How Would You Balance Trinity?

[TunaMayo]

I'd be concerned about Aura of Regeneration just being a better/worse version of Renewal.

That's the only thing I couldn't work out, a new support skill that isn't health or energy based. So just went with that.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

That's the only thing I couldn't work out, a new support skill that isn't health or energy based. So just went with that.

there's always status protection and steroids.

[.Talia.]

Why you guys wanna nerf Trinity? 

Did she ever did something on your group that upset you?

Does she wipe out entire waves with the press of a button?

 

All she does is keeping the team alive, and still you guys are crying for a nerf. You guys realize this game is co-op.
 

Its a good thing to have a Trinity on the group

[TunaMayo]

Why you guys wanna nerf Trinity? 

Did she ever did something on your group that upset you?

Does she wipe out entire waves with the press of a button?

 

All she does is keeping the team alive, and still you guys are crying for a nerf. You guys realize this game is co-op.

 

Its a good thing to have a Trinity on the group

 

I might have to edit the OP to put this in capitals....

 

This isn't a call for a nerf, but a call for balance. I personally, and other people have also spoken up, want Trinity to be more than a Godmode frame. I want Blessing to be balanced to a useful level (nerfed if you will), but ONLY if the rest of her kit is retouched so that she is still just as useful a support to the team, but used for more than just Blessing.

[ThePresident777]

Might not have to change blessing entirely, just tone it down and rejig her other three skills to spread the balance.

We know there are other things in the game that need work, but this post is just about Trinity.

 

It would be a mistake to think these are isolated issues.  There is a difference between having awesome abilities and having slight abilities.  There is a difference when the enemy has a means to fight awesome abilities.  But, if the Tenno are not awesome, then how can the enemy respond in kind?  Warframe is unique in this regard.  Taking this away puts Warframe in the same situation as other games and you'll get the same old tired results.  I think it's better to work with it than throw it away.  I think it's better to give the enemy a means to fight because it then gives the Tenno something to fight in return.  That would be the action approach to dealing with this which is what you want in an action game.

Edited March 1, 2014 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

I might have to edit the OP to put this in capitals....

 

This isn't a call for a nerf, but a call for balance. I personally, and other people have also spoken up, want Trinity to be more than a Godmode frame. I want Blessing to be balanced to a useful level (nerfed if you will), but ONLY if the rest of her kit is retouched so that she is still just as useful a support to the team, but used for more than just Blessing.

 

I don't find the proposed approach interesting.  I'd rather see the enemy do something interesting in response to the Tenno than to make the Tenno less inherently spectacular.

[TunaMayo]

I don't find the proposed approach interesting.  I'd rather see the enemy do something interesting in response to the Tenno than to make the Tenno less inherently spectacular.

What you're asking for is smarter AI, which is something everyone wants aswell.

But what I am asking for is an unbalanced frame to become balanced.

They're is little opposition of I was to say 80% of Trinitys usefulness comes from the invincibility.

Wouldn't you rather that we had a frame that could support, rather than just give godmode?

[ThePresident777]

What you're asking for is smarter AI, which is something everyone wants aswell.

But what I am asking for is an unbalanced frame to become balanced.

They're is little opposition of I was to say 80% of Trinitys usefulness comes from the invincibility.

Wouldn't you rather that we had a frame that could support, rather than just give godmode?

 

I'm fine with Godmode.  I don't care for "game design" or "balance".

 

What I would rather have is the enemy do something about it rather than DE nerf it.  Then, I want to attack the enemy's toys.  The parts of the game do not exist in isolation.

Edited March 2, 2014 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

So Tuna, what exactly are you thinking she needs if you were to take a stab at it?  (My apologies if you have already and I've forgotten.)

 

 

Changing it to something that doesn't break the game and is still useful in a variety of situations does give a player options.

 

I don't think it breaks the game.

[LazyKnight]

Personally I'd give blessing 5 seconds flat invulnerability not effected by duration to help tenno in a jam, and allow blessing to revive downed teammates.

Why not just have it drop all hate accumulated by NPC, give players the same effect they have during bleed-out and have the NPC ignore them so long as they do nothing hostile.  There are ways to make hate reduction powers to 'save' teammates without having to resort invulnerability. It could still fully heal and this would not stop it from being used as a party support fuction.

