How Would You Balance Trinity?

[Volt_Cruelerz]

? I'm saying other frames that don't like trinity's blessing on them, then reduce trinity's blessing on other frames but keep the current blessing on trinity.

And for trinity that don't like invincible, just remove your mods then you basically nerf yourself

And people that like trinity the way she is then there ya go. 

There is no such thing as permanently invincible. 

If I may though, how does it help her to be invulnerable so much?  Wouldn't it promote more diverse/skilled play if she was mortal?

[-CM-Sean]

and once you get to that point, difficulty stops being a thing.

you can say that about any game. "Once you master a skill difficulty stops being a thing". This does not warrant a Nerf. There isn't an infinite amount of things you can rank your skill/mod/frame to.

[-CM-Syein]

If I may though, how does it help her to be invulnerable so much?  Wouldn't it promote more diverse/skilled play if she was mortal?

umm reduce mod on herself help her less invulnerable. All of trinity's skill technically synergies with each other. Also you got the option of playing other frames as well no? 

 

wait ? I don't get your question sry xD...

Edited February 28, 2014 by SElZE

[Volt_Cruelerz]

you can say that about any game. "Once you master a skill difficulty stops being a thing". This does not warrant a Nerf. There isn't an infinite amount of things you can rank your skill/mod/frame to.

I wouldn't exactly call pressing 4 a skill...

[ThePresident777]

If I may though, how does it help her to be invulnerable so much?  Wouldn't it promote more diverse/skilled play if she was mortal?

 

Wouldn't it promote more diverse/skilled play if the enemy fought back?

[Rehero]

Rework her 1 into something less clunky, annoying and redundant.

Rework her link into something that doesn't promote her just standing in an enemies face.

Rework her energy vampire, just make the marked target have a garunteed EXTRA energy orb (ontop of its passive energy orb drop chance).

Take the invincibility off her ult and make it pick up nearby downed allies ontop of the global heal/shield.

 

Edit: I personally would like a targeted shield on her 1. So she can prevent damage

Edited February 28, 2014 by Rehero

[ThePresident777]

I wouldn't exactly call pressing 4 a skill...

 

But it is a game element that people enjoy.

[LazyKnight]

because being permanently invincible isn't fun because there's zero risk? I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you.

At least turbulence has weakness to AoE and can sometime just not do anything for no apparent reasons. I consider with Snow Globes nerf there is no defendable reason why trinity should keep her absolute defense. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Wouldn't it promote more diverse/skilled play if the enemy fought back?

Yes, but I don't see your point here...

 

 

But it is a game element that people enjoy.

Keep in mind that I didn't want to remove it entirely.  I just wanted to shorten the duration so that she can die.  Let her use it to save people.

 

Also, doesn't a frame having self-invulnerability sound, OP?  Rhino thinks so.

[Wiegraf]

seems like it would hurt her ability to solo unnecessarily.

 

It would at least eliminate her godlike ability to survive anything solo at all. Besides, the regeneration would still help her remain alive, atop a flat 20% DR.

[-CM-Syein]

I wouldn't exactly call pressing 4 a skill...

every abilities, whether 1 2 3 4, they are all skill you use in situations. Regardless, eventually you will die anyway in survival/ def endless. 

If 4 is not a skill, neither is 1 2 3. 

invisibility, smoke screen, shield polarize, bastile, iron skin etc are skills that better than 4. 

 

Why do you want to shorten the duration if Trinity doesn't affect you whatsoever in a game? Unless you mean shorten the duration on other's frames instead of Trinity herself. 

Trinity can die, if she stop using EV, then blessing alone won't carry her far. In order to stay invincible, she must use her skill at all time, there is no rest if it were the case for solo. 

Edited February 28, 2014 by SElZE

[TunaMayo]

every abilities, whether 1 2 3 4, they are all skill you use in situations. Regardless, eventually you will die anyway in survival/ def endless. 

If 4 is not a skill, neither is 1 2 3. 

invisibility, smoke screen, shield polarize, bastile, iron skin etc are skills that better than 4. 

 

Why do you want to shorten the duration if Trinity doesn't affect you whatsoever in a game? Unless you mean shorten the duration on other's frames instead of Trinity herself. 

Trinity can die, if she stop using EV, then blessing alone won't carry her far. In order to stay invincible, she must use her skill at all time, there is no rest if it were the case for solo.

I'd like to re-iterate that this call was discussion for balancing trinity as a whole.

