Nerf The Vanguard Rhino Helm

[Bubsters]

[Helljack84]

So I ran this low level mission with my Thrak helmet, killed every single enemy, looted all the things and never touched the sprint button.

Still had to wait a good two minutes at extraction.

 

Ninjaturtles won't get faster by nerfing Vanguard helmet.

[Revel72]

Back in closed beta the rhino wasn't a slow runner. Frame speed was more normalized.

When they switched him to being slow it was quite a disappointment for a lot of us.

The Vanguard helmet is a way for us to get back what we had...and we appreciate it a lot.

 

 

FYI Vanguard rhino still wont outrun frames like loki.

As for excaliber and Vlakyr perhaps you should be asking yourself why they have the speed they have and whether it is right for them.

 

Also, who ever said that rhino was supposed to be slow? That isn't in his description anywhere.

 

BULL S#&$! Rhino with Dual Zoren or even with Galatine rush and Vanguard outruns stock Loki. You sir grab your keyboard and throw it to lake... If there is one yet frozen.

 

Just remove the stats of the Vanguard or give the Vanguard health penalty about 20% because it is @(*()$ annoying to see Rhino running around faster than Stock Loki.

[taiiat]

Rhino with Dual Zoren or even with Galatine rush and Vanguard outruns stock Loki.

while i agree in principle, it's not actually true. 1.12 vs 1.25. Loki IS still faster. but that isn't even remotely the point, being faster than the dedicated Speed Frames is so far from the point.

 

the averages at 1.0 and 'slightly fast' at 1.1 do rather get trumped by Vanguard. while this isn't the end of the world, like many other things, that helmet is one that has arguably the biggest bonus of any helmet, and arguably the least detriment. 

it's getting multiple things that you'd ever want, at the same time. people don't want to lose stats, and they want to gain others that they well, want. that helmet fulfills that. 

 

 

Ninjaturtles won't get faster by nerfing Vanguard helmet.

exploiting Spindashes is a common thing, yes. but it doesn't change the issue at face value, only the result for the player with many, many, many hours into Warframe. 

the direct comparison between the issue at hand and the other frames, does clearly have an issue (unless you really consider absolutely negligible side effects to actually be terrible, which in that case, you should look around more).

 

Of course by the time they'd make that change coptering would need to have been already fixed/nerfed as well, otherwise it would render the point moot. But chances of that happening soon are pretty good since they're reworking the melee system. So yeah, I'd expect things in that regard to change quite Soon.

perhaps. i wouldn't be hugely surprised either.

as long as my Spindashes still have tactical use. if i can still extend my time in the air (we can call it Gliding instead of Flying then), i'm content. i don't need to warp across the room, i just want to extend my time in the air so i can quickly reposition behind the enemy for an advantage.

[Ronyn]

BULL S#&$! Rhino with Dual Zoren or even with Galatine rush and Vanguard outruns stock Loki. You sir grab your keyboard and throw it to lake... If there is one yet frozen.

 

Just remove the stats of the Vanguard or give the Vanguard health penalty about 20% because it is @(*()$ annoying to see Rhino running around faster than Stock Loki.

My point is that you have to compare the frames with equal weaponry and mods to get a fair answer.

My Loki easily outruns my vanguard rhino when they are equally geared.

 

 

that helmet is one that has arguably the biggest bonus of any helmet, and arguably the least detriment. 

it's getting multiple things that you'd ever want, at the same time. people don't want to lose stats, and they want to gain others that they well, want. that helmet fulfills that. 

Yes indeed. Again, the many things that do very little make the things that do a lot seem all the more overbearing.

In truth, we need to make the other things more valuable regardless of what happens with the Vanguard helm.

Sadly most of these "nerf vanguard" arguments are based on comparison of who someone perceived to be the intended faster slower frames.

That is only one part of the whole equation. A part that is skewing the thought process.

Instead I say we look at each frame,each ability, each piece of gear, and work to make it viable in its role within the game.

 

 

umm you do know the loki is supposed to be faster?  frames that are tanky like rhino should be slow.

Yes Loki should be faster...and he is.

but where is the rule that tanky frames should be slow in general?

 

I support this completely. As much as I enjoy being saved by a speedy Rhino, the helmet needs a nerf. 25% speed boost is crazy for a tank! Rhino is like .9 speed, and 25% bonus makes it 1.125, which I believe is 4th place in speed behind Loki, Nova, and Ash. 10% okay, but 25%?!?! Pls nerf it, DE. I am crying as I am writing this.