 

I am not saying nerf Trinity; in a bunch of RPG games, healers have party buff to have the NPC leave them alone. It could also have the NPC near Trinity left in a state of brief confusion. This way if a player does hostile action it will result in losing the healer protection.

Edited March 2, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I don't think it breaks the game.

It trivializes difficulty.  Isn't that a problem for you?

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

I agree with a tweak on the invincibility thing, but this should come with a tweak to link as well, i don't want trinity to be ruined to the current state most waframes are, like nekros, like excalibur, ember, frost, saryn, ash, banshee, oberon, the list goes on.

Edited March 2, 2014 by (PS4)DanteVincent

[kill3r_furby]

Remove the blessing/link/self damage combo

Remove invulnerability

 

Remove Trinity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*sarcasm*

Edited March 2, 2014 by kill3r_furby

[ThePresident777]

It trivializes difficulty.  Isn't that a problem for you?

 

Not really.  But, I would give the enemy a means to do something about it so then I have something to attack.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Not really.  But, I would give the enemy a means to do something about it so then I have something to attack.

You're asking for better AI.  We all want that.  I don't see how that's relevant.

[Rehero]

I'm fine with Godmode.  I don't care for "game design" or "balance".

 

What I would rather have is the enemy do something about it rather than DE nerf it.  Then, I want to attack the enemy's toys.  The parts of the game do not exist in isolation.

Lets say they did allow enemies the ability to compete with certain tenno capabilities (which I still find cool). This still doesn't change the fact that her ult renders her first ability redundant and mods replace the need for her second. 

 

This isn't "Options" you repeated further up in this thread. It is a single button negating the need for the player to potentially go and press another. This argument is one of the bigger ones in the thread and nothing about this has changed.

 

So IF enemies where modified and trinity no longer had god mode something would still need to be done about her to increase viability of her other abilities.

 

Edit: Also this thread is balance (title). Posting here without care for balance is kind of just upping your post count is it not?

 

Edit2: It has also been mentioned several times in the thread that the point of this discussion is to take power off the ultimate and buff other aspects of the frame. This, while likely to be an overall nerf, would likely put her in a healthier position for gameplay. It would be impractical to buff the other aspects of the frame without taking off bits of her ultimate.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Rehero

[lostinrehab]

Sigh Trinity's blessing being super strong is a symptom of a bigger core problem corrupted mods, aura mods, and forma. Now I'm not saying to do away with forma aura points or corrupted mods but ever since then pretty much every ability that was strong before in the game gained complete game breaker status in some way shape or form.

Honestly the abilities that have reached game breaker status now do so mainly because of forma, corrupted mods, and aura points. Now that said paying players (and those who trade) can drastically reduce the time it takes to achieve game breaking status but I'd wager that even so that may only be 10- 15% of the total warframe population, so do any of these abilities actually need nerfs especially because it generally takes time/monetary investments to achieve game breaker status.

Another thing that needs to be mentioned is that as far as I can tell currently the intended max enemy level is about 40 and anything past that isn't even remotely considered for balancing concerns and the same can be said of frames that get forma'd and or get high level corrupt mods. That stuff is kind of there to sate the extreme end players.

[TunaMayo]

Why not just have it drop all hate accumulated by NPC, give players the same effect they have during bleed-out and have the NPC ignore them so long as they do nothing hostile.  There are ways to make hate reduction powers to 'save' teammates without having to resort invulnerability. It could still fully heal and this would not stop it from being used as a party support fuction.

 

I am not saying nerf Trinity; in a bunch of RPG games, healers have party buff to have the NPC leave them alone. It could also have the NPC near Trinity left in a state of brief confusion. This way if a player does hostile action it will result in losing the healer protection.

Dropping all aggro unless attacking, that sounds something more suited to a stealthy frame, perhaps banshee?

Also currently Trinity thrives in the heat of battle. As much as I don't want God mode, I still want her to be good in the heat of battle.

[Monolake]

I had a thread with proposals how to balance Trinity blessing

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/180548-healers-re-balance-ideas-trinity-oberon-necros/

 

TLDR: hard cap invul duration to 4-5 sec, range limit, for the rest of duration - sustained heal

[LazyKnight]

Dropping all aggro unless attacking, that sounds something more suited to a stealthy frame, perhaps banshee?

