True Necromancer - Nekros Theme Revamp

[Gault_Siebers]

Love how you're able to maintain your undead squad with the new third skill concept, while having them be more useful by having them actively follow you around. I'll take it.

 

One thing I kinda like about soul punch is how it knocks back enemies, so instead of an entirely new ability, having it behave in a manner where if the enemy's health is 10% or under when It gets hit it'll reanimate? The newer concept would work too.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Gault_Siebers

[Gault_Siebers]

Another idea; Having so that if you have 'minions' up, upon re-casting Shadows of the dead you summon the remaining minions available at a discount based on how many minions you have still standing? For example, if you had 3 out of 15 minions still standing your energy cost would be calculated as such; 100-((15/100)*3).

 

Also having some sort of marker on the screen to show how many and/or what kind of units you have available would be quite useful, but it's not really necessary.

[Archwizard]

Love how you're able to maintain your undead squad with the new third skill concept, while having them be more useful by having them actively follow you around. I'll take it.

 

Yeah, it's an idea that's been sneaking around the forums since before he was released; a very simple concept that gives him loads of synergy with his minions while still keeping his role primarily as support.

 

One thing I kinda like about soul punch is how it knocks back enemies

 

Which you wouldn't need to worry about if Terrify didn't have a cooldown/make enemies untargettable.

[Skynin]

Soul Blast: Blowing up the soul of your victim, staggering (enemies can't move few moments because terror possessed their minds), increasing damage taken for few seconds, chaining in radius of 2 meters (affected by mods) (first blast causing souls of enemies nearby explode as well, chaining reaction like Nova's MP but with low damage and debuff), maybe with little health leech over time per each target.

Rot Rounds: Enchancing range weapons for extra punch through (makes projectiles decay matter on its way) and to deal damage over time, slow down enemies. Team buff.

Nekros NEED some changes very much, he is very boring to play with.
 

Edited February 23, 2014 by Skynin

[Archwizard]

Rot Rounds: Enchancing range weapons for extra punch through (makes projectiles decay matter on its way) and to deal damage over time, slow down enemies. Team buff.

 

Not sure that has anything to do with the Necromancy theme.

[Skynin]

Not sure that has anything to do with the Necromancy theme.

Because that's for Nekros.

[XDeathCoreX]

Allow the fallen you bring back as shadows to stalk you much like Ember's World On Fire flames.

[Archwizard]

Allow the fallen you bring back as shadows to stalk you much like Ember's World On Fire flames.

 

I don't think they need to be that close. The Infested are all melee enemies, so they need to be able to charge at foes; besides, they act sort of like bloodhounds for ya on Defenses.

[XDeathCoreX]

I don't think they need to be that close. The Infested are all melee enemies, so they need to be able to charge at foes; besides, they act sort of like bloodhounds for ya on Defenses.

I meant to move from room to room, but not stick to you like glue. They are never too far behind or you can teleport them to your location without the long summoning animation.

 

The melee should be able to teleport in the face of enemies on their own.

[Phatose]

This is the kind of thing that would be best used once DE starts introducing gender-swapped variations on a theme.

[Noble_Cactus]

This is the kind of thing that would be best used once DE starts introducing gender-swapped variations on a theme.

 

Why?

[Phatose]

Why?

 

Several reasons.  One, a change to 50% of the abilities a warframe is pretty huge - bordering on "new warframe" territory even before factoring in that Desecrate is very much his trademark move, based on how often it gets used.  Simply removing a much used ability for being unthematic this far after release - after people have builds around it - is at best extremely rude to the player base.

 

Two, there's bound to be considerable disagreement on what constitute Necromancer like behavior.  For example, I'd say terrify is actually not very Necromancer like.  If they scare you, it's cause of the things they do, while terrify functions more like a form of mind-control and would be more appropriate on something like Nyx. 

 

Third, what's being presented here is very much a variation on a common theme.  When DE has already stated a desire to under gender swaps for precisely such a purpose, it's only natural to fit the two together.  Archwizard can get something closer to a true Necromancer, as he sees them, while those of us who've taken a liking to Nekros as is aren't put out in the cold unnecessarily.

[Archwizard]

Several reasons.  One, a change to 50% of the abilities a warframe is pretty huge - bordering on "new warframe" territory even before factoring in that Desecrate is very much his trademark move, based on how often it gets used.  Simply removing a much used ability for being unthematic this far after release - after people have builds around it - is at best extremely rude to the player base.

 

Two, there's bound to be considerable disagreement on what constitute Necromancer like behavior.  For example, I'd say terrify is actually not very Necromancer like.  If they scare you, it's cause of the things they do, while terrify functions more like a form of mind-control and would be more appropriate on something like Nyx. 

 

Third, what's being presented here is very much a variation on a common theme.  When DE has already stated a desire to under gender swaps for precisely such a purpose, it's only natural to fit the two together.  Archwizard can get something closer to a true Necromancer, as he sees them, while those of us who've taken a liking to Nekros as is aren't put out in the cold unnecessarily.

 

Except first, DE has already proven themselves fully capable of removing abilities and changing up frames in their entirety- just look at Ember or Rhino.

