Don't Forget The Brakk, De ;)

[HillsAndTheSea]

And how do we know that the 98 other weapons are balanced correctly?

 

Do you know how a scale works? 

 

when are actually comparable, and all advantages are presented with appropiate disadvantages, we will have balance. both objects should have similar weights

Edited February 3, 2014 by HillsAndTheSea

[jimjia]

This may be hated or loved, but if we are to bring back the brakk, people who already have it should get an akbrakk to compensate for the time they had spend getting the first brakk.

[Guest Shibboleet]

Do you know how a scale works? 

 

when are actually comparable, and all advantages are presented with appropiate disadvantages, we will have balance. both objects should have similar weights

Balancing solely around a scale comparing weapons isn't enough. There is target enemy level, intended power of weapons, and relation between warframe abilities. Right now there are tiers of weapons based on dps/ammo efficiency with the Brakk on top, but the tier system either needs to be defined by Warframe or complete rebalancing of stats towards the three types stated.

[syle]

I wouldn't say prime weapons are easy to get some did more than 100 runs for the prime weapons and they aren't as nice as brakk

just syaing

[Voidflow]

...

Solution imo would be simple, remove endless missions all together. If content cant completed then you shouldnt encourage ppl to try to beat it. Some simply cant understand that game shouldnt be balanced around such idea.

...

This or rework to level cap.

btw. I quote myself from another topic:

...

- level cap of enemies at 60

- AI improvement

- balance of damage abilities around lvl 60

- nerfing CC and Utility abilities

(e.g. Bastille -> slow field and no lift off, snow globe -> incoming bullet damage decreased by 80 %, etc.)

- nerfing / changing corrupted mods

(or each mod should affect each ability )

- Difficulty scaling not via lvl (fixed at 60) but via AI, enemy type, amount of enemies, ammo/orb drops and maybe enemy damage (included in enemy type: standard squads -> elite squads).

Without level cap you will never find a proper balance between damage and CC/utility skills.

With considering of damage scaling with enemy level, one can go stright forward for level cap ...

So it is basically not only a problem of frame balance, but mostly of the way endless game mode is designed.

Enemies effective health bar scaling is a bad design. It should be AI, unit type and amountof enemies ... and not how spongy the enemies are.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Voidflow

[LazyKnight]

I'm tempted to argue this, but really there is no such thing as ammo viability in late game because ammo packs are made of nanospores, so I will not.

The secondary weapons below Brakk have poor ammo efficiency in both low and mid game. The only real exception is stug, but that weird blob-goo gun has weird hit-box detection. The various other shotgun pistols that are not Brakk are decent, but the largest majority of pistols are high ammo usage for thier DPS.

 

Boar prime is a joke, it is touted as a DPS weapon, but it's only usable for a few seconds. Same problem with akbolto, wraith vipers and vasto(s), they simply use absurd amounts of ammo in a brief period of time.

 

 

Balancing solely around a scale comparing weapons isn't enough. There is target enemy level, intended power of weapons, and relation between warframe abilities. Right now there are tiers of weapons based on dps/ammo efficiency with the Brakk on top, but the tier system either needs to be defined by Warframe or complete rebalancing of stats towards the three types stated.

This is true, weapons relative to other weapons is a totally irrelevant benchmark, it matters how they are balanced relative to content that players are supposed to overcome

[shut]

Is DPSFrame even reliable? I noticed that a couple of weapons were outdated and that the builds for competitive DPS are... crappy.

 

The Soma is equipped with a Bane mod and no Speed Trigger, for starters.

[HillsAndTheSea]

Balancing solely around a scale comparing weapons isn't enough. There is target enemy level, intended power of weapons, and relation between warframe abilities. Right now there are tiers of weapons based on dps/ammo efficiency with the Brakk on top, but the tier system either needs to be defined by Warframe or complete rebalancing of stats towards the three types stated.

 

yes, weapons are about more than damage, but you must understand how much weight pure dps brings to the table. everything else is irrelevevant if you can kill the target quicker

 

weapons are also not defined by warframes because they work separately. you dont need any particular warframe to use any particular weapon, and all buffs effect each weapon the same. if i use molecular prime on an enemy, its x2 damage regardless if i am using mk-1 braton or brakk

 

according to DE, the current game officially ends at level 38 (nothing past that is mandatory nor advised), they have openly stated this, along with the game never going to be balanced towards endless anything, for good reason it will never will, and it is except from scales, it is impossible to balance content for enemies both level 1 and level 99999999999999+. 

