An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Blatantfool]

Precisely, there is no reason for Vets to get preferential treatment when it comes to design priorities. The work should be put into making things better for the new players, if that does not get more attention then fewer new players will become vets.

 

As I have been here 6 months now and put in over 300 hours I consider myself a vet and I don't agree with the statements being made.

 

 There is no reason there can't be a thread talking specifically about Vets - just like it is no problem to have a thread talking specifically about New blood.

 

 As for how you feel - what you would like from DE - share it man. Can't hurt.

[Blatantfool]

hmm but how far through a thread will DE read?

Or if they've already read the first 5 pages will they read the other five when you've merged the two threads?

 

While having multiples of threads just fill up the board it shows that there is more then half a dozen people interested and concerned in a particular problem. Does that not warrant the thread its own place on the board?

 

 

 They don't miss as much as people tend to think. They manage to get through quite a bit of feedback most days.

 

 It is made easier when lots of related feedback is in a few threads covering the topic.

 

 Better two have one or two massive threads then dozens of small ones on the same topic.

[S5alad]

 They don't miss as much as people tend to think. They manage to get through quite a bit of feedback most days.

 

 It is made easier when lots of related feedback is in a few threads covering the topic.

 

 Better two have one or two massive threads then dozens of small ones on the same topic.

You're claiming they would have been small.   Give me back my thread and see if it's, "small."

[lucio1019]

I think it will be a better idea to collect all the letter links to a "pinned" post instead of marginning them.

I understand it takes a lot of work, effect and time to go through the form. And some players' feedback as "totally rework the whole system" is nothing but pointless.

But there are some good posts and feedback there.

We need your help to make sure our vauled consern reaches DE.

 

Thank you. 

[Blatantfool]

You're claiming they would have been small.   Give me back my thread and see if it's, "small."

 

 Giggity.

 

  Jokes aside, the merge Letter made was perfectly normal. Hence my backing him up. He didn't do anything we haven't been told we should be doing. Hence me telling you if you don't like it just shoot DERebecca a PM. 

 

 One or two very large threads full of feedback is better then a whole lot of them.

[-CK-]

 

I agree with collstro posts 100%. 

 

 

 

It's rly depressing sometimes. I rly have a feeling when you are getting 700h+ you are in the category "players who doesnt matter". 

 

 

Collstro and myself have started within ~2 weeks of each other. Also have been friends through just about everything. Most things we have similar opinions about, and also conflicting interests, but the one thing we always settle on and agree to be true is the lack of incentive to keep things interesting for the dedicated players. Including the implementation of mastery rank rewards, i honestly dont remember how many/since its first appearance in the QA discussion. Maybe since dev diaries ( i could be wrong ). Also hitting the max mastery pretty much soon as the new content is released, no kidding were gonna grind it quick, doesn't really give us that much to do. As members of the same clan we organize our event teams and together stick with the same mindset of winning out of the sheer fact of dedication and organization. With the lack of information about the events its hard to manage that and wastes time trying to figure everything out, imo it should be at the very least be hinted at during the "hype up" period where lotus "intercepts" the transmissions, essentially making the possibility of placing below #1 a reality, as our competitors are as/more/slightly less in the run for 1st. The only thing i dont 100% agree on is the fact the game is still in beta and we should have more information about things. My suggestion is to keep the rate at what we learn about the game at its current pace as i believe were testing pretty well with the sheer fact that learning how everything works provides enough information for de to make calculated decisions (as they know how many levels, factions, skills used, frames used, time per mission ) if we require more information about things it could hinder that previous mentioned information into just a lump of coal.

 

dunno where to go from here so ill just leave it at that either take it as it is or see thru it dosent matter to me

 

-CK-

[Luminati07]

 It looks very much like you're trying to argue for no reason, but to satisfy something internally.  

It's Mak_Gohae. Did you really expect different?

[TheDoctah]

I've personally given up on this game. (at least for a good strong while) cause I don't feel the company creating this game is quite up to snuff atm to make something really happen for this game. I uninstalled because of  the very points the op mentioned. There is no end game, sitting around for hours so enemies can slowly become powerful is not end game. This game has zero end game. I stopped trusting DE's words long ago, they'll tell you some stuff that they know players want to hear but nothing comes of it. Posts like the op's though, makes me hope that this gets through to DE so they can stop bsing and get some stuff handled in this game. There isn't much lore. I can usually find myself playing a game longer, even if it's grind heavy, if the game has a story. This game doesn't have much of a story. So you're left with your homies Mr. Grind and Mr. Rng. I'm sure they'll both be more than happy to check you in at the "end game" ticket gate. 