Why is it "crazy for a tank"?.

Where is the "tanks must be slow" point of view coming from?

 

 

SSsssoooo yooou want... to be dead on the field 'cause the guardian tanks can't get to you any longer... and like the idea... of mission fails due to lack of available hands to contribute to missions since they have fallen on the field... what?

Right! See, that's just it. Vanguard Rhino tanks by getting to where they need to be quickly.

I can't even count how many times I've used the vanguard rhino and iron skin to rush to someones aid for rezes or blocking. 

For those wondering-I can get to them even faster with my stealth Loki and rez without even getting hit...

Edited December 31, 2013 by Ronyn

[letir]

Rhino is a Barbarian. Barbarians have a bonus speed in D&D. Vanguard is fine.

[Ronyn]

Rhino is a Barbarian. Barbarians have a bonus speed in D&D. Vanguard is fine.

Indeed. I've used this description myself as well.

 

 

not really. faster frames were blazing fast, slower frames were only minorly slow.

 

now the difference is less extreme, for good reason. there is a .4 difference between almost all frames in the game for their Sprint Speed.

 

i'm glad we don't have Loki at 1.6 anymore. with Rush he'd go fast enough to warp and cause collision issues due to ping.

he'd also look dumb as hell with the running animation going all kinds of goofy because he'd be moving faster than player update ticks.

 

and Vanguard doesn't let Rhino (only Rhino mind you, it's not like Frost has one of these helmets) get back what you had. it lets you get faster than what you had. (edit: - wait a second, i had that backwards. so many updates to remember. Frost and Rhino are 0.9 now, and were 0.8 before the Sprint Speed changes. so they've actually gotten faster since way back in Closed Beta. so now that just makes the whole situation very confusing - wanting what you had back, would be going slower).

this helmet doesn't bring Rhino back to 0.9, it brings him up to 1.12. that's ~0.2 faster than he was in Closed Beta.

 

that justification has gaping holes in it.

In case I wasn't entirely clear. 

Incomparable aspects make mathematics based comparisons somewhat limited in scope.

 

With the myriad of changes to the core movement style and inclusion of additional frames....

Rhino's place on the battlefeild is hard to directly equate to the old way in the literal sense. 

Hence why I am referring to here is the way that rhino "felt" to me in CB.

Here is what I mean: In very early CB there was no Frost. So there was no one who could create an impenetrable sphere and send out a freeze to stop an enemy from killing an ally at a distance. (thats not even getting into how nova can destroy whole armies or how nyx can turn them on themselves) 

Back then Rhino was the best choice for "tanking" any mission type that involved the need for a stationary defense style action.

Because at least he had iron skin and stomp. Back then stomp was pure cc and he didn't have roar to buff allies.

As it stands now, if I'm doing a high level defense mission against corpus or Grineer I am better off bringing my frost as I can stop a ton of incoming fire. 

These days Rhino cannot match frost at the job of stationary defense(which is all the more important now with how popular defense missions are)....a job he use to own. No, rhino's role has shifted a bit.

To keep that sense he used to give of being the "tough guy" in the group....he has two options.

1: He has to be even more sturdy than ever. Hence the thrak helmet, though that still wont let him stop as much incoming fire from hitting his allies as snowglobe will. So in the standing fortress style of play Rhino is still not going to take the top spot.

2: He has to be the more mobile tank, hence the Vanguard helmut, as he is required to get to places for offensive, defensive and support actions.

For me to get that feeling of rhino being the go to heavy frame, that mix of speed and power I first felt when I played warframe....the Vanguard helmuts speed boost helps.It is this one role that rhino stands out, where he has a unique niche among the frames.

 

So I have no issues with your numbers, I just want you to understand what I am speaking of here.

Hope that clears it up.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Ronyn

[Revel72]

while i agree in principle, it's not actually true. 1.12 vs 1.25. Loki IS still faster. but that isn't even remotely the point, being faster than the dedicated Speed Frames is so far from the point.

 

That speed buff should be dropped at total of 1.0 when using rush mod [Maxed] too. Do you even know how many games has fast tank themed soldier/ninja? Yeah pretty much no any games. TF2 heavy is only fast when using those running urgently gloves but is extremely dangerous you will be bombed down by mini critical hits if you wear them.