 

so the bottom line, for DE themsevles defines as the current endgame, aka T3/OD, 30k dps is way, way, too much, you dont even need 15k dps for level 38 enemies to be a joke. primary and secondary weapons are much too powerful, with the brakk being the worse offender by a large margin

[MoyuTheTrinity]

Because nerfing 1 Weapon that performs way over the top is easier than buffing all the other Weapons that perform as intended (some weapons being the exception because theire crap).

 

In the end it doesnt really matter if Brakk gets nerfed or not because 75%+ of all other weapons do the job. I just see 30k DPS vs. 15k DPS and that is something out of the ordinary and should be looked at. It does not matter if a Gun does 30k DPS if 10k are enough to kill everything except Wave 100 Defense Mobs.

well why not take the 1 epic weapon that outpreforms the best gun its type is based off of (shotguns) and bring it down to scale then make all the other guns up to scale aswell because having stupid strong guns we will need stupid strong enemys and then power creep happens cuz the enemys are so strong we need even more stupid strong guns why not dial back all the over powered guns make the enemys weaker but then give them good variation and ai so everything is balanced and not just either a slaughter fest for the tenno or a slaughter fest for the enemycuz when everygame mode is just a slaughter fest it gets old kinda fast

[[DE]Momaw]

Looking at those numbers, what I'm wondering is why ALL the shotguns aren't really really high on DPS. It shouldn't even be comparable, the DPS you can do with a rifle like Soma at 50 meters distant versus a shotgun at 5 or less.

[LazyKnight]

well why not take the 1 epic weapon that outpreforms the best gun its type is based off of (shotguns) and bring it down to scale then make all the other guns up to scale aswell because having stupid strong guns we will need stupid strong enemys and then power creep happens cuz the enemys are so strong we need even more stupid strong guns why not dial back all the over powered guns make the enemys weaker but then give them good variation and ai so everything is balanced and not just either a slaughter fest for the tenno or a slaughter fest for the enemycuz when everygame mode is just a slaughter fest it gets old kinda fast

The quickest way to lower its DPS without too much backlash: Lower Brakk fire rate to 2.5 base.

 

This wouldn't change its stopping power, but would stop it from being a DPS weapons. It would be comparable to Detron if this was done.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

The quickest way to lower its DPS without too much backlash: Lower Brakk fire rate to 2.5 base.

 

This wouldn't change its stopping power, but would stop it from being a DPS weapons. It would be comparable to Detron if this was done.

 

yeah im not saying criple it to being usless in most situations (kinda isnt even tho it has mega falloff most instences its always gona be close combat)

but the lex does not have good dps its very slow and withonly 1 fire rate mod the lethal torrent it instantly becomes viable at any range they could do this to the brakk and people would still use it as it hits like a god damn truck it does not need to be so fast it has a ton of ammo reloads neerly instantly and hits very very hard with extream shotgun accuracy the lex is accuret and hits not neerly as hard but its not a bad weapon

I understand the brakk was earned but its holding the game back if every enemy has to be compaired to it since a majority of the people who are actively responding to the game on the fourms owns this gun all the feed back for hte game is skewed in favor of everything is to weak my brakk murders it or oh this gun sucks make it strong like the brakk

 

why not actualy have a plan and form a tier system or a sidegrade system why just leave loss ends out there like this DE it will only hurt your game further as it messes with your feed back in a very large way how can yo ube sure that post with 50+ likes that a gun is to weak and to buff it isnt just someone complaining that it isnt as good as their brakk or that a boss is to weak and you should make him stronger mabe they just liquified him as nova using m prime and the brakk to 4 shot him point black you will never know unless they tell you

 

I want you to have your brakk but its a shotgun and shotguns in games that dont have drastic drop off in there damage they are generaly the only used gun because of how abusable they are with low skill in and EXTREAM damage out they hurt the ecosystem of the game because then your just a scrub who does not use the best type of gun in the game so you must be weak for having the wrong mind set or the shotgun is given damage fall off then its a niche gun and noone cares for it eccept people who have gun fetiches for shotguns

 

