An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[matto]

As for the rest, drop table scandal, past game breaking bugs, etc etc. Very little of what you said is relevant to the game as we play it today. And that's all that matters. I don't get why you need to know about all the shenanigans that have taken place over the drop tables and data mining and whatever else that happened months ago to have your feedback, here, today, January 16 2014, be relevant.

 

It is relevant as it is part of the bigger picture. Not for the current game experience though, but it is much more about Digital Extremes' policy, the devs, livestreams etc. This is all game-related.

Edited January 16, 2014 by matto

[f3llyn]

It is relevant as it is part of the bigger picture. Not for the current game experience though, but it is much more about Digital Extremes' policy, the devs, livestreams etc. This is all game-related.

 

So what's the bigger picture as you see it? I'm really curious to know because not a single person has mentioned anything about a bigger picture up to this point.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[matto]

I should have said "a bigger picture" and not "the".

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/page-26

 

Second post is mine. And you couldn't understand this feeling if you've been watching just a couple of livestreams for example.

 

Add this to this Open Letter and some points about communication (again, something you could understand only having at least 5-6 months playing this game and taking part in this forum).

 

But anyone who lately experienced all the changes since U10, with an interest for this forum and the devs, can understand what we are all talking about.

Edited January 16, 2014 by matto

[VegetableBasket]

Are you implying game play changes drastically from tile set to tile set? Or from weapon to weapon? Frame to frame? Because it doesn't change all that much and you know it.

As for the rest, drop table scandal, past game breaking bugs, etc etc. Very little of what you said is relevant to the game as we play it today. And that's all that matters. I don't get why you need to know about all the shenanigans that have taken place over the drop tables and data mining and whatever else that happened months ago to have your feedback, here, today, January 16 2014, be relevant.

The gameplay itself doesn't necessarily change a lot (but you have to admit, corrupted mods change the way you use your frames, and OP weapons frames and mods allow you to steamroll all content which is actually quite hard on a new account without mods like serration or redirection), but the way you spend your time, your enthusiasm, your experience, that does change over time. This isn't about just gameplay, it's about new user experience, endgame, communication, and the rest of the big issues.

As a perfect example of how the past issues affect today, many people are beginning to post about how transmutation is broken, with four unique rare mods yielding commons often. This is due to a removal of ability cards, but because the drop tables were not readjusted for the removal of several items. Whenever you would have gotten an ability, you get a common. This same mistake is what caused voidgate and Sheldon describes this bug in his apology. I only realize what the issue is because I've read about how the drop tables work for end mission rewards, defense, transmuted dozens of times, and realized this issue is very similar to the past mistake made with drop tables. A new player or even a fairly knowledgeable player probably hasn't read enough about these mechanics to realize what the issue actually is there. Of course I could be wrong, it could be working as intended, but changes to drop tables have very rarely worked the first time.

sure any player who has happened to do what I've done and read what I've read could figure that out, but it's a case where seeing history repeat itself is useful. Of course reporting this bug and posting several times about it, and PMing Rebecca has accomplished nothing, though.

Edited January 16, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[f3llyn]

I should have said "a bigger picture" and not "the".

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans-the-megathread/page-26

 

Second post is mine. And you couldn't understand this feeling if you've been watching just a couple of livestreams for example.

 

Add this to this Open Letter and some points about communication (again, something you could understand only having at least 5-6 months playing this game and taking part in this forum).

 

But anyone who lately experienced all the changes since U10, with an interest for this forum and the devs, can understand what we are all talking about.

 

I'm still not sure why that means your voice needs to be heard above others.

 

I don't think you guys understand what you're asking for by setting yourselves apart from everyone else.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[MDRLOz]

Ok I really feel this is weird. This whole label of veteran is misleading like you have achieved something most players have not. The way your naming dropping and event dropping is the same. Making a "I was there! You weren't" approach, and because of this our voices matter and yours don't.

You do not need any of these labels. If you want to make a point call yourself simply long term players and list your name. Nothing else matters. Don't need the rest.

Also the way you make out that there is now three tiers of people. Early mid and vet. What? A person who plays this game for more then month and sees all levels of current content can give a similar overview of the game and it's just as valid as anyone else's.

I really liked these open letters at first but it's subtly taking on a thing of its own. It's time to put them to rest for now and go back to just being one community.