 

League of Legends. Basically all tanks in there are somewhat slow but there is exceptions and builds to make them fast but mostly they are slow.

 

World of Tanks what I have heard so much about there healthiest tanks are pretty much slowest.

 

Skyrim heavy armor at the start of the game makes you move slow and run spending more stamina exception if you get a perk what takes off this penalty.

 

Everything what makes tanky with a lot of damage move faster is always OP. Nerf that movement speed bonus and add bigger penalty that helmet is just way too good for everything. Pretty much Ultimately best all around helmet than any other helmet in game,

 

I only gave examples of core meaning of the game play of tank. Nearly forgot to mention too in minecraft games. All tanky armored persons will be slower too but there is exceptions too.

 

I don't damn understand the point why in the hell who ever created that helmet? Had wrong on his head. Rhino is pretty much already too good even if the Rhino stomp is nerfed.

 

 

My point is that you have to compare the frames with equal weaponry and mods to get a fair answer.

My Loki easily outruns my vanguard rhino when they are equally geared.

 

 

Good lies... *wink*

[taiiat]

Rhino's place on the battlefield is hard to directly equate to the old way in the literal sense. 

 

2: He has to be the more mobile tank, hence the Vanguard helmet, as he is required to get to places for offensive, defensive and support actions.

For me to get that feeling of rhino being the go to heavy frame, that mix of speed and power I first felt when I played warframe....the Vanguard helmuts speed boost helps.It is this one role that rhino stands out, where he has a unique niche among the frames.

certainly valid points. (Rhino was never good for Defense though, lol, he's not a Defensive frame). 

 

and while i'd totally go for changing things around a bit here and there to make the alternate stats fit for everyone - having Rhino faster than 1.1 with Vanguard feels wrong. yes, i am talking about the extra 0.025. (edit: could be OCD kicking in though)

 

while it should probably happen, i am always pretty hesitant to do the normal 'add a zero to everything else' general answer to anything being 'better' than other things. 

as if we added zeroes until all Melee's were comparable to Ichor or Galatine, or all guns comparable to Soma or Synapse, all we'd have done was make the game even blazingly easier than it is to start with.

and then we'd end up adding zeroes to the enemies, and we'd probably end up back where we started. this is a common loop for Warframe. it's happened many times.

 

Good lies... *wink*

they're only lies if you're only capable of moving efficiently by having powers do it for you. or moving efficiently period. 

 

offensive response in, offensive response out.

Edited January 1, 2014 by taiiat

[VagrantPrime]

How about instead of nerfing one helmet we buff the rest to match. I mean these helmets are relatively hard to acquire through non-paying means, let's make them worth the trouble.

[Ronyn]

Do you even know how many games has fast tank themed soldier/ninja? Yeah pretty much no any games. TF2 heavy is only fast when using those running urgently gloves but is extremely dangerous you will be bombed down by mini critical hits if you wear them.

League of Legends. Basically all tanks in there are somewhat slow but there is exceptions and builds to make them fast but mostly they are slow.

World of Tanks what I have heard so much about there healthiest tanks are pretty much slowest.

Skyrim heavy armor at the start of the game makes you move slow and run spending more stamina exception if you get a perk what takes off this penalty.

Comparing Warframe to other games is somewhat tricky considering...but ok lets do that.

Barbarians in D&D are faster than most of the other classes. (why assume rhino is the Fighter equivalent in D&D?)

League has several tanky/bruiser champs who's average builds make them faster than average. (Rhino could also be classified as a bruiser)

Prot warriors in WOW are often effectively fast movers due to their charge moves on low cd (or at least they were way back when I played wow)

Tf2 heavy is slow but then in KZ2 the heaviest guy was the fastest runner....for whatever that is worth.

 

Now games like world of tanks and other vehicle based games aren't something I'd consider an accurate comparison.

Elder scrolls series and many other fantasy games do usually have the tanky characters slow...

Keep in mind I am not saying that slow tank characters aren't common, I am simply saying that it fastish tanky types aren't unheard of.

And again..at what point did DE ever say they intended Rhino to be particularly slow? They haven't. In fact they have said that they don't want to cram frames into the common archetypes too much. Which makes me wonder if rhino was ever meant to be the type of tank you might envision him to be.

