Survivability In U7

[Wustuv]

First of all: I know that there are several threads allready open concerning the "lack of shield mods".

Reason I opened a new thread is simply because I think this has to be discussed in a different way.

So far, I'm one of the obviously few people who are fine with the new mod-system.

But there is one MAJOR issue that just has to be worked on, fast:

The survivability.

Here is why I think this way:

Face it, the game is a role-playing game. Each one which has "levels" is. There is a progression in the relative strength of your character as well as the relative strength of your opponents.

With that comes a significant rule of role-playing: "basic" survivability must NEVER be bound to your equipment, even less be "luck dependant", but instead to your char. This is really fundamental.

What I mean with this is not "I want to be able to kill a enemy who is twelveteen levels above me with totally insufficient weapons", but rather "I got a capped char, it can't be that this enemy who has a third the levels (and thus, "combat experience", "body strength", call it whatever you want) can one- or two-shot me.

You got a character. You went on many adventures with this character, so he is experinced in what he does. OK, maybe he has crappy equipment, but nevertheless, if he got to a certain "level" (think of this concept a bit abstract, it could help to understand my point), then it's most likely because he was able to survive and fullfil his duties even with this S#&$ty gear. It may have taken him longer to accomplish his goals, but still he did. And he grew with his challenges.

This is why in most RPGs the "basic" health points of a char scale with his level.

Or otherwise there is as good as no need for a diversification of "combat strength", just make everyone, players and enemies die in two hits alike and the gear determines the difference in ways of accuracy, rate of fire, size of clip, and so on.

Follow me so far? Good, then read on.

I understand DEs decision to remove the old "skill tree" and try something new. But still I think that the survivability of your char should be a representation of his time in the field. Otherwise it is difficult for the players to establish a connection to their alter egos. If the level 30 "Veteran" dies just as quick as the level 1 "Rookie"...

So here's my suggestion. Stay with the new mod system (for now, time will tell how it works out), but implement a system, which scales the survivability, and thus translated to this scenario the shields and/or health, of your char to his level.

There will still be a need for "advanced" survival, therefore shield and health mods, to take down the really huge thugs. But the game is a bit to far away from "realistic" to justify "This level 5 SOB just killed my "Veteran" with a shot in the back!"...

Less CoD, more D20, know what I mean ;-)?

Edited March 21, 2013 by Wustuv

[plznohurtme]

Though this has been suggested in many different places already I've yet to see any official response of any sort, and I assume this is due to PAX East and the upcoming Steam rollout along with the update coming out in general. I most certainly agree with this completely, after having played for several hours post update 7 I cannot in polite language explain how amazingly frustrating it is to have a Kraken that can one shot normal mobs up to high 30s but being stuck with base shields/hp (150/75 mag, 100/150 ash, 75/75 loki... these are the only ones I've played with since patch).

[Splosions]

"basic" survivability must NEVER be bound to your equipment, even less be "luck dependant"

Couldn't have said it better. At lvl 30 I should be "ok" with the HP/Shields/MP I have against mobs at my level. If I chose to further augment my survivability stats with mods afterwards is my choice.

[Testiculitis]

They need to make it so you get shields/health/energy as you rank up your warframe, along side with the new mod system.

[Fadeway]

Newbie here, so not sure how much my two cents are worth. Still, I prefer the fragility that we have now. You're playing a space ninja, and it definitely feels like it - deadly, fast, but..fragile.

Combat is never boring exactly because everything can kill you surprisingly fast, and a stun is pretty much guaranteed demise. It's always been an issue of the RPG genre that as characters increase in survivability, some threats become meaningless to them; our relative fragility solves exactly this issue, yet you seem to be complaining that you don't get to shrug off outleveled enemies? How would that make the game more interesting?

I know that some would disagree about difficulty = fun. It's also very very likely that circumstances in high-level missions are very different and that I have no clue what I'm talking about. Still, I disagree about the sentiment that our characters should be able to outlevel enemies.

Regarding the remark that luck and farming is needed for basic survivability, I think a lesson can be taken from Guild Wars. Instead of having characters start with low hp and high-impact mods, give them medium hp and high-impact mods with drawbacks. For example, have strong damage mods decrease the wielder's survivability - this way, everyone has hp, and people can still opt for the glass cannon build that is possible now if they want to.

[plznohurtme]

Newbie here, so not sure how much my two cents are worth. Still, I prefer the fragility that we have now. You're playing a space ninja, and it definitely feels like it - deadly, fast, but..fragile.

Combat is never boring exactly because everything can kill you surprisingly fast, and a stun is pretty much guaranteed demise. It's always been an issue of the RPG genre that as characters increase in survivability, some threats become meaningless to them; our relative fragility solves exactly this issue, yet you seem to be complaining that you don't get to shrug off outleveled enemies? How would that make the game more interesting?

I know that some would disagree about difficulty = fun. It's also very very likely that circumstances in high-level missions are very different and that I have no clue what I'm talking about. Still, I disagree about the sentiment that our characters should be able to outlevel enemies.