There was a point when iron skin and link gave invulnerability. This was deemed too powerful. Using the same logic, is not blessing?

People say that trinity would be ruined should she lose her ability to support the team. Perhaps, this points out that blessing is the crutch to her weak overall kit.

Rhino had his invulnerability stripped, people said it would ruin him. He got one power touched up and another replaced and he is now one of the most powerful frames in the game.

I have no doubt that DE could make Trinity useful without relying on invulnerability as a crutch.

[Dalu__Ka]

At least remove the team wide invulnerability.

[-CM-Syein]

I'd like to re-iterate that this call was discussion for balancing trinity as a whole.

There was a point when iron skin and link gave invulnerability. This was deemed too powerful. Using the same logic, is not blessing?

People say that trinity would be ruined should she lose her ability to support the team. Perhaps, this points out that blessing is the crutch to her weak overall kit.

Rhino had his invulnerability stripped, people said it would ruin him. He got one power touched up and another replaced and he is now one of the most powerful frames in the game.

I have no doubt that DE could make Trinity useful without relying on invulnerability as a crutch.

 

What I said is an answer to cruelerz.

Regarding to Iron skin having no duration, current Rhino is very op at lvl 1-30 but iron skin become semi-useless in anything above that. Which is why it doesn't make sense, duration on iron skin would be a better choice. Just like snowglobe should revert back to duration base. 

 

Scale abilities is what make this game more fun. 

Do you more satisfied finish a 2 hours survival run or more satisfied doing 15min run? 

Do you enjoy getting kill because your abilities ran out of limit or enjoy getting kill because enemies hitting you too hard? 

Yes, Rhino had stomp to compensate for iron skin in higher lvl, what do you say about Trinity then? She have no crowd control ability for that. 

 

Yes, this discussion is about Trinity as a whole. So for Trinity user, if you deem trinity too powerful, why doesn't you just take away her mods? 

For player that is not trinity, if you deem trinity too powerful, why don't you settle with "reduce trinity's blessing on other player but keep the current blessing on trinity"? 

 

Yes trinity is a support role, which is why any frames in the run is better than trinity, because trinity's power affect them but their power doesn't affect trinity. That exactly why not many players main trinity. An ember can be better than trinity if they in the same run as trinity. 

[Rehero]

The issue is she is a support oriented frame whom has the ability to prevent all worry for not only herself but her team. This crosses over the support line and becomes god mode. The HEAL portion of her ult is support, the invulnerability is just over the top and has no risks involved.

 

Now if we look at energy vampire, well of life, and link.

 

Link is supposed to negate damage to counteract the fact that she is a squishy frame but her ult takes care of that. So in reality this skill is redundant and is only really useful to provide anti cc and exploited for free damage.

 

Well of life shouldn't ever be used since her ult prevents people from going down anyways so all this does is make an enemy tankier which is just annoying.

 

Energy vampire is cool and probably has uses but is replaceable by energy siphon as such could use a few tweaks especially since most of the time you don't see its full use since people just kill the mob anyways.

 

 

So her ult negates the intended use of 2 of her abilities (one of which just becomes exploitatious) and her last ability is niche to say the least. So why are people considering her ult healthy for her kit?

 

Edit: Also this talk of her soloing. Why is this even a point she is a support frame. Balance for a SUPPORT frame should be team oriented not solo oriented.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Rehero

[ProteinPannkaka]

Yes, this discussion is about Trinity as a whole. So for Trinity user, if you deem trinity too powerful, why doesn't you just take away her mods? 

For player that is not trinity, if you deem trinity too powerful, why don't you settle with "reduce trinity's blessing on other player but keep the current blessing on trinity"? 

Which is why the topic is about how to balance Trinity, not how to nerf Blessing. The other abilities should change to make up for the loss of invulnerability to make her still viable at higher levels. Just in a way that requires a bit more strategy.

[TunaMayo]

What I said is an answer to cruelerz.

Regarding to Iron skin having no duration, current Rhino is very op at lvl 1-30 but iron skin become semi-useless in anything above that. Which is why it doesn't make sense, duration on iron skin would be a better choice. Just like snowglobe should revert back to duration base. 

 

Scale abilities is what make this game more fun. 

Do you more satisfied finish a 2 hours survival run or more satisfied doing 15min run? 

Do you enjoy getting kill because your abilities ran out of limit or enjoy getting kill because enemies hitting you too hard? 