Also currently Trinity thrives in the heat of battle. As much as I don't want God mode, I still want her to be good in the heat of battle.

Invulnerability power are simple to balance with cooldowns that are far longer than the effect's duration, but DE is not taking advantage of that method. They would only have to look at Warcraft 3's paladin divine shield. The duration was 45 second but the Cooldown was 65, this prevents the power from being permanently on.

 

I suspect DE will just nerf blessing like they did Iron skin and Snow globe, or a far better example Ember. They just outright removed Ember ability to thrive, let alone survive, in the middle of a battle. It is a very safe bet to assume that if Trinity is messed with it will not be subtle.

 

I do not get if Trinity is supposed to be a healer or a tank, and that the problem. It is always a huge problem in RPGs when the developers make the healers have more survivability than tanks or anything else. DE wouldn't have to look far for example, of how to balance healer in a party.

 

Comparing to Trinity to Oberon show the dilemma. Oberon is a soft easy to kill caster that has the ability to do limited healing. He is a well balanced white-mage, other than his worthless hallowed ground skill. Trinity should either be made into healer or a self-tank, but having such powerful group based protection effects makes NPC irrelevant.

Edited March 2, 2014 by LazyKnight

[DJSmash]

I don't find the proposed approach interesting.  I'd rather see the enemy do something interesting in response to the Tenno than to make the Tenno less inherently spectacular.

 

I too want a more smarter AI - I really do and a better approach to "innovate" the dumb AI which has existed since u7.

But what can a HORDE of smart AI do against a team which is in "god mode" status for nearly the entire duration of a game? 

 

From my point of view, this can be said as an abuse but some may call it as "perfect build" regardless of what you wish to call it, that's a clear sign of the undesired affect of corrputed mods/forma usage. in other words, "unbalance".

 

What OP is trying to achieve is to engage with the community for some ideas/suggestion on how to imrprove@re-balance trinity as a whole again.

Does that frighten the community? or would you rather have DE shove "push" their ideas to you without any form of discussion/feedback BEFORE they implement the changes?

 

Would you like me to refresh the community's memory since 2013 on the sort of "approach" DE has taken to implement these changes?

 

You pick.

 

 

Sigh Trinity's blessing being super strong is a symptom of a bigger core problem corrupted mods, aura mods, and forma. Now I'm not saying to do away with forma aura points or corrupted mods but ever since then pretty much every ability that was strong before in the game gained complete game breaker status in some way shape or form.

Honestly the abilities that have reached game breaker status now do so mainly because of forma, corrupted mods, and aura points. Now that said paying players (and those who trade) can drastically reduce the time it takes to achieve game breaking status but I'd wager that even so that may only be 10- 15% of the total warframe population, so do any of these abilities actually need nerfs especially because it generally takes time/monetary investments to achieve game breaker status.

Another thing that needs to be mentioned is that as far as I can tell currently the intended max enemy level is about 40 and anything past that isn't even remotely considered for balancing concerns and the same can be said of frames that get forma'd and or get high level corrupt mods. That stuff is kind of there to sate the extreme end players.

+1 I agree. Once again here's another post that highlights the current issue of the core mechanics of this beta product.

 

So as of now, the reader@community have 2 choice in your hands:

1) you either engage in this posting which can benefit Trinity in time to come OR

2) you let DE decide Trinity's fate.

[(PSN)friedricetheman]

What about rebalancing the enemy AI to be smarter. Using cover, flanking, popping a stun grenade or when they see a rhino stomp coming, run the other direction instead of into it.

A lot of problems could be solved with improving the AI on enemies and Nekros' dimwit resurrected buddies.

As of now, the dumb AI do stupid things like:

1) running towards Rhino when he stomps. I pity Alad V for having stupid henchmen who would run headlong into a stunlock.

2) not using cover when I shoot at them. Instead, they would, again, run towards me, most of the time, just so I could pump their face full of lead.

3) attacking the player that has the most health and shields instead of concentrating their fire on the weakest link. I see this all the time. Valkyr goes on Hysteria and all the dudes in the area instantly start to whale on her. It seems like they have a death wish or something..