Regarding the remark that luck and farming is needed for basic survivability, I think a lesson can be taken from Guild Wars. Instead of having characters start with low hp and high-impact mods, give them medium hp and high-impact mods with drawbacks. For example, have strong damage mods decrease the wielder's survivability - this way, everyone has hp, and people can still opt for the glass cannon build that is possible now if they want to.

Your point is 100% valid for lower level content, however having done level 30+ content I can truly say that you have to play this game like a cover shooter to the extreme when you have no hp/shields. Even then one misstep will end up with you dead, and this isn't a matter of difficulty this is a matter of not having anything to work with. I don't think that anyone is saying you should get huge shields/hp by just ranking up, but getting 100-150 more of each even would make it *possible* to do the higher level missions consistently. As it stands right now you basically have to get lucky and get hp/shield mods and then you are required to use them to be successful at all.

[Fadeway]

Haha yeah, 100-150 shield at my lower level planets sounds like a crazy buffer.

I really think a system of sidegrades/diagonalgrades works very well if you want a game to be skill- and not farm-based. Having everyone at 200 survivability and 200 damage, with mods that decrease survivability by 20 to increase damage by 40 (and mods that increase survivability by 40 and decrease dmg by 20) works much better and still leaves gear as something that makes you stronger and is desirable, than a system where everyone is at 100/100 and has mods that increase damage or survivability by 60 with no drawbacks.

My point is, unless you're asking for a straight buff, an hp increase is going to cost something. If everyone gets free hp with levels, mob numbers or damage or health is going to be adjusted to balance against that. Probably it's going to come off our own damage. I'd like to preserve the option of playing a glass cannon if I want to.

[Cheridan]

There's no problem with survivability once you get a shield mod. Instead of adding passive level up stats, it'd be much easier to just start players out with a starter kit of mods, including a shield.

[CosyPigeon]

Would like an official deve response to this, half the community is raging about it and they're staying quiet. Which is annoying.

[Mak_Gohae]

Yeah this is big flaw in the system, the rate of survibality is pretty random. If you dont get the right mods you pretty much dont know what you can or cant survive. When i first started playing i was with Loki who has 75/75 so a few hits and im already seeing red, and with all the new players in the game i became mr. reviver because people just kept dying. I was just stay in the back and saved my energy for invis. Got tired afte a while of being all careful, i spent enough time being careful when i was first leveling him, so i just ended up switching to another frame that just had more shields and health.

For new players this is going to be very hard since they have no cushion, they cant experiment to see what they can do because they are just doing to die. I think they should have small stat boosts for shield and health for frame when leveling and that stat boost gained for frames gets taken off the shield and health mod bonus so they dont give as much and it doesnt become OP when upgrading those mods.

[Notso]

I agree with the OP that something is needs to be done about the progression system in terms of survivability. However I do not agree that it should necessarily be done with passive leveling bonuses (although I am not ruling this out as a possibility).

Here is my suggestion:

Every time you level up your 'frame or weapon, you get are rewarded with a mod card. For most levels, this would simply be a fusion core, but every 5 levels, you would be given a choice of three cards to pick from.

For example, upon reaching level 5 with a 'frame [for example], I would be given the choice between a shield mod, a health mod, and then a third mod which is 'frame specific [for example Loki might get to choose a Melee Damage mod, but Rhino might get an armour mod). At level 10, I would be rewarded with a choice of three mod cards again. You get the idea.

This means leveling a 'frame/weapon guarantees your item will increase in power, however it doesn't require the addition of a whole new passive leveling system.

[HadronVictorioso]

How about this, instead: every time you level up your Warframe, you gain a set number of points to put into any part of your Warframe's stats (except stamina, because that is fine as is) - shield capacity, health, or power capacity. This would be easy to balance and put back a lot of interest in the game that was lost when people can't fight high-level enemies anymore.

[CosyPigeon]

I agree with the OP that something is needs to be done about the progression system in terms of survivability. However I do not agree that it should necessarily be done with passive leveling bonuses (although I am not ruling this out as a possibility).

Here is my suggestion:

Every time you level up your 'frame or weapon, you get are rewarded with a mod card. For most levels, this would simply be a fusion core, but every 5 levels, you would be given a choice of three cards to pick from.

For example, upon reaching level 5 with a 'frame [for example], I would be given the choice between a shield mod, a health mod, and then a third mod which is 'frame specific [for example Loki might get to choose a Melee Damage mod, but Rhino might get an armour mod). At level 10, I would be rewarded with a choice of three mod cards again. You get the idea.

This means leveling a 'frame/weapon guarantees your item will increase in power, however it doesn't require the addition of a whole new passive leveling system.

This would also be acceptable.

[Wustuv]

Notso got a good idea, I like it, kinda reminds me of the good old days :-) .

What I had in mind when starting this thread was simply: as you progress your WF, which is basically your char, there should be some mechanic to have an advantage. This is simply what RPGs are about. "Outleveling" enemies like Fadeway described it, is not that much of a problem imho, because that is why there are high-level systems with accordingly tougher opponents.

