Damnit The Damage System...

[Eremes]

the codex really helps with it but theres still the issue you are building a gun with 2 elements to work against a single faction. if you cant you must get 2 guns and figure out what is best gun for what enemy.

 

worse is that in a attempt to eliminate rainbow builds this quite failed. you need 3 element mods to make the most against a single faction. void is a mess but it seems radiation and cold does it all.

[Kato-san]

Let me simplify it for u.

Gas = infested
Corrosive = grineer
Magnetic = corpus
Fairly simple.

[bobafetthotmail]

But balance is great, right?  Whoever asked for balance needs to die. 

I'm somehow missing how you are connecting this with balance. I mean, if I ask for a glass of water and they give me a glass of pee is it my fault because I asked for a glass of water?

 

For the rest I agree. I'm here to blow S#&$ up with Ogris (and now Penta), adding all this nonsense does not make it fun (nor harder actually)

 

Infinitely scaling Armor is an inherently broken system. It needs to go.

Too drastic. It just needs to increase more slowly. Fixed armor is either impervious to noobs OR irrelevant to late gamers and it would be even more frustrating.

 

 

Armor should be Ablative or a Health Pool itself that will "break" after enough damage and remove the damage reduction.

Psst, we have shields that work like that already (HP pool that is exhausted before the main HP pool).

Besides this would add another parameter that if fixed is hilarious, and if scaling defiles the point.

 

 

Elemental resistances/bonus need to step at 15%, not 25%.

Elemtnal Sub-types should have resistances based on their parent element, not unique to themselves. Steps should be 7.5% where they don't cancel out.

Amazing. Thanks for bringing back D 1.0. Full Rainbow builds for everything and one-build-fits-all.

 

Those increments are simply too low to be worth caring for any serious weapon.

[Lazer]

Let me simplify it for u.

Gas = infested

Corrosive = grineer

Magnetic = corpus

Fairly simple.

 

I don't know much about dmg 2.1.6.3.2 or whatever we're on now but from looking at the charts on wiki this set up won't do much for you against specific enemies. Seems you'll actually have trouble with the harder enemies.

 

For example

 

Gas will help you against "infested" and "flesh" (chargers/leapers and crawlers) but won't do anything for you against fossilized or sinew (ancients).

 

So a more ideal build for infested in my opinion to get more coverage would be a good slash based weapon with corrosive and heat. You'll get good coverage against everything but Healer Ancients (Sinew). Or even a good puncture with corrosive and heat to give you full positive coverage across the board.

 

Similar cases for Grineer and Corpus.

 

Grineer Puncture/Radiation/Toxic

 

Corpus Impact/Viral/Electric

 

Just looking at the chart on wiki, not actually from practice. Feel free to correct me.

[Flatus]

I like the system and dont find it complex. But I didn't like that I needed to alt-tab every time I change my loadout when I dont have option for dual-elements in my low level weapons, and thus have to check some specific element if I dont happen to remember it. But after week of playing I dont have even that problem anymore.

[VoidGhost]

Look, are we done with this now? Can I frame it yet?

 

 

 

But... I...

 

 

 

...

 

I do one thing and it may be funny I put various mods until overall damage reaches 4000 :) (or more)

[Eremes]

(bluh)

 

Just looking at the chart on wiki, not actually from practice. Feel free to correct me.

you are quite right.

 

some grineer heavies have alloy armor. radiation or cold to deal with them. best combos are corrosive and cold or radiation and toxic, depending on the level you will face, wich might spawn less minigunners (ferrite) and more napalms/bombardiers (alloy).

 

corpus have shields that are currently bypassed by toxic (but not viral for some odd reason) and are universally weak to magnetic. fortunadely its possible to use both. tech and some moas (i think?) use protoshield, weak to poison and magnetic plus resistant to a lot of things.

 

infested are al over the place. corrosive and heat does it, however only healers are fossilized for what i saw, so you can forego corrosive for the best part of your playtime.

[Sylorknag]

Lol,.. u should have learned that by now,..

 

we want less grinding = more grinding

we want more diversity in the missions = still absolutly NO diversity in missions..

we want more diversity in the dynamic events, = grind the same mission 50+ times to get the rewards..

 

and so on and so forth...

 

 

I still love this game and still play several hours a day, even with over 600 hrs logged,.. i just wish they would actually implement the changes they talk about implementing in the livestreams..

Nailed, I've been playing for two weeks and I'm already tired of the grind... ffs, using a FORMA resets your item.. Everything here is made for people to grind their lifes out, just pathetic.

[Kato-san]

I don't know much about dmg 2.1.6.3.2 or whatever we're on now but from looking at the charts on wiki this set up won't do much for you against specific enemies. Seems you'll actually have trouble with the harder enemies.