4) preprogrammed moves for bosses. Alad V always stands in full view at the back of the room, waiting to be shot at. Sargas Ruk will always do his flame thrower thingy and go through the motions. They always perform the same actions every single time. After awhile you will always know what he will do next and plan accordingly.

5) fusion moas, and corrupted heavy gunners who will shoot at the pod protected by a snow globe from outside (pre U12) instead of going inside the snow globe and shoot at the pod.

6) enemies running into death orbs shooting Lasers and dying from it.... on T3 void extermination (oh look 5 heavy gunners just killed themselves by standing in front of the lasers. Looks like we don't have to waste gazillion bullets killing them).

And many more dumb AI moments.

Fix the awful AI and you won't see any of these nerf threads popping up.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Fix the awful AI and you won't see any of these nerf threads popping up.

So.. are you asking for the AI to be so good we're forced to use Blessing?  That just seems even more broken.

[TunaMayo]

What about rebalancing the enemy AI to be smarter. Using cover, flanking, popping a stun grenade or when they see a rhino stomp coming, run the other direction instead of into it.

A lot of problems could be solved with improving the AI on enemies and Nekros' dimwit resurrected buddies.

As of now, the dumb AI do stupid things like:

1) running towards Rhino when he stomps. I pity Alad V for having stupid henchmen who would run headlong into a stunlock.

2) not using cover when I shoot at them. Instead, they would, again, run towards me, most of the time, just so I could pump their face full of lead.

3) attacking the player that has the most health and shields instead of concentrating their fire on the weakest link. I see this all the time. Valkyr goes on Hysteria and all the dudes in the area instantly start to whale on her. It seems like they have a death wish or something..

4) preprogrammed moves for bosses. Alad V always stands in full view at the back of the room, waiting to be shot at. Sargas Ruk will always do his flame thrower thingy and go through the motions. They always perform the same actions every single time. After awhile you will always know what he will do next and plan accordingly.

5) fusion moas, and corrupted heavy gunners who will shoot at the pod protected by a snow globe from outside (pre U12) instead of going inside the snow globe and shoot at the pod.

6) enemies running into death orbs shooting Lasers and dying from it.... on T3 void extermination (oh look 5 heavy gunners just killed themselves by standing in front of the lasers. Looks like we don't have to waste gazillion bullets killing them).

And many more dumb AI moments.

Fix the awful AI and you won't see any of these nerf threads popping up.

 

We know that AI is an issue, this thread is solely about Trinity.

 

No matter how smart the AI get, they will never be able to get around the fact that Trinity can make the whole team immune to damage.

 

Unless you start adding in enemies that have the ability to cancel Tenno powers (like the stalker) to counteract Trinity.

 

But then you cause the bigger issue that you would be endangering the usefulness of ALL FRAMES for the sake of saving the effort to balance ONE FRAME. Not to mention that it would take all uniqueness out of the stalker.

 

It would be much simpler to make Trinity useful without the need for godmode.

[GTG3000]

I know I'm a bit late to the party... But this is how I'd balance her - 

 

WoL - Simple AoE healing pulse for 10-15 power, gives a quick, but weak heal and allows for continuous recasting. Starts shield regeneration immediately.

 

If used with Link, healing effect is increaced for 25% per linked enemy.

 

EV - power based on Trinity's damage dealt. Gives up to four pulses, with certain thresholds of damage triggering the pulses.

 

Used with link, counts damage dealt to linked enemies as well, staggers linked enemies when either of them receives damage.

 

Link - Short range, not affected by range mods, links up to four enemies at once, giving Trinity immunity to damage and stagger. spreads 25% of damage received to each enemy (maybe even better if no damage and only procs/cc).

 

Blessing - AoE, cast from range. Creates a circle at the location, pointed by crosshair, rising up any downed friendlies in there and providing fast health and shield regen for the ability duration, making it impossible for the risen players to be downed again (can't go below 1 health). Provides boost to Link, spreading 100% of damage any linked enemy or Trinity is receiving to the rest of the linked enemies. After the effect is over, ability goes into cooldown for the same time as it's duration.

 

Yeah, my ideas suck, I know.