[goodpoltergeist]

 

Why should they care more about veterans than new players?

 

Well, at the moment, the new player experience is about as S#&$ty and obfuscated as the veteran player experience.  I'm not saying new player's should be spoonfed, but the game doesn't have an objective or goal for new players to strive for, it weakly explains combat and dumps them onto the starmap.  Crucial elements like mods, polarities, potatoes, fusion, transmutation, forma, the codex, etc. are completely unexplained.  Aside from the fact that the RNG is terrible, the drop tables are purposely obfuscated from dataminers, and thus, the community, all of this leads to a clueless new player experience.  How does this tie into the woes of veteran players?  Well, if you give an endgame goal to veteran players, that then gives a goal to newer players, the veteran players have their challenge, and the new players have something to strive for: to get themselves ready for that challenge.  That gives them a goal, the rest of the problems the new players face can then be addressed by understanding the steps they need to take to reach that goal.

 

 

 Warframe is about collecting more and more shinies that can pretty much all be used in all missions.

This is a stupid model for any game.  When loot is the sole thing the game has to offer you, then the game has nothing to offer you.

[--collstro--]

This was in response to Swagger's post, which was integrated into Lynches's post.

 

Pretty well put out. I'm not a veteran (as I've stated before) nor am I a founder, but I understand the passion all players have for this game. I joined this game in May of last year and fell in love with it for the same reasons you mentioned. I tried my very best to get friends and family involved in this game to ensure that the game grows and everyone with a computer gets to enjoy it. 

 

I still believe that the developers care for their playerbase, I really honestly do believe that. But there's always some form of hesitation to listen to or even acknowledge the community's feedback. Founders might very well be the minority in the game, but they are a major reason for this game's success and that fact alone means that they should be acknowledged alongside regular players.

 

We all wish to see this game flourish, and become the greatest F2P game ever made, and it all starts with slowing things down, and looking back to our roots. The community has matured, and has grown substantially, and along with that, so have the responsibilities of the developers. 

 

I simply ask that they look past all the pressure put on them by the playerbase, and take things step by step, prioritizing on dealing with long withstanding game mechanics (which are being worked on at the moment, and I'm glad for that) instead of trying to add to a broken foundation.

 

A simple image would be Jenga blocks. You won't be able to win, if you don't place your foundation blocks correctly.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Sorry to break the news to you in such a public way, but if you've been playing since May and are Mastery 12, you are  a veteran player. Sorry, we don't have a secret handshake......yet. ;)

[bejuizb]

Sorry to break the news to you in such a public way, but if you've been playing since May and are Mastery 12, you are  a veteran player. Sorry, we don't have a secret handshake......yet. ;)

That's news to me to be honest. I've barely scratched the surface, but it's good to know. And yes, the handshake will be soon :P

[MercuryDoll]

This game is currently becoming a trainwreck. DE is too busy adding more and more guns and holding boring events with ridiculous scoring systems that they lost focus of what they wanted their game to become: ninjas in space.

 

What did DE promise us back in April? Fast paced parkour action with stylish moves and a variety of missions to do. Then they went ahead building and told us they were working on things like Stealth, AI, better melee combat, more fluent and indepth parkour and ninja-maneuver. They introduced Dojos and hinted at them being important for more than just factiontech research.

 

What do we have today? A generic railway shooter, melee is currently worthless as you are too busy to shoot things. wallrunning is still a clunky mess and mostly useless because most tilesets are just corridors. We still do nothing more than run from point A to point B or stay at point Z, always mindlessly spraying bullets at people. stealth is still non-existant, the AI still acts like a zombie. Dojos are nothing but a trading post, DE could just have made it an UI instead.

 

The bosses that they wanted to be cinematic, tactical and skill-based aren't better. They may look unique now, but it will take years before they evolve from placeholder bulletsponges.

And don't even ask me about "lore", my 9 year old cousin writes better fanfiction than the completely paradoxical mess we currently have.

 

The problem about DE is, they may know how to build an engine for games, they know a bit about designing stuff like weapons.

But they know absolutely nothing about how a videogame has to be. They know nothing about what their userbase wants. They ask repeatedly but they never listen. They say they do but they don't. They say they couldn't but they just wouldn't. This is depressing.

[nightrunner_ks]

What is funny is that the goats show that they do listen, people have been asking for more wildlife for a while.

 

No. The children who play Warframe have been asking for superfluous stuff like wildlife and syandanas.

 

Everyone else wanted just a fun to play game, with bells and whistles being added once the gameplay was up to scratch

 

The game is pretty rotten at the core. Everything except for the overhauls, like Damage 2.0 and Melee 2.0, is just polishing the outside.