DE has acknowledged these things and that they have good points. Live stream 20 seems to have come as a realisation to them so let's stop these.

No more signing your name and resume. Let's give DE some time again to get stuff done. Let's all go back to asking for nova to be nerfed? That's always a fun game.

[General_Krull]

I'm still not sure why that means your voice needs to be heard above others.

 

I don't think you guys understand what you're asking for by setting yourselves apart from everyone else.

Nobody is saying only veterans voice should be heard, we are only saying that there some things newer players can't have experienced and as such can't have an opinion on those things. Or do you go around telling older people to stop elevating themselves because your experience of world war 2 is just as valid as theirs?

[SpFinX]

As for the rest, drop table scandal, past game breaking bugs, etc etc. Very little of what you said is relevant to the game as we play it today.

Encrypting drop tables is going to be relevant to the game as long as they stay encrypted. Even a year or two or ten years later.

 

What are they hiding there? How are we supposed to test a beta if we don't know what to test?

 

We are supposed to find their mistakes. But when we actually found them, they suddenly removed any way to catch them in future. Lolwut?

 

I don't understand, what they want from us (except for money =P).

 

 

I'm still not sure why that means your voice needs to be heard above others.

 

I don't think you guys understand what you're asking for by setting yourselves apart from everyone else.

Difference is easy. Imagine 100 Void drops in one Void mission. Imagine new update that added new weapon (3 parts) into that mission drops.

 

New player will be getting new items all the time. Building new weapons, training to use them, etc. He will be kept busy and happy with all that shiny new stuff.

 

Veteran already has everything that dropped in that mission before update. Now he is trying to farm a new weapon. 5 missions...20 missions...100 missions...200 missions... at this point one goes to forum to express their unsatisfaction with current RNG.

 

That's the difference.

 

 

All numbers used have nothing common with reality. All names, callnames and activities belong to their rightful owners.©

Edited January 16, 2014 by SpFinX

[VegetableBasket]

Nobody is saying only veterans voice should be heard, we are only saying that there some things newer players can't have experienced and as such can't have an opinion on those things. Or do you go around telling older people to stop elevating themselves because your experience of world war 2 is just as valid as theirs?

Seriously exactly this. I love you.

It's just the same way I can only imagine what it's like for a new player, because I started when the game was simple. I read and ask about new player experience to understand what they do and don't like about the game, but I don't feel qualified to generate those statements because I don't have the perspective they do. A lot of vets open a second account to try and get that back, but even they have a big knowledge advantage that limits their ability to replicate new player experiences. By the same logic newer players can't know what it was like to go through some of the changes older players went through.

It's not about being better or more important, just different and worth listening to.

Edited January 16, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[f3llyn]

Nobody is saying only veterans voice should be heard, we are only saying that there some things newer players can't have experienced and as such can't have an opinion on those things. Or do you go around telling older people to stop elevating themselves because your experience of world war 2 is just as valid as theirs?

 

No, what you guys are saying is that your voice should matter more than others. That's all.

[General_Krull]

No, what you guys are saying is that your voice should matter more than others. That's all.

No we're not, we are saying we have more wider view on the game and on DE as a whole because we have had more experience with both. Nowhere have we said that DE should listen to us over newer players.

[SpFinX]

No, what you guys are saying is that your voice should matter more than others. That's all.

As i posted before, new players just don't experience some problems discussed here because of game mechanics. I'm not talking about value of their opinion, i'm saying they don't have it yet, because they haven't experienced all the gameplay.

Edited January 16, 2014 by SpFinX

[f3llyn]

No we're not, we are saying we have more wider view on the game and on DE as a whole because we have had more experience with both. Nowhere have we said that DE should listen to us over newer players.

 

Except for one of you has in fact said as much..

 

 

 

Founders

 

It was with DE's explicit promise of being sensitive to Founder feedback and gameplay experience that we were lured into dropping hundreds of dollars into Founders Packs, providing the startup funds to bring Warframe from a small beta game to enabling it to hire on extra staff and jumping its funding into the 7 digit figures.  DE said being a Founder would make us part of the team.  DE led us to believe that Founders would be given a higher voice in the community, that we would rank above others when it came to feedback.  We were promised a chance to change the game with merit given to our stance by the value of our investment. 

