[Flexibility] Bring All Frames To Nova Tier Without Buffs

[notionphil]

Imagine for a moment, if during MPrime, Nova stayed stationary, channeling energy for a scant 10 seconds after which the effects ended. The same ability which dominates the battlefield would be rendered nearly useless simply by reducing its flexibility.

 

While balance threads are common, they far too frequently miss the core element of combat flexibility; the ability to bring force to bear in a variety of battlefield conditions. I propose that Nova and Vauban are top tier for one simple reason - their combat flexibility.

 

I propose we can drastically increase the effectiveness of Frame's abilities, without buffs by simply removing their inflexibility. Let's see how it works for the Frames I know rather well:

 

 

Volt: a small flexibility change instantly synergizes volts disparate halves. float like a butterfly...

 

Electric Shield: now floats in front of Volt. Press 3 again to deploy it statically at current location.

 

 

Nyx: Goes from a one-trick pony to a psychic dominatrix, with a simple restriction lifted.

 

Absorb: allow Nyx to hover at 50% walking speed during absorb. A second press of 4 detonates

 

Mind Control: casts instantly. Mind Controlled enemy displays a tether linking its mind to NYX (passive way to deter killing it). Delivers full XP to team when killed.

 

 

Banshee: The screaming terror now moves at the speed of sound

 

Silence & Sonar: radius now moves with banshee

 

Sound Quake: casts instantly, quake remains at the location Banshee cast it and she can move freely. Multiple Soundquakes can be cast in succession. Current stagger chance and knockdown chance will need slight reduction.

 

 

Saryn: Removing contrary goals from Saryn's code makes her into a versatile warrior, again.

 

Miasma: Stagger portion is separated from damage portion. Procs stagger once every second for 5 seconds regardless of damage dealt, unaffected by duration mods.

 

Venom: No maximum on number of spores on a target (instead of actual spore stacking, it just adds addl damage and duration when re-infected).

 

Contagion: affects entire squad, a melee symbol or other indicator informs them of the buff

 

 

Nekros: Able to collect souls at his whim and deploy without penalty, he is re-crowned Lord of Dead.

 

Soul Punch: Any enemy hit by soul punch is added to his 'roster' for Shadows of the Dead

 

Shadows of the Dead: Shadows are translucent, and do not block allied fire. Recasting SotD heals his current shadows by 50% and resets duration by 50%

 

 

Ash: simple tweaks help this assassin play well with others

 

Smokescreen: turns nearby allies and Sentinels invisible (attacking makes allies visible again).

 

Bladestorm: affected by weapon speed and can be cancelled by pressing 4 again

 

 

Oberon: knows that slow and steady wins the race; now his powers reflect that

 

Hallowed Ground: when an enemy dies within Hallowed Ground, it grows by 0.5 M in all directions, and its duration resets

 

Renewal: drastically improved speed and turning radius, imparts regen effect on allies with full health as a protective ability.

 

 

 

Frost: That's right, you heard it here first people ;)

 

Snowglobe: Cold damage heals globe's HP.

 

 

 

*suggestions for Ash, Oberon, Volt, frost; hat tip Volt_Cruelerz, Oberon idea inspired by LukeAura

Edited March 4, 2014 by notionphil

[Kethus]

Or nerf Nova, that's more likely to happen.

[S.Fayden]

Well if you want all the frames to be Nova tier, then we would have to make Ash and Valkyr at Nova tier as well.

Which I'm pretty sure is not possible.

 

Anyways, nice ideas for the frames you mentioned.

I really can't stand Nekros' 4, but making the shadows not get in the way might make it tolerable.

It would also be nice to see Saryn's venom brought back to its former glory. That ability used to seriously kick arse and I'd love to see it do so again.

[Archistopheles]

I'm digging your thought process +1

[-Duelist-]

I like how Ash wasn't mentioned. Ash is dead to the community and it's sad.