 

Damage 2.0 has its merits, Melee 2.0 has a lot to live up to. 

Edited January 12, 2014 by nightrunner_ks

[--collstro--]

Precisely, there is no reason for Vets to get preferential treatment when it comes to design priorities. The work should be put into making things better for the new players, if that does not get more attention then fewer new players will become vets.

 

As I have been here 6 months now and put in over 300 hours I consider myself a vet and I don't agree with the statements being made.

 

Once again, I'm not speaking on behalf of all veterans, but to the last, none of us want preferential treatment. I assure you I certainly don't. We all know that without the constant introduction of new players to the game the player base will wither away until there's no one left. This is not what we want, or what we seek to achieve with our letters.

 

We feel that there has been no content added to the game geared toward veteran players whatsoever. Whether intended or not, Damage 2.0 did nothing to enhance the veteran's experience with the game. Instead it made the MK-1 Braton viable on Pluto and, like BuriBuri said, it changed Defense and Survival into mere endurance tests that usually only end because of , lag, frame rate loss or DC's. This, among many other additions and changes have been solely focused on the new or mid-term players.

 

And if our suggestions sound selfish and self-serving to the newer players, then think of it this way. If you continue to play this game long enough to consider yourself a veteran, then wouldn't it be nice if there was some end-game content waiting for you when you got there?

[--collstro--]

This game is currently becoming a trainwreck. DE is too busy adding more and more guns and holding boring events with ridiculous scoring systems that they lost focus of what they wanted their game to become: ninjas in space.

 

What did DE promise us back in April? Fast paced parkour action with stylish moves and a variety of missions to do. Then they went ahead building and told us they were working on things like Stealth, AI, better melee combat, more fluent and indepth parkour and ninja-maneuver. They introduced Dojos and hinted at them being important for more than just factiontech research.

 

What do we have today? A generic railway shooter, melee is currently worthless as you are too busy to shoot things. wallrunning is still a clunky mess and mostly useless because most tilesets are just corridors. We still do nothing more than run from point A to point B or stay at point Z, always mindlessly spraying bullets at people. stealth is still non-existant, the AI still acts like a zombie. Dojos are nothing but a trading post, DE could just have made it an UI instead.

 

The bosses that they wanted to be cinematic, tactical and skill-based aren't better. They may look unique now, but it will take years before they evolve from placeholder bulletsponges.

And don't even ask me about "lore", my 9 year old cousin writes better fanfiction than the completely paradoxical mess we currently have.

 

The problem about DE is, they may know how to build an engine for games, they know a bit about designing stuff like weapons.

But they know absolutely nothing about how a videogame has to be. They know nothing about what their userbase wants. They ask repeatedly but they never listen. They say they do but they don't. They say they couldn't but they just wouldn't. This is depressing.

 

Strong words, but I can't say I disagree with any of them. Well said sir.

[nightrunner_ks]

Precisely, there is no reason for Vets to get preferential treatment when it comes to design priorities. The work should be put into making things better for the new players, if that does not get more attention then fewer new players will become vets.

 

As I have been here 6 months now and put in over 300 hours I consider myself a vet and I don't agree with the statements being made.

 

This is the kind of attitude which kills games, do you realise?

 

Do you understand anything about player retention? 

 

What happens when the newbies become vets? What happens when the newbies realise that there's no end game? They leave, tell their friends that Warframe sucks, and DE loses money?

 

But if the end game is good, what happens? People play it. They buy Platinum. 

 

Its short sighted to think that the game needs to be designed for newbies. Adding content isn't gameplay. RNG and grind isn't gameplay. The core gameplay needs to be fun.

 

I agree with MercuryDoll. DE have lost sight of their vision. Sentinels? Are they really necessary for Space Ninja Action? Wildlife? Grind events?

 

DE just needs to focus on three things right now. Anything else is a waste of their time until these three things are up to the same quality of the art direction, for example, which is very good.

 

1. Stealth/Movement

2. Shooting

3. Melee 

 

That's it. If DE can get these three things right soon, then the game is set for the rest of its lifetime.

 

Stealth is broken. Shooting is okay, but needs some more jazz. It needs to be a bit more exciting. In the trailers we see Loki shooting his Akboltos in two directions like a Cowboy, why can't we do that? Why don't we replace looking down the sights of Dual pistols with shooting in two directions? And of course, Melee 2.0 is coming soon. 

 

We can only hope that they fix melee.

[Silvershadow66]

No. The children who play Warframe have been asking for superfluous stuff like wildlife and syandanas.

 

And they are just as much part of the community as you are.