Yes, Rhino had stomp to compensate for iron skin in higher lvl, what do you say about Trinity then? She have no crowd control ability for that. 

 

Yes, this discussion is about Trinity as a whole. So for Trinity user, if you deem trinity too powerful, why doesn't you just take away her mods? 

For player that is not trinity, if you deem trinity too powerful, why don't you settle with "reduce trinity's blessing on other player but keep the current blessing on trinity"? 

 

Yes trinity is a support role, which is why any frames in the run is better than trinity, because trinity's power affect them but their power doesn't affect trinity. That exactly why not many players main trinity. An ember can be better than trinity if they in the same run as trinity.

Iron skin is bad for tanking late game, yes. But I use all warframes late game, and not all of them have iron skin. So I have developed away of staying alive without iron skin. Therefore when using this method lategame with rhino, I am still unstoppable as I cannot be knocked down whilst my skin is up.

A cap on snowglobe is questionnable as it cannot move to dodge damage, but that is for another topic.

What I enjoy is challenging content, be it 15 minutes long or 2 hours long. Said content is hard enough to find in warframe.

But wether an enemy is lvl 10, or lvl 100, trinity can stop them damaging you for extended period of time. Making the content less challenging and simply time consuming.

Blessing is easy mode, as iron skin, link and overheat were. Saying "don't put mods on" if you don't like it is worse than players saying "if you don't like it, don't play it" in regards to broken content. It's a ludicrous argument that is simply attempting to circumvent the discussion over something brokwn in the game.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

What I said is an answer to cruelerz.

Regarding to Iron skin having no duration, current Rhino is very op at lvl 1-30 but iron skin become semi-useless in anything above that. Which is why it doesn't make sense, duration on iron skin would be a better choice. Just like snowglobe should revert back to duration base. 

 

Scale abilities is what make this game more fun. 

Do you more satisfied finish a 2 hours survival run or more satisfied doing 15min run? 

Do you enjoy getting kill because your abilities ran out of limit or enjoy getting kill because enemies hitting you too hard? 

Yes, Rhino had stomp to compensate for iron skin in higher lvl, what do you say about Trinity then? She have no crowd control ability for that. 

 

Yes, this discussion is about Trinity as a whole. So for Trinity user, if you deem trinity too powerful, why doesn't you just take away her mods? 

For player that is not trinity, if you deem trinity too powerful, why don't you settle with "reduce trinity's blessing on other player but keep the current blessing on trinity"? 

 

Yes trinity is a support role, which is why any frames in the run is better than trinity, because trinity's power affect them but their power doesn't affect trinity. That exactly why not many players main trinity. An ember can be better than trinity if they in the same run as trinity. 

Your reasoning relies on the current state of lack of balance where the only semblance of challenge arises when enemies can one-shot you, forcing you to rely on exploits to win.  I think such states of gameplay are bad and should be removed, which is why I do not even consider them relevant to the discussion.

 

Given that I play primarily as Volt and survive just fine on T3 missions.  Rhino is even easier, as Tuna mentioned.  I think the SG nerf went too far and I think it needs a way for players to heal it.  Personally, I advocate a rather complicated solution, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

 

As a player, it seems inherently wrong not to play a frame to the best of its ability.  Maybe it's just the min-maxer in me, but if the power's there, I'm going to use it.  The thing is though, that power is OP.  It's not good for the game's health for her to have such a powerful ability.  I'm fine with it giving brief invulnerability for clutch saves from enemy attacks (yay teamwork!), but I don't think it should give extended invincibility as it does now.

 

If you're so concerned with Trinity overall, shouldn't you be concerned with spreading out her power so that she's more than just a god-mode-inducing support?  Wouldn't that be better?  One spectacular ability does not a good frame make.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[EChondo]

Fix her lobster tail.

 

There's nothing to "balance". Trinity is fine as is.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Fix her lobster tail.

 

There's nothing to "balance". Trinity is fine as is.

Personally, I like the lobster tail.

 

And just to clarify, you would agree with the following statements then?

 

1. Well of Life is not redundant with Blessing.

2. Energy Vampire does not have usability problems related to teammates killing the target.

3. Link is fine.

4. God-mode is fine.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[-CM-Syein]

Iron skin is bad for tanking late game, yes. But I use all warframes late game, and not all of them have iron skin. So I have developed away of staying alive without iron skin. Therefore when using this method lategame with rhino, I am still unstoppable as I cannot be knocked down whilst my skin is up.

