Why The Penta/ogris Does Not Need An Ammo Nerf...

[Pro3Display]

Nonsense. Weapon stats are in a table, what kind of ammo a weapon uses is controlled by a ID number. If they don't know how to write numbers in a table without causing bugs they have bigger issues.

well i'm not saying it should but there is always a probability...

 

and given that we have so much hot-fixes tells me that atleast typos can occur in their code quite often

Edited January 15, 2014 by Pro3Display

[Dalu__Ka]

Keeping these kind of ammo issues prevents this game from ever being taken seriously.

[HailCreation]

Unless the ammo is dropped to crippling levels, an ammo drop will not make a difference. 

 

Bows/Snipers have the lowest pool of 72. You cannot spam the Ogris fast enough without picking up more sniper ammo.

 

Even then a mutation mod will negate any effects. Enemies are simply killed too fast by either the user or teammates to make ammo an issue. 

 

Let's say the ogris was 5 in chamber and 5 in pool. You use ONE ammo mutation mod you're good. Every enemy drops ammo of some kind. Those amounts are high enough to keep you at full constantly after the mutation. 

 

There's just no point in dropping the ammo because it's a visual bandaid, at best. 

[Replacement]

You've never seen someone camp in one high ground spot in an infested survival and explode everything for 20 minutes before needing to jump down and grab ammo then?

Whether or not it makes a sizable difference isn't a reason to ignore a glaring issue.

Also, ballistica isn't a silent weapon while Ogris is. Tell me how that isn't ridiculous.

[Serialkillerwhale]

Because Ogris is actually comparatively quiet, thanks to not having an explosion happen when you pull the trigger.

[birdei]

also someone correct me if i am wrong, the broncos are shotguns correct? Yet it uses pistol ammo, where the hell is the outrage for that from all you people wanting balance or whatever? Those should use shotgun ammo and since they are seconderies, they should have less ammo than a primary shotgun of 110 ammo. Give them like 75 ammo capacity to be fair.

Ya no one gives a crap about those because those are kinda low tier weapons....

[HailCreation]

You've never seen someone camp in one high ground spot in an infested survival and explode everything for 20 minutes before needing to jump down and grab ammo then?

Whether or not it makes a sizable difference isn't a reason to ignore a glaring issue.

Also, ballistica isn't a silent weapon while Ogris is. Tell me how that isn't ridiculous.

Oh no, you'd have to jump down between waves! 

[LazyKnight]

also someone correct me if i am wrong, the broncos are shotguns correct? Yet it uses pistol ammo, where the hell is the outrage for that from all you people wanting balance or whatever? Those should use shotgun ammo and since they are seconderies, they should have less ammo than a primary shotgun of 110 ammo. Give them like 75 ammo capacity to be fair. Ya no one gives a crap about those because those are kinda low tier weapons....

I wouldn't be opposed to the hand shotguns using shotgun ammo. 

 

Ammo needs a review across the board, it is a neglected core game mechanic that continues to have issues. The only reason people tolerated weapons like Twin Vipers and Grakata ammo starvation before was the nearly free ammo packs that used to be in game.

 

 

Drakgoon is a shotgun, using shotgun mods. It was supposed to use shotgun ammo and ammo capacity too.

A rocket uses rockets, not rifle ammo.

Edited January 15, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Replacement]

Because Ogris is actually comparatively quiet, thanks to not having an explosion happen when you pull the trigger.

 

Can't tell if serious.

 

also someone correct me if i am wrong, the broncos are shotguns correct? Yet it uses pistol ammo, where the hell is the outrage for that from all you people wanting balance or whatever? Those should use shotgun ammo and since they are seconderies, they should have less ammo than a primary shotgun of 110 ammo. Give them like 75 ammo capacity to be fair. Ya no one gives a crap about those because those are kinda low tier weapons....

 

Hyperbole.  Broncos also aren't obnoxious to party with, either.

 

Oh no, you'd have to jump down between waves! 

 

Survivals don't come in waves.

 

---

 

Changing rockets to at least use SR ammo isn't going to break these weapons.  A minor inconvenience won't ruin your fun with these weapons, but it WILL introduce change for the party members that are tired of you spamming the thing all day long.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Replacement

[Nox-Lamina]

 

A rocket uses rockets, not rifle ammo.

Under the assumption that ammo in the context you used it  to mean bullets 

 

Dread, Paris and Cernos use Arrows not sniper ammo.

Flux/Spectra use lasers not rifle ammo.