I understand the point of all of it but there is no clear way to fix this I am aware of other then balancing everything to be just as strong as a tenno with better ai give the enemys limited health based on a warframe that does a similer job give them mod slots and polaritys with mods that adjust to their level and job maybe have them rng maybe one got lucky and has a rare mod or something equiped make their guns litteral exact replicas of the ones we can use with mod slots and everything this would be amazingly more fun to fight and be way easier to balance around as the enemys would be no diffrent then us you would have a base line we would still have all the advantage in the world because we are free thinkers compaired to ai

 

TL:DR scale everything down have a plan on what can or cant be stronger find a commen ground that is easy to balance around dont stray from it DE stick to thos arms and defend your selection of ground nerf and buff everything to fit within thos constraightns so that everything is a side grade or a reasonable tier system that makes sence and balance your enemys around it the future of your game depends on it probably maybe

[Guest Shibboleet]

yes, weapons are about more than damage, but you must understand how much weight pure dps brings to the table. everything else is irrelevevant if you can kill the target quicker

 

weapons are also not defined by warframes because they work separately. you dont need any particular warframe to use any particular weapon, and all buffs effect each weapon the same. if i use molecular prime on an enemy, its x2 damage regardless if i am using mk-1 braton or brakk

 

according to DE, the current game officially ends at level 38 (nothing past that is mandatory nor advised), they have openly stated this, along with the game never going to be balanced towards endless anything, for good reason it will never will, and it is except from scales, it is impossible to balance content for enemies both level 1 and level 99999999999999+. 

 

so the bottom line, for DE themsevles defines as the current endgame, aka T3/OD, 30k dps is way, way, too much, you dont even need 15k dps for level 38 enemies to be a joke. primary and secondary weapons are much too powerful, with the brakk being the worse offender by a large margin

They have also openly stated that there is an end-game plan in the works, so I am in the opinion that balancing will need to occur. Remember that there is never going to be a promised model as long as this is an open beta.

 

Ax2 multiplier on a weapon with less base damage is going to be lower overall compared to one with 3-4x the damage, since it multiplies.

 

I am also on board with lowering the Brakk's overall damage output, but I think mods are more of a culprit than anything.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Shibboleet

[MoyuTheTrinity]

They have also openly stated that there is an end-game plan in the works, so I am in the opinion that balancing will need to occur. Remember that there is never going to be a promised model as long as this is an open beta.

 

Ax2 multiplier on a weapon with less base damage is going to be lower overall compared to one with 3-4x the damage, since it multiplies.

 

I am also on board with lowering the Brakk's overall damage output, but I think mods are more of a culprit than anything.

isnt the brakk like 50 damge for all 3 damage types

 but other pistols more like 15-20 damage with all 3 damage types combined

[ReptileZA]

The Brakk will never, ever be seen again. Ever. That's why it's so overpowered. Nobody else can get it. One time deal, baby. Maybe in another year it'll drop in three parts from a new Grineer Stalker-style baddy. But don't count on it.

As it is now: No one can get the Brakk. Not anymore. Nobody. Just the big sweaty kids.

You need to understand that before making threads like this.

 

Can you please link me to the post or livestream etc. where they mentioned the brakk ( a whole new weapon not a wraith or vandal ) is exclusive and never coming back?

[HailCreation]

DPS is one of the stupidest metrics to try and determine a weapon's effectiveness. it doesn't work in this game because you're aiming at a moving target. 

 

This isn't wow where you sit on a boss and worry about sustained dps. 

 

Every thread whining about the brakk's dps goes like this: "hey guys, look how high of a number this weapon has when you theory craft, who cares about actually using it in game!"

[Guest Shibboleet]

DPS is one of the stupidest metrics to try and determine a weapon's effectiveness. it doesn't work in this game because you're aiming at a moving target. 

 

This isn't wow where you sit on a boss and worry about sustained dps. 

 

Every thread whining about the brakk's dps goes like this: "hey guys, look how high of a number this weapon has when you theory craft, who cares about actually using it in game!"

Ok then, I used it to the wave 205 outer terminus run, and from that I can say it is still extremely potent. I actually do not care about the standard damage per second model, but the damage per shot model.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Shibboleet

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

Yeah, for this type of game that has NPC that live a matter of seconds it is not as relevant to be concerned with DPS. With most MMO-RPG or pure RPG, NPC will live a matter of minutes requiring theory crafting or at least a basic understanding of how to min/max damage.