[avinity8]

Imagine for a moment, if during MPrime, Nova stayed stationary, channeling energy for a scant 10 seconds after which the effects ended. The same ability which dominates the battlefield would be rendered nearly useless simply by reducing its flexibility.

 

While balance threads are common, they far too frequently miss the core element of combat flexibility; the ability to bring force to bear in a variety of battlefield conditions. I propose that Nova and Vauban are top tier for one simple reason - their combat flexibility.

 

I propose we can drastically increase the effectiveness of Frame's abilities, without buffs by simply removing their inflexibility. Let's see how it works for the Frames I know rather well:

 

Nyx: Goes from a one-trick pony to a psychic dominatrix, with a simple restriction lifted.

 

Absorb: allow Nyx to hover at 50% walking speed during absorb. A second press of 4 detonates

.

Mind Control: casts instantly, controlled enemies give nyx and party XP when killed.

 

 

Banshee: The screaming terror now moves at the speed of sound

 

Silence & Sonar: radius now moves with banshee

 

Sound Quake: casts instantly, quake remains at the location Banshee cast it and she can move freely. Multiple Soundquakes can be cast in succession.

 

 

Saryn: Removing contrary goals from Saryn's code makes her into a versatile warrior, again.

 

Miasma: Stagger portion is separated from damage portion. Procs stagger once every second for 5 seconds regardless of damage dealt, unaffected by duration mods.

 

Venom: No maximum on number of spores on a target (instead of actual spore stacking, it just adds addl damage and duration when re-infected).

 

 

Nekros: Able to collect souls at his whim and deploy without penalty, he is re-crowned Lord of Dead.

 

Soul Punch: Any enemy hit by soul punch is added to his 'roster' for Shadows of the Dead

 

Shadows of the Dead: Shadows are translucent, and do not block allied fire.

 

Some I like but others should remain the same. 

 

 1. Absorb - if they allow movement while in Absorb that'd be cool, if not I'm fine with it. There's a bug that allows you to move in it anyway atm and I don't see any significant advantage from it, but again I don't mind it remaining the same.

 

 

2. Sound Quake - should remain stationary. She's exerting the sounds waves from the point of focus, channeling it thru her hands. It's not like with Ember or Frost summoning their elements from their environment.

 

It shouldn't be changed imo.

 

 

 

3. Venom -  I like

 

 

4. Soul Punch - I agree.

 

 

5. Shadows of the Dead - I like and agree. They are just shadows/souls of his vanquished enemies/victims, so I never got why they weren't intangible for allies in the first place

[notionphil]

I like how Ash wasn't mentioned. Ash is dead to the community and it's sad.

 

I only listed fixes for the frames I know well enough that I can see the actual bottlenecks in their ability caused by inflexibility...

[notionphil]

2. Sound Quake - should remain stationary. She's exerting the sounds waves from the point of focus, channeling it thru her hands. It's not like with Ember or Frost summoning their elements from their environment.

 

It shouldn't be changed imo.

 

If we're trying to "lore it"...remember that earthquakes emanate from a single point once a set level of friction is created between tectonic plates.

 

Soundquake - Banshee channels a massive sonic disturbance into the ground, releasing a cacophony of aural tremors as it disseminates.

 

Basically, she spikes a sonic football :)

[Volt_Cruelerz]

As per usual, I support 99% of what you say.  +1

[AllenJayVash]

+1 to most all of this as well.

[avinity8]

If we're trying to "lore it"...remember that earthquakes emanate from a single point once a set level of friction is created between tectonic plates.

 

Soundquake - Banshee channels a massive sonic disturbance into the ground, releasing a cacophony of aural tremors as it disseminates.

 

Basically, she spikes a sonic football :)

 

Except her soundquakes has little to nothing to do with the earth. She simply uses the ground level to disperse her soundwaves across.

 

She doesn't cause actually quakes.

[LukeAura]

Pretty clever fixes.

And you're probably right its flexibility more than anything that determines usage.