 

While I do not have the figures to support this, I would say from anecdotal observation, Grand Masters are positively correlated with Rank 14+ Warframe Veterans, individuals with intimate knowledge of the game, of all the frames and weapons and lore of this Technocyte ridden galaxy.  So not only should Grand Masters have merit to their voices by investment, but also by vast knowledge of game play derived from 1000+ hours of time played.  One might feel impressed by such a powerful collective force of knowledge, fandom, and enthusiasm towards the game, so impressed that when the majority of us share the same opinion, that the developers would listen.  Unfortunately, no.  Instead, founders are limited to polls, with a founder exclusive forum, and no differentiation between an uninvested f2p player and a Grand Master $500 or more invested into the game. 

 

 

So does that person speak for all, or no. Do your open letters speak for all, or no? You guys are all supposedly talking to each other about this stuff so I can only assume you all feel this way because you all endorse these posts.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[General_Krull]

Except for one of you has in fact said as much..

 

"Founders" as in people who paid money and were promised a voice in development. Their voice is basically voting for inane things that don't matter. He is only asking for masters and grandmasters get what was promised to them.

[f3llyn]

"Founders" as in people who paid money and were promised a voice in development. Their voice is basically voting for inane things that don't matter. He is only asking for masters and grandmasters get what was promised to them.

 

Did they not get what was promised? I've looked over everything that was promised to GMs and unless I missed something they got everything that was advertised. DE never promised more than that.

 

No, that person specifically said that their voice should hold more merit simply because they spent money.

[VegetableBasket]

No, what you guys are saying is that your voice should matter more than others. That's all.

A large portion of older players are greatly concerned with new player experience and firmly believe new players should be better leveraged for feedback on usability and easing into the game.

Then there are things a new player wouldn't know much about but an older would.

I was talking to Mogamu (15k subs on youtube, makes videos about weapons and game mechanics) about the questions new players ask him, and he brought up a lot of really smart tips for the way the UI could more intuitively educate new players. Some players don't know what they don't know. It takes someone like him who knows a lot but works with people who are trying to get over the learning curve to make these kinds of observations with the scope of the entire game in mind.

Swagger echoes a concern a lot of design coucil members have, that we would be included in something that would determine the future of Warframe (I believe that exact phrase was used but I'm on mobile and can't be bothered to check at the moment).

We don't do that, though. If DE didn't sell the DC the way they did, that argument would be irrelevant and silly. Her point speaks to DE's communication if anything. However the DC and veteran players are not the same group and the issues in these letters is representative of an individual's experiences and not everyone who has played a lot.

Edited January 16, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[MDRLOz]

Right so people who post YouTube comments and deal with new player feedback have another useful view of things. That's fine bit it just as important feedback as a new player and a player who is mastery 6 working through Eris and someone with nothing else to do .

[f3llyn]

A large portion of older players are greatly concerned with new player experience and firmly believe new players should be better leveraged for feedback on usability and easing into the game.

Then there are things a new player wouldn't know much about but an older would.

I was talking to Mogamu (15k subs on youtube, makes videos about weapons and game mechanics) about the questions new players ask him, and he brought up a lot of really smart tips for the way the UI could more intuitively educate new players. Some players don't know what they don't know. It takes someone like him who knows a lot but works with people who are trying to get over the learning curve to make these kinds of observations with the scope of the entire game in mind.

 

That's great. He gives advice to new players and has got an audience of 15k subs. I learned two new things today. Scratch that! I learned three new things today and it's only 6:30 am.

Edited January 16, 2014 by f3llyn

[matto]

I think there is one specific point where new players' opinion is in fact more important than ours, and it's the new player experience. Unfortunately, only a few of them are actually posting in this forum to talk about it.

 

I should start a new account just for this.

[Cemges]

I might not qualify as a veteran in any way but you got our full support.

[Bakercompany86]

As far as how long it takes to have seen everything, I have no idea.

 

But as soon as you complete your first Tier III defense or survival and realize that you're participating in what you'll be doing for the rest of your Tenno career, that's when I realized what this game needed.

 

 

You don't need 100 hours in to realize that.  Pretty sure I hit that point roughly 15 hours in.

