Redlove108 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Phage #2 weapon in the game after Burston Prime. Honestly this change along with having a lot of shotguns falling off in effectiveness right when a new one is released just screams of serious power creep. The fact that the fastest way to get Phage is with plat just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, almost makes it seem like this was deliberate in order to make the phage even more appealing. Because it clearly needed to be more appealing than it already was at first glance. I'm really hoping this isn't the case but boy does it sure look that way. It has more than 2X the sustained DPS of Boar Prime. I don't see any problems with Phage being in the marketplace. Honestly I think having clan tech exclusive weapons is bad for business. This lets DE cash in on it from those that want it here and now. While others who prefer to get it free can do so through their clan which is far better than grinding a boss, void or derelict. Besides DE has to make money back from this MMO somehow! You can't expect them to keep pushing out content without getting any kind of money back. Give them a break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) But at the cost of obsoleting every other gun in its class? That's going too far and makes it more clear that the gun is a cashgrab, in my opinion. Edited February 10, 2014 by Noble_Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythadragon Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Phage #2 weapon in the game after Burston Prime. Honestly this change along with having a lot of shotguns falling off in effectiveness right when a new one is released just screams of serious power creep. The fact that the fastest way to get Phage is with plat just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, almost makes it seem like this was deliberate in order to make the phage even more appealing. Because it clearly needed to be more appealing than it already was at first glance. I'm really hoping this isn't the case but boy does it sure look that way. It has more than 2X the sustained DPS of Boar Prime. http://dpsframe.com/ I am not seeing how 1 - burston prime is #1 weapon in the game (soma? latron prime?) 2 - phage has more than 2X the sustained DPS of boar prime I have not used the phage yet, but from seeing it on youtube, it starts out with a very unfocused cone of fire that slowly comes together as you aim, thus limiting its dps/concentrated damage potential. If you have a better source of information to support what you said, could you please share it? Edited February 10, 2014 by Pythadragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) He is referring to this chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqEdgMHjBhOHdFk1dTBxQUdoOXBmOTN2TTFkTjBvTUE&usp=sharing#gid=6%C2%A0 The time it takes to focus the cone to a desirable length, along with the fact that you have to aim down sights, would make you think that its damage potential is lower. But that also works to its advantage, since you can bathe an entire crowd in tentacles at once.Afte It's pretty ridiculous, considering that even un-forma'd Phages are outdamaging people with maxed-out or near maxed-out gear in just about every mission I've played. But this isn't a nerf Phage thread, before people get the wrong idea. It's more to show how wide the discrepancy between a shotgun that can proc reliably is compared to one that cannot. Edited February 10, 2014 by Noble_Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redlove108 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 So which chart is right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinsaotomex4 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 From what I've messed around with, GottFaust's tool (he made the spreadsheet) is much more accurate than dpsframe. dpsframe has an ease of use advantage but this is GottFaust's tool https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/90706-unofficial-weapon-dps-calculator-current-v052/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyKnight Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) He is referring to this chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqEdgMHjBhOHdFk1dTBxQUdoOXBmOTN2TTFkTjBvTUE&usp=sharing#gid=6%C2%A0 Gottfaust has to be taking the Viral proc as the reason that the time to kill is so good. I'll test my phage later today, but if it is anything like synapse, it wouldn't proc as much as that calculator indicates. Also, time to kill toxic ancient [100] for phage has to be a glitch. Edited February 10, 2014 by LazyKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinsaotomex4 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) I don't see any problems with Phage being in the marketplace. Honestly I think having clan tech exclusive weapons is bad for business. This lets DE cash in on it from those that want it here and now. While others who prefer to get it free can do so through their clan which is far better than grinding a boss, void or derelict. Besides DE has to make money back from this MMO somehow! You can't expect them to keep pushing out content without getting any kind of money back. Give them a break I don't particularly care if DE makes any money or not to be perfectly honest. I am not an investor for DE, I don't own any stock and I am only a consumer so I only care for the consumer part that doesn't screw me over. If DE wants to have a business model that is ultimately not sustainable for them, that's not my problem and they should've picked a better business model to begin with. I will not give them a break (why would I do this anyway as a consumer specially when they take months to address weapon issues?) while they cripple a bunch of weapons. Anyway, my point was that if DE nerfs (or "fixes" in the case of continuous fire weapons and multi-pellet guns) old weapons in order to make the new ones appealing (while creating an absolutely obvious power creep) then they are purposely obsoleting guns and play styles simply to annoy/frustrate people in the hopes that they spend platinum on the new gun that isn't anywhere near as crippled as the rest. If this