I was actually going to make a post similar to this to bring up what we would define as "utility", and why its so easy to compare Warframes but this really is the core of the problem. Warframes tend to be inflexible, compounding this at the end of the day every Warframe tends to do the same thing as the next barring a few tiny niches. So the most flexible ones will always see more use.

It would also explain Rhino's great usage compared to other frames as well.

Edited February 25, 2014 by LukeAura

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Except her soundquakes has little to nothing to do with the earth. She simply uses the ground level to disperse her soundwaves across.

 

She doesn't cause actually quakes.

This is the universe where a muscleman with a lot of anger can stomp the ground so hard that time breaks. Tenno are already space wizard-ninjas, so I don't see the problem with a change like this that would make gameplay better.

[avinity8]

This is the universe where a muscleman with a lot of anger can stomp the ground so hard that time breaks. Tenno are already space wizard-ninjas, so I don't see the problem with a change like this that would make gameplay better.

Doesnt help the argument. DE has seem to try and not pull another Rhino stomp move with new frames.

[notionphil]

Doesnt help the argument. DE has seem to try and not pull another Rhino stomp move with new frames.

 

are you suggesting this would make the ability too powerful? or that you don't like the similarity?

 

I might agree that a slight down-tweak in liklihood of stagger might be useful if this change were made. If you haven't used Banshee in a while, it now uses blast proc, not 100%, and definitely doesn't result in the knockdown fest pre D2.0.

[notionphil]

Pretty clever fixes.

And you're probably right its flexibility more than anything that determines usage.

I was actually going to make a post similar to this to bring up what we would define as "utility", and why its so easy to compare Warframes but this really is the core of the problem. Warframes tend to be inflexible, compounding this at the end of the day every Warframe tends to do the same thing as the next barring a few tiny niches. So the most flexible ones will always see more use.

It would also explain Rhino's great usage compared to other frames as well.

 

Agreed. I thought about this for a while...and realized that if you just read the power descriptions and not look at the in game usage...pretty much every ability sounds awesome.

 

It's the little limiting quirks that turn those amazing concepts into solely situational (or nearly useless) flubs. Whereas most of the awesome powers, even if not 'numerically powerful' grant a lot of flexibility.

[avinity8]

are you suggesting this would make the ability too powerful? or that you don't like the similarity?

 

I might agree that a slight down-tweak in liklihood of stagger might be useful if this change were made. If you haven't used Banshee in a while, it now uses blast proc, not 100%, and definitely doesn't result in the knockdown fest pre D2.0.

 

 

Neither, has to deal with immersing me into it. Which so far with visual effects that have with Soundquake. I haven't played her since Dmg 2.0,didn't know she was blast now, which is dumb. If anything Radiation should've been her element,out of all the ones present. Or she could have just been phy dmg (impact, puncture, slash).

 

I haven't played Rhino since maxing him. Nothing against him but I dnt care for the frame. The time suspension of Stomp is a bit much imo, it should just be a quick knockdown.

 

Watching Banshee channel the sonic waves across the ground is very lovely to see. We don't need more ult spamming frames. Glad Birdie can't spam her tornadoes either.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I'm happy with the things I've initially touched on. And the things that's I'm not and agreed on with you that could be changed I mentioned.

[LukeAura]

Agreed. I thought about this for a while...and realized that if you just read the power descriptions and not look at the in game usage...pretty much every ability sounds awesome.

 

It's the little limiting quirks that turn those amazing concepts into solely situational (or nearly useless) flubs. Whereas most of the awesome powers, even if not 'numerically powerful' grant a lot of flexibility.

Yes exactly. 90% of abilities are pretty much exactly the same as another. The only difference is a little bit of window dressing. 

Even if we were to just simply diversify our delivery methods it might be better. 

Why are the overwhelming majority of abilities an AoE taking up half or a whole of a circle centered around the caster's casting location? I mean, yeah, circles are pretty efficient shapes But next to no warframe is putting AoE circles at distances, or around enemies? I don't think any Warframe casts an ability that has an AoE effect around allies. Travelling over time like Tornadoes is a good start. Anything that adds a little chaos and actual uniqueness to its effect. 