Synapse  is powered by a bio-chemical reaction. If anything synapse should eat enemies, break them down into their base elements and shoot out electricity, but I digress. Cannot be refilled by rifle ammo

Ignis uses some detonite system which has to be fed by something that isn't rifle ammo.

Dera shoots Plasma not rifle ammo.

Acrid shoots needles not pistol ammo.

Baliistica shoots bolts not pistol ammo.

Cestra shoots bolts of energy not pistol ammo.

Despair, Hikou and Kunai are knives and should not be recharged by pistol ammo.

Supra is a heavy laser gun, why is it powered by rifle ammo?

Embolist shoots acidic venomous gas, not pistol ammo

 

The bullets shot by rifles that use conventional ammo all have a variety of different physical damage characteristics and are therefore not universal so what powers Soma which is mostly slash/puncture, a Boltor which is mostly puncture and the Karak which is mostly impact cannot be the from the same type of ammunition. Same applies to pistols that fire conventional ammo as well

 

Do you understand why this argument falls flat yet, or am I not being clear enough? 

Edited January 15, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[LazyKnight]

Do you understand why this argument falls flat yet, or am I not being clear enough? 

By what logic should Drakgoon have been changed to Shotgun ammo that would not also apply directly to both PENTA and OGRIS. There is no argument where one can be changed and the other can not be. Neither are rifles or are they shotguns, neither have definitive genre supported by existing classes.

 

It was to his repose that a flak cannon should use shotgun ammo and it should be logical, but by warframes logic its just as valid to use rifle ammo, mod use is irrelevant: citation miter, it can't use sniper exclusive mods or bows despite using sniper ammo. Your deliberately trying to defend a generalist view about ammo that means," it doesn't matter a damn, pick at random what a gun should draw on". 

 

Implying I can't understand you is laughable, vain and conceited on your part.

Edited January 15, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Nox-Lamina]

By what logic should Drakgoon have been changed to Shotgun ammo that would not also apply directly to both PENTA and OGRIS. There is no argument where one can be changed and the other can not be. Neither are rifles or are they shotguns, neither have definitive genre supported by existing classes.

 

It was to his repose that a flak cannon should use shotgun ammo and it should be logical, but by warframes logic its just as valid to use rifle ammo, mod use is irrelevant: citation miter, it can't use sniper exclusive mods or bows. Your deliberately trying to defend a generalist view about ammo that means," it doesn't matter a damn, pick at random what a gun should draw on". 

 

Implying I can't understand you is laughable, vain and conceited on your part.

 

By the logic of flak cannons using shells and the drakgoon firing shrapnel and our closest equivalent being shotguns, so it falling under that family makes sense. 

 

Bows and the Miter fall under the sniper family because of their charge mechanic and their firing of single projectiles that have a tendency to puncture if not innate puncture, also the fact that bows, snipers and miter can be used as one shot weapons designed to take down HVTs follows logically. They do not have the luxury of primed/charged chamber however. It is not right but DE is consistent on only snipers having it. The miter and bows do not use sniper mutation, one because of a bug with the miter, and the fact that bows have their own mutation mod.

 

Weapon characteristics tend to decide which ammo pool they draw from. In the case of Penta and Ogris it literally does not matter because these launchers cause enough damage with few enough shots to never run out of ammo even with the sniper pool. If bows and snipers don't easily run out when they draw from this pool, how will launchers? It does not need to  change because it will do nothing, you'll be wasting developer time and effort even if it takes 3 minutes to change. 

 

Now I will grant you a hypothetical. If it does change something making Penta and Ogris have terrible ammo economy, people will just put on a mutation mod and go about their merry way. All that will do is needlessly inconvenience players and we will still work around it, there will still be a player using his Penta/Ogris in an incredibly destructive manner with  a sustainable ammo pool as is now.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Nox-Lamina

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

 

 

Why Drakgoon isn't a shotgun and should be considered a unique class weapon same as Mitter:

 

Drakgoon would fall into the same class as an unique non-genre specific weapon same as Mitter. This is because its charge function and bullet dynamics do not behave like any other shotgun, and the only weapon in game that has similar weapon characteristics is just Mitter.

 

The fact it shots a burst of shrapnel is not why it shouldn't be considered a shotgun, but the fact it has a variable shots ranging from Shotgun's rounds to that of a Sniper's rounds, along with the bouncing rounds. The only other weapon that has variable shot strength are bows(sniper ammo) and Mitter(sniper ammo) and a few secondary weapon, but each and every primary weapon that is a 2-stage firing mechanic that only consumes one rounds is sniper ammo exclusive.