Moreover, what is it about rhinos speed that actually makes him a problem in warframe?

Everything what makes tanky with a lot of damage move faster is always OP. 

This is a factually wrong but commonly held point of view. It depends on the system. A characters power level is defined by several factors.

Things like effective range, crowd control, and general utility need to be brought into the equation. Not to mention one has to take the objective of a battle into account to define what attributes are most desirable.

In Warframe, depending on what the mission is, rhino isn't the most effective choice. 

 

 

Good lies... *wink*

The movement speed numbers back it up.

 

 

certainly valid points. (Rhino was never good for Defense though, lol, he's not a Defensive frame). 

He was not so great in the grand scheme  but he was the best we had at one point in time. lol

 

and while i'd totally go for changing things around a bit here and there to make the alternate stats fit for everyone - having Rhino faster than 1.1 with Vanguard feels wrong. yes, i am talking about the extra 0.025. (edit: could be OCD kicking in though)

 

Everyone has their sense of what feels right. Nothing wrong with that.

 

while it should probably happen, i am always pretty hesitant to do the normal 'add a zero to everything else' general answer to anything being 'better' than other things. 

as if we added zeroes until all Melee's were comparable to Ichor or Galatine, or all guns comparable to Soma or Synapse, all we'd have done was make the game even blazingly easier than it is to start with.

and then we'd end up adding zeroes to the enemies, and we'd probably end up back where we started. this is a common loop for Warframe. it's happened many times.

 

I would be careful in my increases to other things...The ideal balance between challenge and capability has to be reached.

Its just that in several cases something needs to be done.

In the issue of the helmet stats (or whatever stat object they get turned into when disconnected from helmets)...

I have some that just don't have enough of a meaningful effect to serve a purpose.

The biggest thing that drives me nuts is how so many powers don't scale well. That really needs to get adjusted.

[WARLOCKE]

I support this completely. As much as I enjoy being saved by a speedy Rhino, the helmet needs a nerf. 25% speed boost is crazy for a tank! Rhino is like .9 speed, and 25% bonus makes it 1.125, which I believe is 4th place in speed behind Loki, Nova, and Ash. 10% okay, but 25%?!?! Pls nerf it, DE. I am crying as I am writing this.

 Except, Rhino is not a tank.

 

Also, Rhino is fine. Stop playing on Sedna then you would know that.

Edited January 1, 2014 by WARLOCKE

[WARLOCKE]

certainly valid points. (Rhino was never good for Defense though, lol, he's not a Defensive frame). 

 

and while i'd totally go for changing things around a bit here and there to make the alternate stats fit for everyone - having Rhino faster than 1.1 with Vanguard feels wrong. yes, i am talking about the extra 0.025. (edit: could be OCD kicking in though)

 

while it should probably happen, i am always pretty hesitant to do the normal 'add a zero to everything else' general answer to anything being 'better' than other things. 

as if we added zeroes until all Melee's were comparable to Ichor or Galatine, or all guns comparable to Soma or Synapse, all we'd have done was make the game even blazingly easier than it is to start with.

and then we'd end up adding zeroes to the enemies, and we'd probably end up back where we started. this is a common loop for Warframe. it's happened many times.

 

they're only lies if you're only capable of moving efficiently by having powers do it for you. or moving efficiently period. 

 

offensive response in, offensive response out.

 

You are going to sit here and tell us that Rhino is faster than Loki? I sure hope you arnt.

Edited January 1, 2014 by WARLOCKE

[WARLOCKE]

umm you do know the loki is supposed to be faster?  frames that are tanky like rhino should be slow.

 

And once more, no he is not tanky. Nothing is except Valkyr and Frost vs Ranged Damage.

[Makya]

That speed buff should be dropped at total of 1.0 when using rush mod [Maxed] too.

Assuming base 0.9, with a maxed rush mod his rush speed is now 1.17.. You want to slow down the base Rhino speed to.. below 0.8? Why?

 

League of Legends. Basically all tanks in there are somewhat slow but there is exceptions and builds to make them fast but mostly they are slow.

Olaf is a rather fast unit, one of the fastest units un the game actually.. he is a tank barbarian. Kinda like Rhino.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Makya

[Cwierz]

How about instead of nerfing one helmet we buff the rest to match. I mean these helmets are relatively hard to acquire through non-paying means, let's make them worth the trouble.