 

 

[LordMidnightX]

I think we need to look at volt, they changed it so he doesn't have to hang up there and get killed for the duration of his ability which was great.

 

Also with vauban why is he able to have multiple ults and abilities running at the same time but frames like nyx and banshee can't recast until theirs have run out. Don't tell me this will make them to OP (at least not in banshees case nyx that could recast chaos anytime would be more OP then she already is) Reduces banshees range and let her cast as many as she can

 

Also silence and sonor should have a duration and be an area around banshee during that duration. 

[notionphil]

Yes exactly. 90% of abilities are pretty much exactly the same as another. The only difference is a little bit of window dressing. 

Even if we were to just simply diversify our delivery methods it might be better. 

Why are the overwhelming majority of abilities an AoE taking up half or a whole of a circle centered around the caster's casting location? I mean, yeah, circles are pretty efficient shapes But next to no warframe is putting AoE circles at distances, or around enemies? I don't think any Warframe casts an ability that has an AoE effect around allies. Travelling over time like Tornadoes is a good start. Anything that adds a little chaos and actual uniqueness to its effect. 

 

 

Agreed again.

 

There are a finite number of things to do to targets.... We need more delivery methods to do those things. DE just needs to remember that they need to be deliverable in a way that is flexible to adapt to combat situations - unless the power of the ability is so overwhelming that it should be relegated to niche situations or skilled play.

 

AM drop is a good example.

[LukeAura]

Agreed again.

 

There are a finite number of things to do to targets.... We need more delivery methods to do those things. DE just needs to remember that they need to be deliverable in a way that is flexible to adapt to combat situations - unless the power of the ability is so overwhelming that it should be relegated to niche situations or skilled play.

 

AM drop is a good example.

AMD is a pretty good example. Tornado. List starts thinning out from here. 

It's a matter of creativity vs. efficiency and flexibility it seems. 

When DE's being more creative with an ability, they're forgetting efficiency and flexibility. Hysteria, Silence. Very unique abilities but are so limited they're not fun, and useless respectively. 

When they're being more efficient, they're forgetting all about creativity. All AoE-nuke ults. Very boring abilities that all do the same thing, but are overly effective at clearing out missions. 

Rarely do they get all three in to one skill. 

 

Edited February 25, 2014 by LukeAura

[Cyrionn]

Actually what you say does make sense (except 10 seconds channeling on Nova, you would just forget about MPrime but I get it was an exemple^^), at least for the four frames you named it's a simple and very effective fix.

 

I'm praying for the possibility to move when channeling Absorb for a long time, that would really be awesome. With that Nyx would definitely be my beloved goddess...well she is already in fact. :3

[Stefanovich]

Ash:

 

Summons 2-3 smoke clones of Ash to do the stabbing themselves while the player is free to revive teammates, run past the enemies, or fight along with the Blade Storming clones.

[fatpig84]

I consider Nova weaker than Vauban and Nyx though.

We should buff more frames to their tier.

 

Any frame that can absolutely negate enemy control is basically God Tier.

We want more frames like that :o

 

 

Loki although my fave, is in fact lower tier than them, but he combos hilariously well with both of them (rd+vortex = award winning combo for example).

Edited February 26, 2014 by fatpig84

[Cyrionn]

I consider Nova weaker than Vauban and Nyx though.

We should buff more frames to their tier.

 

Any frame that can absolutely negate enemy control is basically God Tier.

We want more frames like that :o

 

 

Loki although my fave, is in fact lower tier than them, but he combos hilariously well with both of them (rd+vortex = award winning combo for example).

That's the feeling I have too, even if Nova got AMD and MPrime I just can't find her more utility than them, got to train using AMD better though.

 

And about Valkyr, I think we can't say anything until the animation rework of Hysteria is out except that it shouldn't have any link to your melee weapon stats.