[Silvershadow66]

 

Do you understand anything about player retention? 

 

Enough to realise that what people like to say about what is needed for player retention is often wrong in today's market.

 

The majority of the current market place want easy, they want shinies, they want support for casual play. They don't want difficult "end-game" they just want to have fun and successful games cater to that.

[Blatantfool]

Enough to realise that what people like to say about what is needed for player retention is often wrong in today's market.

 

The majority of the current market place want easy, they want shinies, they want support for casual play. They don't want difficult "end-game" they just want to have fun and successful games cater to that.

 

 I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't give the tiniest fraction of a f*** about that.

 

 I'd just like Warframe do shoot for the whole package. Get both early AND endgame right. There is no good enough excuse not to, in my opinion. Present options for people who want both a casual AND a hardcore experience and you're playing a winning hand in regards to endgame.

[Silvershadow66]

 

 As for how you feel - what you would like from DE - share it man. Can't hurt.

 

Improvements to melee (which we know is coming).

Improvements to new player experience.

New tile-sets to differentiate the planets better and some new mission types.

A tighter set of drop tables for the void and derelicts that consolidates the drops to 1 Tier & mission for each BP.

Tiered derelicts to give high level infested back on a permanent basis and for more space for BPs.

More frames and weapons.

More lore.

[Ishki88]

+1

 

I'm a Mastery Rank 9 right now.  Mind you, I haven't took my Mastery Rank test in over 5 months.  Why?  Because I honestly don't see a reason to.

 

Plus my favorite number is 9 :)

 

I'm probably MRank 13 right about now xD

[Luminati07]

Mastery Rank

 

This is probably my biggest concern. I am max level in Warframe at the moment. However, we did some research and found Mastery 15 is only 25% of the way to Mastery 30 (Max level as described through achievements system). This is absolutely obscene. There are already a hundred or more weapon in Warframe, that alone took me hours on hours to complete leveling. On top of Forma of the best gear at times they prevailed.

 

Now, based on the reskinned updates that are being pushed out (3 new weapons, 1 Warframe, new boss, and new tiles, then 2 or 3 Tenno reinforcements through the updates) it will take DE approximately 3 to 4 years based on their business/model plan to push enough Mastery rank effected gear to reach Mastery 30. This is ridiculous.

 

On top of this, based on the sheer priorities DE seems to state, I can't imagine this game will last 4 years without exceptional PvP or exceptional End-game PvE. I would like to see both of these myself (especially PvP). However, unless Mastery XP is gained in a new way. We will be forced to level about 500 weapons, and 100 Warframes before we reach Mastery 30.

 

This needs to be looked at, changed, and communicated. Cause from my perspective, I can't say i'm down for this long of a prolonged grind.

 

P.S. The Mastery Levels of arsenal gear is still not set up to a way it would represent progression. Everything is either Level 0 (Pretty much everything) or Mastery 7-9 (Clan Tech, which isn't even that great.)

Mastery rank desperately needs to be overhauled.

 

Releasing reskins with stat differences can only go so far (It's already vastly outstayed its welcome)

 

This is one of those things that is, sadly, going to take a backseat, and I don't see it being sorted for a very long time.

[Silvershadow66]

 I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't give the tiniest fraction of a f*** about that.

 

 I'd just like Warframe do shoot for the whole package. Get both early AND endgame right. There is no good enough excuse not to, in my opinion. Present options for people who want both a casual AND a hardcore experience and you're playing a winning hand in regards to endgame.

 

But for a developer with limited resources choices have to be made, basic business says you cater more to the mass market than the smaller one if you want to maintain and increase revenue when it comes to a F2P game (because you don't have to option of a pricier product aimed specifically at that smaller demographic).

[shinydunsparce]

People who have already played 1000+ hours and have everything and are max rank aren't really DE's focus right now, sorry. They have much bigger issues with new player experience and initial player retention than they do keeping people who have done literally everything. 

[--collstro--]

 I'm perfectly willing to admit I don't give the tiniest fraction of a f*** about that.

 

 I'd just like Warframe do shoot for the whole package. Get both early AND endgame right. There is no good enough excuse not to, in my opinion. Present options for people who want both a casual AND a hardcore experience and you're playing a winning hand in regards to endgame.

 

This is what our letters are trying to convey. We (the veteran community,) feel that DE has done nothing to address the concerns we've expressed repeatedly to them via many avenues. This in no way means we think early and mid-game experience isn't equally important.

 

Many of the issues that were addressed in this thread and my own, ( https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans/ ) do not solely apply to veteran players. Issues like grind, lore, and communication affects us all.