Or how about we stop introducing questionable content that causes these debates and us to subsequently raise our power to even more unmanageable highs.

And once more, no he is not tanky. Nothing is except Valkyr and Frost vs Ranged Damage.

Iron skin says hello. He is tanky in relation to the rest of the frames, just quit dude.

 Except, Rhino is not a tank.

 

Also, Rhino is fine. Stop playing on Sedna then you would know that.

No, he is not. He is the only frame allowed to have no weakness. He can do everything in the game, usually better then the real deal in some form, or many forms.

He is the only frame allowed to be exempt from enemy CC as well, and has the highest health and shield totals, with the third highest armor rating. With vanguard he has the tied for third highest run speed, and almost everybody considers him to have the best skillset in the game.

He isn't fine, and trying to say he is would be like me trying to say that volt really is a viable alternative to gunplay. It just doesn't work.

[taiiat]

You are going to sit here and tell us that Rhino is faster than Loki? I sure hope you arnt.

you've quoted the wrong person, by the by.

unless you insist that is directed towards me.

 

every Warframe is very fast when you're exploiting Spindashes. there, i said it extremely plainly without explanation.

Or how about we stop introducing questionable content that causes these debates and us to subsequently raise our power to even more unmanageable highs.

one can only hope. and continue hoping to avoid doing that over and over i'll do, but it seems to be a pointless hope.

Edited January 1, 2014 by taiiat

[WARLOCKE]

Or how about we stop introducing questionable content that causes these debates and us to subsequently raise our power to even more unmanageable highs.

Iron skin says hello. He is tanky in relation to the rest of the frames, just quit dude.

No, he is not. He is the only frame allowed to have no weakness. He can do everything in the game, usually better then the real deal in some form, or many forms.

He is the only frame allowed to be exempt from enemy CC as well, and has the highest health and shield totals, with the third highest armor rating. With vanguard he has the tied for third highest run speed, and almost everybody considers him to have the best skillset in the game.

He isn't fine, and trying to say he is would be like me trying to say that volt really is a viable alternative to gunplay. It just doesn't work.

 

 

Stop playing on Sedna. Iron Skin is worthless in real content. But you would know that if.......wait for it.......you would stop playing with 3 other players on Sedna. Your post is so full of wrong it would take me a while to go through it all. Ill just leave you with this.

 

He is not the only frame immune to CC. (Valkyrie or whatever thaqt riot girl frame is named is immune to both CC AND damage.)

 

He does not have the Highest Shield total. ( Frost ties with him.)

 

He does not have the highest health total. ( i think thats my boy Ash.and many other frames have higher health.)

 

He does not have the highest armor rating. ( Frost with his Alt helm has more, and is equal without.)

 

So if you are wrong about all of this, and you are. Why should anyone read anything further you have to say on the subject.

You like many other nerf callers are fueled by hysterics and "edited" 

 

 

So, just quit dude.

Edited January 1, 2014 by WARLOCKE

[WARLOCKE]

Or how about we stop introducing questionable content that causes these debates and us to subsequently raise our power to even more unmanageable highs.

Iron skin says hello. He is tanky in relation to the rest of the frames, just quit dude.

No, he is not. He is the only frame allowed to have no weakness. He can do everything in the game, usually better then the real deal in some form, or many forms.

He is the only frame allowed to be exempt from enemy CC as well, and has the highest health and shield totals, with the third highest armor rating. With vanguard he has the tied for third highest run speed, and almost everybody considers him to have the best skillset in the game.

He isn't fine, and trying to say he is would be like me trying to say that volt really is a viable alternative to gunplay. It just doesn't work.

 

you've quoted the wrong person, by the by.

unless you insist that is directed towards me.

 

every Warframe is very fast when you're exploiting Spindashes. there, i said it extremely plainly without explanation.

one can only hope. and continue hoping to avoid doing that over and over i'll do, but it seems to be a pointless hope.

 

thats to anyone who says Loki is slower than Rhino.

[Cwierz]

Stop playing on Sedna. Iron Skin is worthless in real content. But you would know that if.......wait for it.......you would stop playing with 3 other players on Sedna. Your post is so full of wrong it would take me a while to go through it all. Ill just leave you with this.

this post is so pretentious. With a blessing up rhino has unlimited iron skin.  My post wasn't wrong, your just in denial of the blatantly obvious.