 

Second, Desecrate has always been a very polarizing ability, and was universally panned when it was announced with the strong implication from DE that it would be removed - even if it quickly gained a following (and this is only because of the simultaneous release of Survivals that it could cheat, mind) its release felt like a suckerpunch all the same. Many players who "like" it use it to exclusion of his other skills (in which case, see Snow Globe), while it has received numerous critiques since release from those who always disagreed, without any change whatsoever.

It's not just that it's nonthematic; it's that it completely overshadows the rest of his skillset- including his actual "raise the dead" ultimate which he's supposedly named for- and spits in the face of what players were expecting from a necromancer to pidgeonhole him into a niche nobody wanted, which in itself is a waste of an opportunity. Not to mention that it's a completely standalone skill with no interaction with anything else he does, and "building for it" relies entirely on Equilibrium.

You'd think Scott would get more complaints like Frost, "all I ever do is spam Desecrate over and over again".

 

Third, they've all but admitted Soul Punch only exists because of its gimmicky name.

 

Fourth, and I probably should've led with this, they've also said it's highly unlikely we'll ever get gender-swapped frames. While they did state that "if it ever happened" we'd get a new set of abilities for them, Scott's reactions in Devstream 22 strongly implied that we're unlikely to see more frame-specific skills.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Archwizard

[Phatose]

Shadows of the dead's big problem was that it shouldn't have been an ultimate.  It's thematically appropriate, but it's a tier 2 or 3 skill tops.  Bringing back enemies who were weak enough that you could kill them without using your ultimate simply isn't an ultimate class ability.  You've already established that those enemies were weak by killing them.  We aren't talking about something that belongs in the Nuke class. 

 

Much better to kick it down to the lower tiers where it belongs and replace it with something better.  Summoning the grim reaper, or a swarm of giant flaming skulls, or those death-head angel things from Raiders of the Lost Ark. 

[Skynin]

Shadows of the dead's big problem was that it shouldn't have been an ultimate.  It's thematically appropriate, but it's a tier 2 or 3 skill tops.  Bringing back enemies who were weak enough that you could kill them without using your ultimate simply isn't an ultimate class ability.  You've already established that those enemies were weak by killing them.  We aren't talking about something that belongs in the Nuke class. 

 

Much better to kick it down to the lower tiers where it belongs and replace it with something better.  Summoning the grim reaper, or a swarm of giant flaming skulls, or those death-head angel things from Raiders of the Lost Ark. 

4th ability is not necessary a Nuke. SotD has great CC usability and even more potential (i've been in T3 Defense with Nerkos instead of frost, i know what i'm talking about). Just this thing is broken as hell, especially AI.

[Phatose]

What are we comparing it to though?  The issue I see is that in any situation where SotD would be really useful, Nyx's Chaos would be even more useful, since it takes living enemies out of the fight while making them targets for each other. - and it's only a rank 3. 

[Archwizard]

The issue I see is that in any situation where SotD would be really useful, Nyx's Chaos would be even more useful, since it takes living enemies out of the fight while making them targets for each other. - and it's only a rank 3. 

 

Hence why they should give Nekros a "focus THIS enemy I'm staring at" command, and leave Chaos as-is.

Suddenly it turns from Chaos-knockoff into a firing squad, or battalion.

[Phatose]

But it doesn't.  That's the thing.  We've all been under fire while in a room by ourselves with a bunch of the cannon fodder.  It happens all the time.  It's clearly not a very big threat - or you wouldn't have been able to kill them in the first place.  That focus fire firing squad demonstrated it's lack of effectiveness when it failed to kill us.

 

That's why bringing back the things you just killed is typically a low level ability for Necromancers.  Elder Scrolls does it that way, D&D had animate dead at like level 2, and even Diablo 2 with it's whole "Necromancer actually means zookeeper"  interpretation didn't try to pass off bringing back hordes of cannon fodder as a super ability.

 

Necromancers get really scary when they're bringing back something that isn't cannon fodder like Dracoliches or ancient dead warriors, summoning incorporeal life draining ghosts or vampires who can hypnotize you with a gaze.  Or turning into a 20 foot tall grim reaper.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Phatose

[Skynin]

Problem is... i personally don't want to play with Nekros as support. He should be more like Volt in my opinion.

[Archwizard]

That's why bringing back the things you just killed is typically a low level ability for Necromancers.  Elder Scrolls does it that way, D&D had animate dead at like level 2, and even Diablo 2 with it's whole "Necromancer actually means zookeeper"  interpretation didn't try to pass off bringing back hordes of cannon fodder as a super ability.

 

Which is why the idea in the OP is that you tag tougher enemies with Necrosis and use Shadows to buffer the legion.

 

Besides, as they get higher up, their damage isn't really all that bad- it's the crappy AI that prevents them from fully exploiting their "invincibility wore off- dead" output.