I personally just don't like the current situation, that, for an RPG, there is "no" advantage a char receives for getting more experinced... which broken down to the most common nominator should be getting harder to kill from my point of view. That would be a represantation of "Hey, this guy went through a lot of S#&$, and that's why he's a badass now", rather than the current completely drop-dependant progression. Which is fine for the equipment btw (maybe with little adjustements, but this is not the place to discuss that one), a bit like the Two Worlds approach, stack the crappy wodden sticks together until you've got the "rul0r wodden stick of damnation" ;-).

[plznohurtme]

I agree with the OP that something is needs to be done about the progression system in terms of survivability. However I do not agree that it should necessarily be done with passive leveling bonuses (although I am not ruling this out as a possibility).

Here is my suggestion:

Every time you level up your 'frame or weapon, you get are rewarded with a mod card. For most levels, this would simply be a fusion core, but every 5 levels, you would be given a choice of three cards to pick from.

For example, upon reaching level 5 with a 'frame [for example], I would be given the choice between a shield mod, a health mod, and then a third mod which is 'frame specific [for example Loki might get to choose a Melee Damage mod, but Rhino might get an armour mod). At level 10, I would be rewarded with a choice of three mod cards again. You get the idea.

This means leveling a 'frame/weapon guarantees your item will increase in power, however it doesn't require the addition of a whole new passive leveling system.

While this would make things less painful it doesn't really address the bare problem with the current system. You get nothing for having a rank 30 warframe versus a rank 1 warframe. I still think the best option is a flat hp/shield increase (ex: 5 hp/shield per rank) combined with a passive power increase either over time or via supercharging (the latter I think is a better choice... just +100 power when supercharging). It also does nothing to address the fact that some weapons simply aren't good enough due to the changes (HEK having a 4 round clip base is completely absurd since rank 30 used to base at 10) which again can easily be addressed by a gradual increase as you level to at least double clip sizes (I haven't had any problems regarding dps/damage output, so I am not really sure that the previously passive reload/rof increases are needed).

Giving people some base mods certainly fixes the growing pains, but it does nothing to change the base system. As it is right now for maximum ability you need to have your 4 abilities, 1 shield, 1 health, and at least 1 efficiency/power max... this doesn't leave you with a lot of choices, however if the base hp of a rank 30 frame was over 200 you could perhaps just go with a shield mod and no hp mod, and if the power was up to 200 at rank 30 you wouldn't *need* efficiency/power max these things alone freeing up two slots to do something else with.

[Otaiken]

Balance is completely screwed at the moment. The upgrade cost of certain mods makes no sense what so ever. Why are powers so expensive to upgrade? Passives are boring... Make powers level up with frames, it's not like most of them is any good even at rank 3. Also I'm currently stuck at 200% shield/HP and I don't think I'll be able to upgrade any time soon. But I have quite good dmg, since you can stack 3 elemental dmg mods + your basic damage mod all together, so they cost less since you don't need to have them that high. Can't do that with shields though. Because this is the case I can pretty much oneshot anything below 30 with my Lex. And around lvl 32 is a sweet spot for me. Everything below that is absolute cakewalk... anything above that is nightmare.

Why does specialization cost more than all around builds? Every build is the same as a result of this. I can't build hard hitting weapon focused on single element I can only build weapons with basic dmg, every type of elemental damage, firerate, multishot, reload speed and critical chance. I have this setup on every.single.one. of my weapons.... yay for diversity. This system forces you spread your mods thin instead of focusing in one. It's getting rather silly how my enemies get simultaneously frozen, set on fire and electrocuted with every shot

[plznohurtme]

Balance is completely screwed at the moment. The upgrade cost of certain mods makes no sense what so ever. Why are powers so expensive to upgrade? Passives are boring... Make powers level up with frames, it's not like most of them is any good even at rank 3. Also I'm currently stuck at 200% shield/HP and I don't think I'll be able to upgrade any time soon. But I have quite good dmg, since you can stack 3 elemental dmg mods + your basic damage mod all together, so they cost less since you don't need to have them that high. Can't do that with shields though. Because this is the case I can pretty much oneshot anything below 30 with my Lex. And around lvl 32 is a sweet spot for me. Everything below that is absolute cakewalk... anything above that is nightmare.

Why does specialization cost more than all around builds? Every build is the same as a result of this. I can't build hard hitting weapon focused on single element I can only build weapons with basic dmg, every type of elemental damage, firerate, multishot, reload speed and critical chance. I have this setup on every.single.one. of my weapons.... yay for diversity. This system forces you spread your mods thin instead of focusing in one. It's getting rather silly how my enemies get simultaneously frozen, set on fire and electrocuted with every shot

To some extent I think this will flesh out as we get further mod wise and/or get better mods etc. I have the same thing going on to an extent with my pistol, but that's mostly because I don't have everything fully upgraded yet. The reasoning behind killing stacking makes very good sense, but right now it's just not possible to get into a position where you pick fire/ap/frost/ele over one another because you can have most of them at the same time unless you have a ton of cores/dupes and money to spend.