[Kyria]

I think you all are doing yourselves a great disservice by pigeonholing yourselves like this. All of these points would be just as valid coming from someone with 50 hours or 300 hours of gameplay. That you were around when there only were x weapons and x frames is - in all cases barring a possible few scenarios - not remotely relevant for your input on anything added to the game since. You are effectively eliminating yourselves from the general playerbase in claiming to be such a specialized minority. Instead of appearing as a group of a select few with a vast pool of knowledge and dedication to the game you could very well be rendering yourselves redundant by illustrating you are not experiencing the game as every other (newer) gamer is and your view will be eternally skewed due to your track-record. As I see it - from reading these letters and posts from self-proclaimed veterans - you are representing a very specific and minute group of players that have essentially beat the game and find themselves gobbling up every tiny, new morsel of gameplay - but you will never be full. You will always be hungry for more and frustration will only increase because you are looking to be sated from a buffet you already ate 10 times over and you now find yourself sick of. You may have a unique view of the game, its history and vast collective knowledge, but you do not appear to represent the general playerbase. For me; the Detron will be obtained sometime during my next 200 hours of gameplay - as I continue to play the game, learn the tricks, get familiar with untested frames, build new weapons, explore the rest of the solar system, learn the math, discover synergies and so on. NAV-coordinates and ingredients will drop, weapon and frame parts will be found, mods will be ranked up, the Harvester will find me - steady as she goes.

 

To me that whole "Vet"-viewpoint just seems to boil down to that you guys have had that much more time to be truly fed up by persistent issues, loose hope and/or close in on burnout.

As for the letters posted: Some got an upvote, some did not. Many points are most pressing and apparant, others I find to be irrelevant. Most of them I agree needs to be address, but I also find I have faith that DE are working on it and I am happy to give them the time to do so. A few points I judge to stem from a lack of imagination of potential solutions. And I trust that the devs will give it the attention it deserves.

[VegetableBasket]

Right so people who post YouTube comments and deal with new player feedback have another useful view of things. That's fine bit it just as important feedback as a new player and a player who is mastery 6 working through Eris and someone with nothing else to do .

I can't tell if you're on the same page as me or missed the first half of the discussion. I'm saying the experiences of the veteran players are unique to those who are in the middle or beginning of the game. Some people were arguing veterans have the same experience as anyone with 10 hours and others were saying veterans are putting themselves on a pedestal. I'm saying everyone is important, including us. We feel a lot of design decisions are catered towards midgame players, but everyone has their own individual gripes and opinions so, as I have stated, I can only speak for a few of us with any confidence. On one front I have to justify why the distinction matters, and on another I have to remind that this group of players is one of several which are all important. One that also feels neglected in some sense.

Edited January 16, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Ced23Ric]

DE isn't exactly know to listen to their community and even less on their founders.. but this thread might still make something happen.

 

What does this thread do the many theads before this one did not? Where was the reaction to KONAir's "Objectively Not A Design Document"? Where was the reaction to TheGreatZamboni's all encompassing mega-thread? Where was the reaction to the concept of Cell Missions? Where was the reaction to many, many threads before and among those? And how does this thread hold something new that has not been said (and ignored) before?

 

In the past, she's been quite excellent about getting requested material to the Devs attention.  We even managed to get her to bring it up on a livestream (a post in the past). I firmly believe she will do the same again.

To what effect? A mere token of recognition is no longer a satisfying response. "We're looking into it." has overstayed it's welcome. The Livestream has a habit of dodging questions, not answering them, let alone act upon the conclusions. I think you are giving in to delusions of blind hope there.

 

As well as General_Krull's quip about Ced and Fool writing all the Lore.

 

What was postponed was never continued, what was offered, was ignored, what was done, went by unrecognized. Instead, Vor's Prize is still the same joke as it was since day one. And people keep applauding.

VegetableBasket rightfully said to me: "Not all of us are as jaded and bitter as you are." and I will not dispute that. Sadly, I wish I didn't also have the proof that I have reasons to feel that way. Because whenever someone who is patient and more generous with DE's lack of responses is exposed to the events as they were, they start to understand. Most just rather believe that what happened were all isolated events, not part of a greater whole that permeates through the process as a whole.