The advantage of bringing back the things you just killed? They scale with the guys you're probably about to. Can't really say that about "Summon Level 25 Dracolich that can't fit in this room"

Edited February 25, 2014 by Archwizard

[Noble_Cactus]

But it doesn't.  That's the thing.  We've all been under fire while in a room by ourselves with a bunch of the cannon fodder.  It happens all the time.  It's clearly not a very big threat - or you wouldn't have been able to kill them in the first place.  That focus fire firing squad demonstrated it's lack of effectiveness when it failed to kill us.

 

That's why bringing back the things you just killed is typically a low level ability for Necromancers.  Elder Scrolls does it that way, D&D had animate dead at like level 2, and even Diablo 2 with it's whole "Necromancer actually means zookeeper"  interpretation didn't try to pass off bringing back hordes of cannon fodder as a super ability.

 

Necromancers get really scary when they're bringing back something that isn't cannon fodder like Dracoliches or ancient dead warriors, summoning incorporeal life draining ghosts or vampires who can hypnotize you with a gaze.  Or turning into a 20 foot tall grim reaper.

 

Good point, but also remember that enemies are far more tanky than players are at later levels due to scaling, especially Grineer. Toting around a few super beefy Napalms to create a portable wall between you and your enemies that will knock down anything that gets close doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. It already works fairly well currently... when it does happen.

 

I'm not opposed to making it a lower-tier skill to help him become more of a petmaster/zookeeper, though.

 

Also, I second the notion that you should be able to summon your shadows even when they're already out, so you can maintain a full army as often as possible.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Skynin]

Good point, but also remember that enemies are far more tanky than players are at later levels due to scaling, especially Grineer. Toting around a few super beefy Napalms to create a portable wall between you and your enemies that will knock down anything that gets close doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. It already works fairly well currently... when it does happen.

 

I'm not opposed to making it a lower-tier skill to help him become more of a petmaster/zookeeper, though.

 

Also, I second the notion that you should be able to summon your shadows even when they're already out, so you can maintain a full army as often as possible.

Sometimes SotD works like meat counterpart of Snow Globe, because AI too stupid to chase enemies.

[Phatose]

Which is why the idea in the OP is that you tag tougher enemies with Necrosis and use Shadows to buffer the legion.

 

Besides, as they get higher up, their damage isn't really all that bad- it's the crappy AI that prevents them from fully exploiting their "invincibility wore off- dead" output.

The advantage of bringing back the things you just killed? They scale with the guys you're probably about to. Can't really say that about "Summon Level 25 Dracolich that can't fit in this room"

 

Scaling is a sword that cuts both ways.  It also means that when you're facing low level enemies - which actually happens a fair amount - you're SOL. 

 

More problematically, at high levels where scaling should benefit us, it has a big problem.  Enemy damage types and vulnerabilities.  If I bring back a horde of the nasty grineer - bombards, napalms, eviscerators - I'm gonna get an unpleasant surprise, since the other grineer are well defended against fire, blast and slash.  I'm fairly certain both the Corpus and the Infested are in similar place - resistant to their own damage types.

 

Good point, but also remember that enemies are far more tanky than players are at later levels due to scaling, especially Grineer. Toting around a few super beefy Napalms to create a portable wall between you and your enemies that will knock down anything that gets close doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. It already works fairly well currently... when it does happen.

 

I'm not opposed to making it a lower-tier skill to help him become more of a petmaster/zookeeper, though.

 

Also, I second the notion that you should be able to summon your shadows even when they're already out, so you can maintain a full army as often as possible.

 

I'm sure they'll make effective meat shields.  ArchWizard's changes revolve around their offense though, and defensive abilities generally aren't put in the ultimate slot. 

[Archwizard]

More problematically, at high levels where scaling should benefit us, it has a big problem.  Enemy damage types and vulnerabilities.  If I bring back a horde of the nasty grineer - bombards, napalms, eviscerators - I'm gonna get an unpleasant surprise, since the other grineer are well defended against fire, blast and slash.  I'm fairly certain both the Corpus and the Infested are in similar place - resistant to their own damage types.

 

Fire's actually one of the few damage types the Grineer are completely vulnerable to though, plus Blast damage is more effective for its high knockdown over anything else (blame the guys who decided to make it more useful against Rollers). Infested Chargers dish out plenty of Slash, although Corpus are definitely a mixed bag.

 

Really, that's just an innate issue with Damage 2.0 as a whole: there are too many redundant and niche armor types that just make any one damage type equally good and bad against any faction you're facing. Why should Grineer Machines and Corpus Robots be that different? Why should Alloy Armor be that different from Ferrite, or Shields and Proto Shields, or the two Ancient armor types? Do we really need four different kinds of Flesh?

 

(Someone stop me, I'm about to go on an off-topic rant.)

[Noble_Cactus]

Different types of armor makes 'sense' from a lore standpoint because you could think that the Grineer troops who hold higher ranks are given more durable armor (though why Heavy Gunners wouldn't have it, then, doesn't make sense). The 4 different types of flesh thing is utterly stupid, though. Same with how Cloned Flesh interacts with Grineer armor, just more layers obfuscating exactly how armor works.

 

As for Corpus minions, I suppose a lot of them use Puncture weapons, don't they? Having some Drone or Shield Osprey minions could be nice, though.