 

For example

 

Gas will help you against "infested" and "flesh" (chargers/leapers and crawlers) but won't do anything for you against fossilized or sinew (ancients).

 

So a more ideal build for infested in my opinion to get more coverage would be a good slash based weapon with corrosive and heat. You'll get good coverage against everything but Healer Ancients (Sinew). Or even a good puncture with corrosive and heat to give you full positive coverage across the board.

 

Similar cases for Grineer and Corpus.

 

Grineer Puncture/Radiation/Toxic

 

Corpus Impact/Viral/Electric

 

Just looking at the chart on wiki, not actually from practice. Feel free to correct me.

 

This list i made was good vs the majority of enemies of each faction. The non majority, so called rarer spawns u can just aim for their weak spot to do lots dmg to them. Instead of doing only good dmg to the rarer spawns and less vs the majority.  But yah your build works too.

[Brasten]

bobafetthotmail, on 26 Dec 2013 - 4:03 PM, said:

Too drastic. It just needs to increase more slowly. Fixed armor is either impervious to noobs OR irrelevant to late gamers and it would be even more frustrating.

Fixed Percentage, not fixed value. 50% DR is still 50% DR at any level of play. Since the HP is still every scaling upwards along with the damage output of a player the net effect should be the same. Continuing to push the DR higher and higher will eventually hit

 

bobafetthotmail, on 26 Dec 2013 - 4:03 PM, said:

Psst, we have shields that work like that already (HP pool that is exhausted before the main HP pool).

Besides this would add another parameter that if fixed is hilarious, and if scaling defiles the point.

Fix DR%, scaling HP pools. Shields are indeed yet another health pool. One that regenerates. The math behind having ARmor as pure unremovable damage reduction is rather comical. There is 0 reason why it shouldn't be a 3rd health pool.

Shiels: A health pool that regenerates, and has one set of resistances/weakness.

Armor: A health pool with a Static DR% (based on Unit), and has a different set of resistances.

Health: A 3rd health pool with nothing special (save weak against Slashing), no real resistances.

In the long run the advantage of a 3 pool health system is it allows you to create enemies that are mix of those properties: Regeneration, Damage Reduction, and just HP bag. In Shields you can have a mix of Deep Shields HP with slow regne, or shallow with fast regen (when not being shot). Armor with a STATIC DR% that can be broken can be the majority of a enemies HP or a very small pool of wickedly high DR.

I would also like to point out that "Shields" is perhaps a misnomer as this can also apply to a layer of regenerating "flesh" such as on an Infested unit.

If you want to get really crazy change the Order of those pools. Put Armor out first, then "Infested Sields", then health. Maybe put Health out front, Shields, Armor. About the only thing you wouldn't put last would be "shields" unless they are in a state of constant regeneration (or had a very quick restart on the regen).

 

bobafetthotmail, on 26 Dec 2013 - 4:03 PM, said:

Amazing. Thanks for bringing back D 1.0. Full Rainbow builds for everything and one-build-fits-all.

Those increments are simply too low to be worth caring for any serious weapon.

Rainbow builds only existed because they were maximizing damage. Any build will seek to maximize damage Step increments of 15% instead of 25% allows a finer adjustment without making certain weapons or elements near irrelevant.

If Shields are given an inherent resistance to Heat (15%) and Toxic (15%). Corpus are given 2 Combos (weak/resist): Cold/Heat, Electric/Toxi.

A Corpus unit will have Shield Resistances (Heat 30%, Toxic 15%) and (Heat 15%, Toxic 30%).

If you think that BASE is too low take it up 1 step move Shields & Armor to (30%). This is why I say steps of 15%. 15% is the same rate as the typical Damage mod. Some are 10%, but most are 15%. Stepping 25% at at time is WAY too much at almost 2 Ranks of Mod negated per step. One 15% step at a time will help keep things under control. It also puts a practical number to the issue.

"How many Ranks of X Mod does this resist?"

Sub-Elements should flow from their Parent Elements. This is a logic issue more than anything. Just look at the mess that is the current resistance structure. You want to talk about fighting Rainbow Builds! Blast Corrosive for Grineer. Here is logic. Cold and Heat only get a 25% bonus vs 1 "flesh" type. Max Rank Cryo Rounds brings 90%, Hellfire brings 90%. As Blast they are 180%, or 155% vs Ferrite. Put another way Heat and Cold have no special advantage on their own Ferrite so Adding a cyro Rounds is like giving your Hellfire an extra +65%. Against Flesh and Alloy, again its like getting a 65% instead of the 25%. In addition you pick up a 75% against Machinery free of charge (well at the cost of the Mod energy for Cryo Rounds). If you have the free mod energy and slot why would you not do this?