is not their intention then that's fine but this it is the same end result anyway, a bunch of old powerful guns that people invested a lot of time into are now severely outclassed by a weapon that is fastest to acquire with platinum only. Eventually people are just going to get frustrated to the point where they won't buy catalysts or forma for weapons since they'll be wary about them getting hit with the nerf bat when the next new shiny gun comes out and that will cripple their business model more than anything in the long run. DE could have reverted this change as well as fixing the continuous firing weapons back to what they were instead both of these changes affected some very old and popular guns and surprise, surprise... the phage outclasses absolutely everything else in both of these categories. The "coincidence" just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't care if the Phage is as powerful as it is to be perfectly honest and they should leave it as is, I'd rather they uncrippled all the guns their "fixes" destroyed. That's why I am posting here, so DE can see how this "fix" negatively affected a whole class of weapons for no reason. Edited February 10, 2014 by jinsaotomex4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinsaotomex4 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Gottfaust has to be taking the Viral proc as the reason that the time to kill is so good. I'll test my phage later today, but if it is anything like synapse, it wouldn't proc as much as that calculator indicates. Yeah, Gott's tool takes all procs into consideration and uses viral procs for TTK as well as keeping up with all the changes done to the game which is why a lot of Shotguns are so low compared to before and a lot of continuous weapons have stuff like 1 second TTK due to the way the damage is calculated now. Pre-patch the Sobek was one of the top 5 guns for TTK (DPS wasn't that high anyway) IIRC since it would proc like nobody's business and the "fix" slapped it down to #24. Dpsframe doesn't really seem to take procs into consideration for calculating damage which is why a lot of stuff is way higher or lower than it should be. Edited February 10, 2014 by jinsaotomex4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyKnight Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Dpsframe doesn't really seem to take procs into consideration for calculating damage which is why a lot of stuff is way higher or lower than it should be. Dpsframe.com is useful for getting raw dps number, but status effects are not counted. Status effects for Viral and corrosive could be annoying to implement into a calculator; They're annoying enough to deal with when just doing the math. The proc system still needs work overall because it's not working as intended, and in some case not even working at all. Off-topic?: Personally, I think the radiation debuff should be changed so it functions like corrosive's effect so they both function as an armor debuff. This would make it far more apparent in game that radiation is anti-alloy armor. They have a few things done with the status effects that just does not work quite right because of the speed NPC die. Gas's and toxin's dot takes far too long (something around 9 seconds, could be slightly off) to do its damage, and it would be better as a shorter duration dot or have a confusion effect similar to radiation. Radiation doesn't work because the target hit would most likely be dead from the ordeal, and it would be better to have its effects spread as an AOE confusion debuff. Edited February 10, 2014 by LazyKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Mau Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) He is referring to this chart: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqEdgMHjBhOHdFk1dTBxQUdoOXBmOTN2TTFkTjBvTUE&usp=sharing#gid=6%C2%A0 This is interesting...what elemental combo is being used here, on the Burston Prime for example? I assume Corossive+Heat? The mod order implies Gas+Electric. I'm not sure I can wrap my mind around the Ballistica and AkMagnus being higher than the Brakk. As much as I would love that to be true, there is just no way. Edited February 10, 2014 by 1Mau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinsaotomex4 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) The values are calculated for optimal conditions aka getting the max fire rate possible even if it's a trigger gun (so 8.3 clicks a second for Akmagnus which isn't possible in most cases without clever usage of your mouse or 3rd party tools). All your shots hitting the target, proper recoil compensation, etc since they're done with a calculator. Also the very topic we are discussing nerfed the brakk pretty hard and it can make up for it with damage but the lack of procs made it drop from #1 for unleashing procs on enemies to #23 for TTK (!). Enemies being level 100 also matters due to changes in armor scaling and such. Edited February 10, 2014 by jinsaotomex4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinsaotomex4 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 New patch and no changes, let's keep this thread going so DE is made aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaidinah Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 New patch and no changes, let's keep this thread going so DE is made aware of it. I'll raise you a new thread. If I make another thread hopefully a commod will notice and merge them, granting both threads some scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrosslyIncandescent1709 Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 *push* shotguns should get their purpose back imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaidinah Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 *push* shotguns should get their purpose back imo Shotguns deserve to get their niche back. They already suck at long and even medium range, might as well make them cause hell at short range. Warbros #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) damn... there goes my boar p. just tested and it does status on about every second shot which is exactly as the numbers say - 56.5% with event mod Edited February 