A cap on snowglobe is questionnable as it cannot move to dodge damage, but that is for another topic.

What I enjoy is challenging content, be it 15 minutes long or 2 hours long. Said content is hard enough to find in warframe.

But wether an enemy is lvl 10, or lvl 100, trinity can stop them damaging you for extended period of time. Making the content less challenging and simply time consuming.

Blessing is easy mode, as iron skin, link and overheat were. Saying "don't put mods on" if you don't like it is worse than players saying "if you don't like it, don't play it" in regards to broken content. It's a ludicrous argument that is simply attempting to circumvent the discussion over something brokwn in the game.

Which is why I said reduce effect of blessing on other frames but keep the current blessing on trinity.

Regarding the last paragraph, how is it a ludicrous argument if:

1) you don't consider other trinity players who are fine with the current trinity 

2) Trinity is underplay, that's a fact. I already point out one of the reason why, that any frames who in the same run with trinity is better than trinity. Therefore she still a support frame. 

3) With the change in #1, Trinity doesn't affect your gameplay or whatsoever, whether if it's easy mode to you or not there are other players who use her in a more higher lvl, and it's no longer easy mode for them. You have a choice whether to play trinity or not. 

 

Your reasoning relies on the current state of lack of balance where the only semblance of challenge arises when enemies can one-shot you, forcing you to rely on exploits to win.  I think such states of gameplay are bad and should be removed, which is why I do not even consider them relevant to the discussion.

 

As a player, it seems inherently wrong not to play a frame to the best of its ability.  Maybe it's just the min-maxer in me, but if the power's there, I'm going to use it.  The thing is though, that power is OP.  It's not good for the game's health for her to have such a powerful ability.  I'm fine with it giving brief invulnerability for clutch saves from enemy attacks (yay teamwork!), but I don't think it should give extended invincibility as it does now.

 

If you're so concerned with Trinity overall, shouldn't you be concerned with spreading out her power so that she's more than just a god-mode-inducing support?  Wouldn't that be better?  One spectacular ability does not a good frame make.

The first one is opinion base "I think" so I won't get anywhere near that. 

 

2nd paragraph. Remove that mod on your trinity. Her power basically work the same as invisibility but with higher energy cost, less duration, but able to regain health + affect the whole team. My suggestion is reduce the affecting the whole team. 

 

Base on what you said, anything with duration should be remove in game then? As currently, hysteria, smoke screen, invisibility, bastle, etc all have that. Yet not many people touch them, because their power currently doesn't affect other player much compare to trinity. 

 

You haven't suggest any compensation for trinity with nerf blessing. So I can't really find any agreement here. 

Edited February 28, 2014 by SElZE

[Rehero]

Fix her lobster tail.

 

There's nothing to "balance". Trinity is fine as is.

Yea ok:

Blessing

• Maximized Power Duration increases duration to 28.2 seconds.
  • Has no negative effect on this ability.

[ThePresident777]

Yes, but I don't see your point here...

All these nerfs exist in a bubble and they are a waste of an opportunity to improve the enemy.  There is no sense in the enemy having a counter to these abilities if they don't exist.  A lot of mention was made about this when snow globe was nerfed.

 

 

Keep in mind that I didn't want to remove it entirely.  I just wanted to shorten the duration so that she can die.  Let her use it to save people.

 

 

People enjoy using as it is and what you want can be done volutarily. 

 

 

Also, doesn't a frame having self-invulnerability sound, OP?  Rhino thinks so.

 

Not to me.  My gaming experience hasn't been hurt by it in the least.  This sounds more like a conceptual problem than an actual problem.

Edited February 28, 2014 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

 

Yea ok:

Blessing

• Maximized Power Duration increases duration to 28.2 seconds.
  • Has no negative effect on this ability.

 

 

You don't get that without mods.  So, the issue is clearly the mods.

[-CM-Syein]

 

Yea ok:

Blessing

• Maximized Power Duration increases duration to 28.2 seconds.
  • Has no negative effect on this ability.

 

ahem:

 

Invisibility 

• Maximized Power Duration increases the duration to 30.8 seconds.
  • Has no negative effect on this ability.  

Hysteria

• Maximized Power Duration increases duration to 77.1 seconds (1 minute and 17.1 seconds.
  • Has no negative effect on this ability.

 

If this is what you want to argue then I could list tons of other frames in that case.