 

Most Action RPG do not require more than a minimum perpetration time of having the appropriate tiered weapon for the content.

 

This game is more like an arcade shooter, where the issue is not dealing enough damage, but changing target rapidly enough to avoid getting hit. It's not a DPS race, and weapons that can clear their targets quicker and move on are more valuable than weapons that need to linger for a duration(worthless dot weapon...).

[Mochinpra]

They should just redo the whole weapon system. Where primaries, secondaries, and melees are all longswords. There will be no difference between the longswords except the skin.

 

Then there will be nothing to nerf because everything is the same and nobody can be hurt because noone is stronger than anybody else. And while they are at it they should release platinum only weapons (like Brakk and Soma) so then the only complaining about weapons are from people who cant pay for it. 

 

:D

[Qmoney]

When people quote the dps of weapons in this game, I facepalm.

 

So many assumptions are required to compare these values its friggin' ridiculous.  Damage falloff, hitting weak points, damage type effectiveness, ammo efficiency (on some weapons, implies a very low sustained DPS)

 

It's like people who think that heavy caliber should be on everything, and then are way less effective than the guy who sacrifices a bit of damage to use a different mod but goes for weak points, maybe with a banshee.  Sure, if your target is a wall 4 meters in front of you, you will get more DPS.  Once you're facing enemies tough enough that you actually need that much damage, they make you their b*tch at close range.

[Grulos]

The Brakk should be on-par with the Detron.

 

The Brakk is severely overpowered (the damage fall off does nothing): Higher rate of fire, much higher damage/pellet count/crit chance/crit damage.

 

Brakk S#&$s on every other gun.

[ArmyOfFun]

The Brakk should be on-par with the Detron.

 

The Brakk is severely overpowered (the damage fall off does nothing): Higher rate of fire, much higher damage/pellet count/crit chance/crit damage.

 

Brakk S#&$s on every other gun.

Fall off damage is important.  Its the reason all other shotguns suck atm.  Many other weapons poop on shotguns that don't preform better at their optimal range before fall off and are totally useless after that range.  The exception is the Drakgoon with no fall off damage, innate puncture, and high damage per shot with a potentially small spread.

 

Yes, the Brakk has higher dmg/pellet count with EVEN crit to Detron. It however is a spread weapon high on impact (not that great) and lowest on puncture.  Detron is pure radiation  Detron is specialized in pure radiation which is highly effective for one enemy type heavy Grineers.

 

Every other shotgun needs a major buff not the other way around.

 

The unkown is a factor for all event weapons.  Some people think "not worth" so they skip events only for it to come back and bite them.  The they are hellbent on making sure they don't miss the next one.

[ReptileZA]

The Brakk should be on-par with the Detron.

 

The Brakk is severely overpowered (the damage fall off does nothing): Higher rate of fire, much higher damage/pellet count/crit chance/crit damage.

 

Brakk S#&$s on every other gun.

Agree x100

[Grulos]

Fall off damage is important.  Its the reason all other shotguns suck atm.  Many other weapons poop on shotguns that don't preform better at their optimal range before fall off and are totally useless after that range.  The exception is the Drakgoon with no fall off damage, innate puncture, and high damage per shot with a potentially small spread.

 

Yes, the Brakk has higher dmg/pellet count with EVEN crit to Detron. It however is a spread weapon high on impact (not that great) and lowest on puncture.  Detron is pure radiation  Detron is specialized in pure radiation which is highly effective for one enemy type heavy Grineers.

 

Every other shotgun needs a major buff not the other way around.

 

The unkown is a factor for all event weapons.  Some people think "not worth" so they skip events only for it to come back and bite them.  The they are hellbent on making sure they don't miss the next one.

Also, I forgot to add:

 

The Brakk has 2 polarities, while the Detron has NOT A SINGLE ONE.

 

And the Crit Chance is not even: Brakk 15%, Detron 10%.

 

I'm not whining about shotguns in general, they should be close-quarter weapons, but the Brakk excels in this category.

 

What I want is, that the Detron is brought up to the Brakk (more similar crit chance/damage, polarities, damage)

[LazyKnight]

What I want is, that the Detron is brought up to the Brakk (more similar crit chance/damage, polarities, damage)

It couldn't hurt to improve Detron critical chance, critical damage,and status chance, they are lackluster for no apparent reason.