If breaking Rainbow builds is a concern of yours (and given the way Damage 2.0 is progressing, I think DE was bundle Damage and Armor into the same rebuild, when Armor still isn't fixed) then you need to follow the Math, not magical "lets do it at random 25% chunks and make up 30 different 'flesh' types."

Rainbow builds result from the idea of maximizing damage for the Mod Cost. Sadly because the only real way to boost damage is actually fairly limited they WILL happen. Lets look at Rifles. Serration and Multishot are always part of any Damage boost (2 mods), assuming the weapon isn't a Crit machine your options are Heavy Caliber and/or one of the Sub-Damage mods (Puncture boost because Grineer) (4 mods now). This leaves 4 mods. Of course you're going to jam on the only other damage boosting mods, the elementals. There are no other options!

If DE wants to kill Rainbow builds they need other options that can be used to Maximize on a damage type.

DE has done nothing to fix Armor in the long play, they just kicked the can down the road by adjusting the curve (there shouldn't even be a curve). They didn't "get rid" of Rainbow builds.

=====

Static DR% as an attribute of the Unit.

"Armor" with that static DR as a depletable health pool.

More mod options for increasing damage to take advantage to Weakness. Wild Fire is great example. On Grineer using Wildfire over Cryo Rounds nets you (60 mod + 25 vs Clone flesh) 85 vs the 65 of having Cryo rounds creating Blast. Assuming you don't mind losing the magic 75% to Machinery. That is how you "break" rainbow builds. Not through some over-complex multi-resistance-multi-flesh-spreadsheet-looking-nonsocial-black-magic.

If you want to encourage players to put different "builds" on their 3 weapons you need 3 damage pools, to go along with the 3 sub-type damages.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Brasten

[Soul_Shinobi]

We should consider, what it is that DE actually wants. I suspect the damage system complexities are to encourage modifying each weapon differently, and using a different weapon for a different situation within a level.  I think this gameplay variety is the intent.

[f3llyn]

We should consider, what it is that DE actually wants. I suspect the damage system complexities are to encourage modifying each weapon differently, and using a different weapon for a different situation within a level.  I think this gameplay variety is the intent.

 

Who knows. DE has never said what they want to achieve with the damage system (or the entire game for that matter) so all we can do is speculate.

Edited December 27, 2013 by f3llyn

[Soul_Shinobi]

*sigh*

 

[Liminal]

Get ready to crumple those.

[Katakuna]

*sigh*

 

Don't get too comfy, DE will probably randomize the resistances again next week.

[Brasten]

This is relevant. No seriously it is relevant. Don't believe me skip toward the end at 19:16, where TB is taking about the improvements needed.

http://youtu.be/Lneda8u71us

[Soul_Shinobi]

*sigh* Okay... Let's do this...

 

 

 

EDIT: Oh, it was literally one thing, thank god. Cloned Flesh gained 25% resistance to impact.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Soul_Shinobi

[Zoliru]

get ready for the new Shield type

 

Swag Shield -100% dmg with ALL elementals

[(PSN)Alsark]

Let me simplify it for u.

Gas = infested

Corrosive = grineer

Magnetic = corpus

Fairly simple.

 

The even more confusing thing is that apparently, since PS4 is behind on updates... this doesn't apply to us.

 

So I have absolutely no idea what to think -.-'

[Aishi]

Possible 3 element combinations on normal element weapon:
Blast + Corrosive (Fire/Ice, Electric/Toxin)
Gas + Magnetic (Toxin/Fire, Ice/Electric)
Radiation + Viral (Fire/Electric, Ice/Toxin)

Blast + Corrosive for general use - 125% elements on Ancients, 50% on Heavy Gunners
Radiation for Grineer - More damage for Napalms
Magnetic for Corpus - Rips shields apart

That's it.

 

[shut]

get ready for the new Shield type

 

Swag Shield -100% dmg with ALL elementals

TIL Corpus boxheads are made out of swag shields

[DHKany]

lol "too complex ermagerd" 

[(PSN)InstaShark]

lolgas

 

Who even uses that element?

 

On a more serious note, will Stormbringer be dropped more often than a Rare card in the next update or what?

Edited January 17, 2014 by (PS4)InstaShark

[Aishi]

lol "too complex ermagerd" 

I know right, it's like people need to actually read or research their weapons instead of picking the biggest number. Grr!

And don't bring up the "we need this stuff in game" argument as that's based on another principle, be grateful this community and the wiki is outstanding.

And yes, Gas is trash. It's just a neutral element by technicality because it has no downsides against the problem mobs. As if the smaller mobs like leapers and chargers are even an issue, Corrosive+Blast for Ancients are all you need.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Aishi