 

He is not the only frame immune to CC. (Valkyrie or whatever thaqt riot girl frame is named is immune to both CC AND damage.)

she isn't immune, she is pushed back but isn't stunned, as in if a shockwave moa hits you, you will slide back a meter or two without being stunned or anything. Rhino is actually immune because nothing happens to him at all.

 

He does not have the Highest Shield total. ( Frost ties with him.)

I said highest health armor and shield total. For what it is worth, I did mess up on the writing so excuse that bit.

He does not have the highest health total. ( i think thats my boy Ash.and many other frames have higher health.)

Above^ ,Actually Sayrn and Ash are tied, and oberon has a bit higher. Thats three, not many others.

 

He does not have the highest armor rating. ( Frost with his Alt helm has more, and is equal without.)

Read under shields

 

So if you are wrong about all of this, and you are. Why should anyone read anything further you have to say on the subject.

You like many other nerf callers are fueled by hysterics and "edited" 

Obviously not. He has the highest health-shield armor total. If you deny this you are literally doing the equivalent of yelling at a brick wall.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Warframes_Comparison<- read it.

 

Another thing for you to note. There is nothing. Absolutely nothing. wrong with nerfing, (hell I call nerfs for things I own all the time like my nova and my soma most prominently). It is a part of game design and balancing. Game balance is inherently good, whether you think so or not, and it isn't up for debate.

 

So, just quit dude.

Also, I know loki is faster than rhino, that other guy is dumb. Rhino with vanguard is the same speed as Ash.

However, there is no excuse for rhino to not have a single weakness, while having some of the best strengths available.

 

His only weakness used to be his slow run speed, and for good reason. You have to balance out the positives with negatives sometimes, you need to cherish weakness as a balancing tool, so his one weakness shouldn't be flipped to a strength just because you equipped a helmet of all things. If DE were actually serious, they would flat out remove the stats from warframe helms, and refund all plat that was used to pay for them, along with the resources for all of them that were crafted.

 

 

Now how about you justify that 

1.) He is allowed to have

a.) The best bulk of the frames in the game

b.) The best skillset of the frames (CC immunity, Statis+damage, a universal damage amp, and a slash dash clone)

c.) A helmet that makes him tied for third highest speed

 

2.) without any weaknesses

 

3.) and a lack of challenge to use.

Replies in body.

[taiiat]

c.) A helmet that makes him tied for third highest speed

i feel the need to use Mathematics (okay i always do, so that means i'm feeling normal).

 

anyways, Rhino is 1.125 with Vanguard, whilst Ash is 1.1. so he is actually third, even if my a super miniscule irrelevant amount.

though i guess for all intensive purposes we can call that tied for third. though Rhino would still win in a 'drag race'.

[Inez]

If the speed of the helm bothers you, you could . . . I don't know . . . maybe . . . not use it?

You never explained how it hurts you that other people get to use Vanguard helm.

Inb4 "that's what I said in original post."

[XDeathCoreX]

Why are there even slow Ninjas to begin with? That concept is just foolish. No ninja is slow nor should be slow, yet all caster frames are slow as well as a few other frames. So they should simply buff all the slow frames speed especially Valkyr and Excalibur. No more slow frames, movement is important and stamina recovery should be back to normal. movement should be fun.

 

All ninjas should be fast especially the tanks. Even warframe should break away from the slow tank tradition.

 

So say no to slow ninjas or else these are not ninjas, just agile spartans.

 

Then you can buff the helmet speed.

 

That is all.

[Dalewyn]

If the speed of the helm bothers you, you could . . . I don't know . . . maybe . . . not use it?

You never explained how it hurts you that other people get to use Vanguard helm.

Inb4 "that's what I said in original post."

You're clearly a troll, but whatever I'll take the bait just for the lulz.

 

Yes, I never explained how "it hurts you (me) that other people get to use Vanguard helm".

I also never even said anything about others' use of Vanguard reducing my enjoyment.

 

Since you have no reading comprehension, here's what I said in the OP:

As a user of Rhino and having recently acquired the Vanguard Rhino Helmet,

...

This ridiculous movement speed buff from Vanguard has effectively made all my other less tanky "mobile" frames completely pointless besides the novelty.

