themselves stems from their inexperince and changing ammo count will have no effect on it. Could less ammo speed that up? No sure, probably not.. but better than saying what you said.

 

What I have is simple reasoning. You change ammo count, this will have outcome. Outcomes are as thus:

 

It makes the weapon performance stronger (I felt that this could be dismissed, wouldn't you agree?)

It makes no difference to weapon's performace, hence this change is cosmetic <- Here I argue that it would be pointless to even bother with it

It makes the weapon performance weaker <- Here I argue that the weapon doesn't need to be weaker

 

But I never once said that it would DEFINITELY make the weapon weaker. No, my core argument was that no matter the outcome, all possible outcomes are bad. Either DE wastes their time for something that makes no difference. Or they makes alright weapon worse.

 

Also, I didn't say it would make it "useless", I said nerf it. You added the useless.. you use hyperbole there and no.. it still isn't slippery slope. You fail to see the nuances. I could argue that the fact that you turned "nerfed" to "useless" is slippery slope.. but I won't as it isn't. It's needless hyperbole, but it ain't quite slippery slope yet.

 

You see.. you fancy yourself great at argumentation.. but you're really not. You completely missed the core of my argument and went straight for attacks and fallen for biases yourself.

Edited January 2, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Otaiken]

As for the sniper rifle argument.. you assume sniper rifles are balanced weapons in Warframe (which they are imho not, because of the way Warframe functions to begin with) and Penta being better at everything (which it is not) makes Penta OP and that's why.. it shoud.. use sniper ammo (what?).

 

Penta is good at what it does, killing groups of enemies. The way Warframe is build makes being able to clear groups of enemies superior trait to have compared to high single target damage. That is not argument against Penta.. that is Penta working as intended in a game that favors that approach.

 

And snipers still work up close and have better range than Penta... how is that invalid argument? You said Penta is better at everything save for looks.. well, it isn't.. provably so. That's your failiure for making too broad of an argument.. not mine.

 

 

PS: I don't use quotes since it's already too much mess to bother with.

Edited January 2, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Nnazqul]

I don't like the number 540, make it 70 !

Good argumentation bro..

 

how ridiculous these threads are