 

Responses are not Rebecca telling people "Thanks for the feedback!" after a heated thread. It's not Megan locking a thread with "You should be pumped your thread got locked, it means we saw it!". Responses certainly do not come from Community Moderators. A response is an update containing a new element based on user feedback. A response would have been to remove "Rescue" as a mission, which received no votes as a fav in DC, instead, Raid was removed, which did receive multiple votes. A response would have been to concentrate on Lore, as one of the three winners of the first DC poll ever, and not adding Consumables, which lost by a wide, wide margin to all other options.

But we got consumables and not lore. And we lost Raid, not Rescue. So that makes the +25 people in DC just as hollow a gesture as "We're looking into it." A Design Council that can vote on preselected answer which are not considered binding by those selecting the possible answers, diluted by the hundreds in there, has neither effect nor value.

And that is the problem I am seeing. The communication goes one way - from DE to the players. And the other direction is shielded off with canned responses and notions to keep people docile enough to distract with a new sidearm or melee weapon. I am bitter and I am jaded. But I have reasons to. Maybe because I have been here since December 2012. Maybe because I have seen it from 1500 players to now. Maybe because I am a tad older and a tad more involved with politics. But before you are jaded and bitter, you are disappointed and sad, and before that, you are confused and unbelieving. That is how we deal with bad discoveries and events, don't we?

 

I am just a little further down the road. I don't want to be here. I want to see Warframe use it's potential. The IP is good and unique enough. It could really go places. But it didn't, and it doesn't, and I don't know if it will. How does pushing out an update because of player number concerns even correlate with "we are making our dream game"? How can you say, on one side, making Warframe is closing your psychic wound, yet on the other, not make sure that the story of your game is there for others to enjoy? Was your game idea really a generic TPS dungeon crawler - or was it Dark Sector, a riveting universe full of conflict, subterfuge, and deadly space ninjas from a time long ago, fighting of enemies known, formerly known and yet unknown?

 

I want to see that game.

This one here is falling short of anyone's dream. The narrative is way too weak. There is, just like in Pariah, no sense to the story, no immersion or cohesion. It's all conjecture, no gems of storytelling.

I could go on for hours.

[VegetableBasket]

I think you all are doing yourselves a great disservice by pigeonholing yourselves like this. All of these points would be just as valid coming from someone with 50 hours or 300 hours of gameplay. That you were around when there only were x weapons and x frames is - in all cases barring a possible few scenarios - not remotely relevant for your input on anything added to the game since. You are effectively eliminating yourselves from the general playerbase in claiming to be such a specialized minority. Instead of appearing as a group of a select few with a vast pool of knowledge and dedication to the game you could very well be rendering yourselves redundant by illustrating you are not experiencing the game as every other (newer) gamer is and your view will be eternally skewed due to your track-record. As I see it - from reading these letters and posts from self-proclaimed veterans - you are representing a very specific and minute group of players that have essentially beat the game and find themselves gobbling up every tiny, new morsel of gameplay - but you will never be full. You will always be hungry for more and frustration will only increase because you are looking to be sated from a buffet you already ate 10 times over and you now find yourself sick of. You may have a unique view of the game, its history and vast collective knowledge, but you do not appear to represent the general playerbase. For me; the Detron will be obtained sometime during my next 200 hours of gameplay - as I continue to play the game, learn the tricks, get familiar with untested frames, build new weapons, explore the rest of the solar system, learn the math, discover synergies and so on. NAV-coordinates and ingredients will drop, weapon and frame parts will be found, mods will be ranked up, the Harvester will find me - steady as she goes.

 

To me that whole "Vet"-viewpoint just seems to boil down to that you guys have had that much more time to be truly fed up by persistent issues, loose hope and/or close in on burnout.

As for the letters posted: Some got an upvote, some did not. Many points are most pressing and apparant, others I find to be irrelevant. Most of them I agree needs to be address, but I also find I have faith that DE are working on it and I am happy to give them the time to do so. A few points I judge to stem from a lack of imagination of potential solutions. And I trust that the devs will give it the attention it deserves.

I don't find your post disagreeable, but how would we properly establish ourselves as a group with vast knowledge without somehow separating ourselves from those who don't have vast knowledge, and being called elitist or whatever else? We have various levels of optimism, burnout, and knowledge, but if you choose to view us the way you do, and see our input as invalid, you're a bit doomed to end up disappointed and burnt out like we are, don't you think?