To reiterate, I recently acquired the Vanguard Rhino Helm, and that thing has made me not enjoy my Excalibur and Valkyr (among others) except for their novelty because I clearly understand that I am not as efficient or as effective as a Vanguard Rhino.

 

To repeat in part what Cwierz has already argued, Rhino is the bulkiest of the warframes, he is completely immune to CC with Iron Skin, he has a Slash Dash clone with Rhino Charge, he has CC (also universally effective against bosses) and AoE damage with Rhino Stomp, and a party damage buff with Roar. Coupled with the Vanguard helm, Rhino is also purportedly tied for 3rd fastest warframe while recieving only a piddly -5% power strength that is hardly noticable; this means Rhino outruns at least 13 warframes as of writing (and he's not supposed to be a speedster) while also having the strongest possible kit that a tank/bruiser warframe could ever want.

 

All the warframes with the exception of Vanguard Rhino have clear tradeoffs to balance their powers.

* Excalibur: Well-balanced offense and mobility, but is consequently a jack of all trades and a master of none. Also only has average defenses since he's oriented towards DPS.

* Valkyr: All-in diving warframe with unparalleled armor and on-demand invulnerability, but has non-existant shields as a tradeoff.

* Frost/Saryn/Non-Vanguard Rhino (the tanks/bruisers): Has reduced movement speed to counteract their inherent tankiness and staying power.

* Trinity: Unparalleled staying power and sustain, but has almost nothing in the way of offense (her gimmicky 1-2 combo isn't counted here).

* Nyx/Volt/Mag/etc. (the casters): Has incredible AoE CC/clears and power reserves, but are frail and lends themselves more to the "glass cannon" archetype.

* Loki/Ash (the fragile speedsters): Has supreme movement speed and mobility, stealth, as well as chances for immense melee damage with the proper execution, but lacks hard defenses and has their skillset oriented towards trying to avoid as much enemy fire as possible.

 

Vanguard Rhino completely breaks that by not only removing his weakness of slowness but also boosting it above that of most other warframes, while doing nothing to cut down on Rhino's actual strengths accordingly.

 

I am not arguing that Rhino does not need faster movement speed, as in the OP I do hate his slow default movement speed and I do like the idea of getting that movement speed back with a tradeoff. I am arguing that the Vanguard Rhino helm is overall too strong and breaks what Rhino's role is supposed to be, -5% power strength is nothing while the +25% movement speed is massive. Reduce that movement speed bonus to something more reasonable, and/or reduce power strength harder to balance it out, or completely rework the helmet outright; one helmet shouldn't make Rhino the unparalleled ultimate melee tanker/bruiser that can also outrun 13 other warframes and leave them in the dust.

 

Why are there even slow Ninjas to begin with? That concept is just foolish. No ninja is slow nor should be slow, yet all caster frames are slow as well as a few other frames. So they should simply buff all the slow frames speed especially Valkyr and Excalibur. No more slow frames, movement is important and stamina recovery should be back to normal. movement should be fun.

 

All ninjas should be fast especially the tanks. Even warframe should break away from the slow tank tradition.

 

So say no to slow ninjas or else these are not ninjas, just agile spartans.

 

Then you can buff the helmet speed.

 

That is all.

Technically speaking, ninjas are what the west would've called covert ops specialists. Ninjas didn't fight in the open and kept engagements to a bare minimum, they didn't show themselves unless mission circumstances required it, and carried very light equipment and tools. The only warframes we currently have that actually manage to fit the label of "ninja" are Ash and Loki, both of whom are light, stealth-oriented warframes that aim to keep engagements to a minimum.

 

"Space ninjas" sounds cool and all, but as an actual Japanese guy, what we have here is hardly space ninjas. :P

[lautalocos]

Back in closed beta the rhino wasn't a slow runner. Frame speed was more normalized.

When they switched him to being slow it was quite a disappointment for a lot of us.

The Vanguard helmet is a way for us to get back what we had...and we appreciate it a lot.

 

 

FYI Vanguard rhino still wont outrun frames like loki.

As for excaliber and Vlakyr perhaps you should be asking yourself why they have the speed they have and whether it is right for them.

 

Also, who ever said that rhino was supposed to be slow? That isn't in his description anywhere.

well, by the fact that he has the most health/shields/second in armor, and because he has iron skin, he is really tanky. but he also has CC with rhino stomp, and buffs with roar.

 

does he really need too to be that fast? he should be the slowest frame.