 

Mitter is a rifle as far as mods are cornered, anything that is allowed by generic rifles is allowed on Mitter, this isn't a bug. It's a rifle, but not one with regards to it's ammo pick-up.

 

Why weapons with unique explosive tags should all use sniper ammo(excluding Ignis):

 

The game has unique tags for Ogris and the other explosive weapons and is the reason that mods that deal with AOE range work with them. There is nothing about Ogris that should have it draw for rifle ammo, it doesn't need 20 ammo per pick-up or have 540 base. The only rifles weapons that have comparable single hit power are Vectis and Lanak, Ogris can range from 8x-20x(or higher in some cases) the per hit damage of rifle ammo using weapons.

 

Ogris has a charge mechanic same as Lanka, but not like bows, mitter or Drakgoon that are two stage damage. Its only direct equilvent is Lanka's one stage damage system that can only go off on a full charge. Why should Ogris have 540 ammo when lanka single target damage is the same or lower, yet it's max ammo is 72.

 

Penta is a howitzer, mortar, or grenade launcher(take your pick of what fits), it has the same shot potential as Lanka. Why it needs to be of the rifle ammo using family when it can do 8x-12 the damage of Soma per bullet, is more than questionable.

 

 

Now I will grant you a hypothetical. If it does change something making Penta and Ogris have terrible ammo economy, people will just put on a mutation mod and go about their merry way. All that will do is needlessly inconvenience players and we will still work around it, there will still be a player using his Penta/Ogris in an incredibly destructive manner with  a sustainable ammo pool as is now.

Would it be game breaking to have 72 rounds, nope.

 

Would people stop using an AOE weapon that can kill an entire group simultaneously, nope.

 

Would it force people using Penta, Ogris to stop camping on a ledge for 15+ minutes of sequential firing shots, yeah.

 

Would ammo packs be able to remove the hindrance in the same way a sniper rifle or shotgun user can get around the small cap, yeah.

Edited January 21, 2014 by LazyKnight

[sanj66]

i got a penta, did alot of work on it, and tbh ammo pool is of no consequence, the lowest it went on an odd vs mobs on wave 50 was 478 or so, and i dont have a mutation mod, penta has no down sides besides self suicide and you just need to get accustom to firing it and let your team mates know not to run infront of you as in my experience it does bounce off of them even though there is no friendly fire which sort of contradicts it a bit. i dont see why people see reducing at least penta ammo or lets say making a unique ammo pool for explosive weapons, i never used ogris so not gonna comment on that. the one issue i have though and may seem offtopic, is why people always bring up soma? its not the best weapon in game and its not the most op weapon in game yet it always gets mentioned even though it was already nerfed, the  argument  people make of easy mats, guess what u can get mutagen masses or could have gotten them for free in invasions and make a synapse easy, even easier than soma, which out of the box is better than soma, and "end game" or lets say final build is better than the soma, not to mention you actually need more rare mods for soma, and i seen quite a few people in this thread mention soma in their posts and selectively forgot to mention synapse? as it is synapse should be at the fore if you wish to speak about best or "op". my last point is even with high stats, high ammo pool its how you use your weapon, you can give a newbie a maxed out final build weapon and a vet an unranked or low ranked weapon it doesnt mean the maxed out will win or complete its mission. all in all a change to penta ammo pool wouldnt or shouldnt affect anythhing, it didnt affect drakgoon, and a bit sure it wont affect penta, also if you look at it penta does have a higher chance to actually kill multiple targets instead of a drakgoon.

[NuLycan]

I still fail to see why people believe that virtual infinite ammo isn't a problem. The OP stated that this was useful for people with real life time contraints, as it helps with RNG. At most the ogris is a bandaid fix for RNG, and an unintended bandaid fix at that.

 

While I do somewhat agree with what he says, not all ogris/penta users are using the weapons due to real life time contraints (Id argue that most aren't), they're using them because they're easy to use. Same with a lot of "top tier weapons. RNG is being worked on, and having infinite ammo is game breaking. As long as you don't kill yourself youre fine.

 

And I've also seen so many "people need to stop trying to ruin the fun in warframe" arguments. Really? Do you need an infinite ammo rocket lawnchair to have fun?

Edited January 16, 2014 by NuLycan

[bobafetthotmail]

A rocket uses rockets, not rifle ammo.

I know, the closest equivalent to "specialist" ammo is the Sniper ammo, as bows, the Miter, and sniper rifles of very different kinds use it.

 

 

Btw, agree on drakgoon being moved to the same Sniper ammo pool.

Edited January 16, 2014 by bobafetthotmail

[Hydrium]

Who cares, it's never happening anyways.