19, 2014 by Monolake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishki88 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 The fact that majority of guns have little to no proc is one of the main reasons why this game is now....just a regular space shooter....... procs added a needed "rpg" "mmo" or w/e you want to call it to the game...it added a type of "science" to warframe.... having low proc will not be good in the long run...........5-15 percent is not enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble_Cactus Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) damn... there goes my boar p. just tested and it does status on about every second shot which is exactly as the numbers say - 56.5% with event mod I tested mine and mostly Impact procs, but barely any elemental procs. I counted 8 Radiation procs in 10 waves of Grineer asteroid defense. I wasn't counting the Impact procs but it wasn't all that many either. Edited February 19, 2014 by Noble_Cactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I tested mine and mostly Impact procs, but barely any elemental procs. I counted 8 Radiation procs in 10 waves of Grineer asteroid defense. I wasn't counting the Impact procs but it wasn't all that many either. Yes, thats the main problem it seems to me - it procs anything from base damage type to elements, so your elemental combo will only proc like what, one out of 4 procs? and base type are not very usefull: just a stagger, weaken (what is that I dont even) and small bleding (not much for lvl30s). I equipped unranked mods, used Loki and shoot pointblank on lvl30s to not one-shot enemies and looked at healthbar to see the proc sign appears, in a normal gameplay you usually dont notice the physical procs and you just kill them pretty fast, thats why it may seem there are so few procs now. When before it was several procs on every shot with high chance for usefull elemental procs. Burston Prime that procs on every burst usually takes 3 bursts to proc elements, Btw TTK calculations considering procs averages are very unrealistic because in real conditions its too random, it may not proc corrosive for several bursts and you end up shooting a heavy for 5 seconds more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redlove108 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Was this mentioned before? That the procs and crits only trigger if the enemy isn't dead or is needed to kill them? Which makes it nearly impossible to tell if your gun is procing or not if your fighting anything that just dies in 3 pellets. I really hope they changed this mechanic. I don't care if I go with a super charged shotgun and face lvl 1-5 Grineer. I want to see all the pellets hit it and all the crits/procs trigger. What I hate seeing is that 1 single pellet lands and the rest just never seem to have existed. This further makes it impossible to tell if your one round could've proc or not. I'm using an extreme case with lvl 1-5 Grineer. My shotgun can still one shot lvl 30 Grineer. I certainly see more pellets but I don't see much in the way of procs or crits. Only if I nicked the target with half of the pellets might I see something proc. So I haven't a clue if any of this is working right because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyKnight Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Was this mentioned before? That the procs and crits only trigger if the enemy isn't dead or is needed to kill them? Which makes it nearly impossible to tell if your gun is procing or not if your fighting anything that just dies in 3 pellets. I really hope they changed this mechanic. I have mentioned that before. Also, the status effects do not seem to be calculated or applied until after damage, and this renders effects like magnetic worse than useless on sub-level 100 shielded NPC(status de-buffs need to be applied before damage). Gas is also useless because it seems to get cancelled out if the NPC dies in a single hit and is easily the buggiest of all status effects. Edit: The part about damage before status effect is just speculation on my part, and It just wouldn't be a surprising thing if DE did that to cut down on bandwidth usage. Edited February 19, 2014 by LazyKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Other guns don't have that issue (procs and crits not going off if the shot kills them). I don't think that it matters if the target lives or dies, if it procs, you'll see the effect and the symbol on your damage numbers. If you want a target to test on, I usually use Kril on Phobos. While Kril is invulnerable, you can still proc status effects on him. Used to use Radiation procs to makes his minions slowly poke him to death when they land lucky hits to the back, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redlove108 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Other guns don't have that issue (procs and crits not going off if the shot kills them). I don't think that it matters if the target lives or dies, if it procs, you'll see the effect and the symbol on your damage numbers. If you want a target to test on, I usually use Kril on Phobos. While Kril is invulnerable, you can still proc status effects on him. Used to use Radiation procs to makes his minions slowly poke him to death when they land lucky hits to the back, lol. That will only help me test if the procs are working. It won't help the game feel any different from any other space shooter. Before you would see enemies light up on fire, freeze and so on. You would see all these great effects with your guns but now Warframe feels like any other shooter. All it's special RPG elements seem to have vanished. The procs aren't even useful in combat anymore unless your facing super high level mobs where you truly need them. Yet that apparently is when the game breaks and we aren't meant to be fighting lvl 100 mobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletmachine Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I'm reviving this, using shotguns feels like stage 4 in the picture below: That's just plain wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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