Is De Relying Too Much On Powercreep To Hold Interest/sell Weapons?

[Won_Doe]

I'm sure by now we all know the powercreep in this game is very real. As the months pass by, more and more weapons are being severely out-classed and being left in the dust with no buffs in sight.

 

Aside from weapons like the Phage/Jat, it feels that weapon design itself has become ridiculously stagnant. I feel like there's been an overuse of AK weapons (why do the Stilletos exist again?) with some very uninspiring gun mechanics.

 

I understand that DE isn't exactly up there in terms of production quality, and the game is F2P after all, but at this point seems like they're mostly using high numbers as a selling point now.

[VKhaun]

I hope so.

 

Every online game changes and frankly I laugh at anyone who spends money because something is OP today, in a game that sees such active development and drastic changes so regularly. A fool and his money are soon parted. I'm fine with DE being the recipient.

[JohnProdman]

Weapons do not all need to be equal.

[Won_Doe]

Weapons do not all need to be equal.

 

But when you take away the high and low numbers, TONS of weapons in the game essentially function the very same. I'm not sure if you understood what I was getting at...

[Luminati07]

weapon design itself has become ridiculously stagnant.

Weapon design has been stagnant for most of Warframe's life.

 

I think my last count of weapons on the wiki was something like...110 or so.

Out of those, maybe 15 tops could be considered unique. The rest are as boring and as generic as they come.

 

One of the main reasons why my enjoyment in Warframe has been on a steady decline (along with a myriad of other problems)

Here's a thread I made a while back on the topic of gun variety https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/144108-weapons-20-overhauling-the-boring-and-generic-gunplay-of-warframe/

[IIJetfireII]

Powercreep....

 

 

Megatron.....why you...

[VKhaun]

Disagree with the idea that the weapons are boring / stagnant.

I'm Rank 15 and actually used most of my weapons to level them. They all feel somewhat different. I think the 'boring / stagnant' feeling comes from the low skill cap, where many players are just shooting center mass and stacking damage. Interesting weapon aesthetics and operations have keep my attention very well.

There are exceptions of course. Tetra frustrated me because Dera is my most used, and Tetra became pretty much a straight up better version when they buffed it shortly after it was put in. The original Tetra implementation felt really really good to me and I was disappointed to see them do that.

Edited March 9, 2014 by VKhaun

[Magister_Zel]

Man if i see one more post about old weapons not being able to keep up with the new stuff i'm gonna pop a vessel.

My very first weapon "MK-1 Braton" has a cat, 6 forma and is very specifically modded so doing 30 waves on T3 is no problem.

Certain modding can get what you want based on enemy type weakness as well so come on.

[leonvision]

tbh, DE never should have committed to a weapon a week, which is partly the reason why some weapons seems very similar to one another. also DE doesnt seem to spend enough time looking at the stats of a weapon before releasing them, mistakes in stats are too frequent. look at how marelok is stronger than grinlok in everyway (except accuracy), look at how akmagnus somehow got released doing double the damage per shot. look at how when strun wraith first came out, it had WAY too much crit chance.

[Won_Doe]

Weapon design has been stagnant for most of Warframe's life.

 

I think my last count of weapons on the wiki was something like...110 or so.

Out of those, maybe 15 tops could be considered unique. The rest are as boring and as generic as they come.

 

One of the main reasons why my enjoyment in Warframe has been on a steady decline (along with a myriad of other problems)

Here's a thread I made a while back on the topic of gun variety https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/144108-weapons-20-overhauling-the-boring-and-generic-gunplay-of-warframe/

 

I'm glad someone understands this.

 

I thought the Phage/Penta/Drakgoon/Stugg were among the few that broke away from the norm, but for the most part were indeed getting what feels like "reskins", especially with the Castanas.

 

Unfortunately I just don't think this is one of those things that'll see any major change. We get weekly updates, and all we can hope for is an awesome batch of weapons to hold our interest a little longer.

 

 

Man if i see one more post about old weapons not being able to keep up with the new stuff i'm gonna pop a vessel.

My very first weapon "MK-1 Braton" has a cat, 6 forma and is very specifically modded so doing 30 waves on T3 is no problem.

Certain modding can get what you want based on enemy type weakness as well so come on.

 

This is mostly about cosmetics and weapon mechanics, and the lack of it.

 

 

tbh, DE never should have committed to a weapon a week, which is partly the reason why some weapons seems very similar to one another. also DE doesnt seem to spend enough time looking at the stats of a weapon before releasing them, mistakes in stats are too frequent. look at how marelok is stronger than grinlok in everyway (except accuracy), look at how akmagnus somehow got released doing double the damage per shot. look at how when strun wraith first came out, it had WAY too much crit chance.

 

Releasing one/several weapons a week does seem a bit excessive. On paper it sounds great, and earlier on in Warframe's life it was great, but eventually you have to take the time to make something that stands out.

 

On a related note, I couldn't help but notice that after the AkMagnus error, DE has never included weapon stats in their videos.

[Magister_Zel]

tbh, DE never should have committed to a weapon a week, which is partly the reason why some weapons seems very similar to one another. also DE doesnt seem to spend enough time looking at the stats of a weapon before releasing them, mistakes in stats are too frequent. look at how marelok is stronger than grinlok in everyway (except accuracy), look at how akmagnus somehow got released doing double the damage per shot. look at how when strun wraith first came out, it had WAY too much crit chance.

I do have to say that i'm not cool with the release of weapons so often, i would like to see new elements like the corpus pet.

[Zareek]

Sometimes I use bows just because I like the feel of it. And they are some of the most neglected weapons in the game. With that being said, every weapon doesn't have to be equally good. Newer weapons that requires more farming, should be different and better in different areas. I think its perfectly fine.

[Noble_Cactus]

I see a lot of bows now after U12.

 

 

 

 

I thought the Phage/Penta/Drakgoon/Stugg were among the few that broke away from the norm, but for the most part were indeed getting what feels like "reskins", especially with the Castanas.

 

 

I agree with your general point of view, but the Castanas are one of the farthest weapons from being reskins. The only thing that comes close is the Stug, and you have no control over the detonation of the sludge balls.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[WARLOCKE]

No such thing as power creep in a progression based game. This is a progression based game. 

[Won_Doe]

No such thing as power creep in a progression based game. This is a progression based game. 

 

Yet somehow, the Soma completely out-classes the Supra, requires 1 less mastery rank, and isn't clantech.

 

AkMagnus is basically another AkLex, except superior in stats for the most part and is mastery rank 0.

 

The Stug is ridiculously strong, and is also a rank 0 wep.

 

Now we have the Boltor Prime which has stupidly high base damage and without a doubt puts even other prime weapons to shame.

 

 

I'm not really seeing the "progression" here. Just a bunch of imbalance. Not hard to decide on an effective weapon when the right choices are blatantly obvious. I should note that these weapons are somewhat recent too. Welcome to powercreep.

[Boondorl]

No such thing as power creep in a progression based game. This is a progression based game. 

 

I don't think you understand the concept of power creep. Perhaps someone should show you Latron Prime's old stats compared to the buffed one's, and how outrageously stupid of an idea it was. The fact that weapons that require less MR than Soma yet are better than it are coming out is a huge example of power creep.

[Thelonious]

Short answer: yes, because they built their monetization around the aquisition of gear (slots, potatoes, formas, tenno reinforcements)

 

Now in the last livestream, I've noticed they were trying to change that to a more "Valve-like" monetization: skins, and cosmetic customization in general.

Less Tenno reinforcements adding to the pile of mastery fodder weapons, and more plat-exclusive, non-power-creep-adding items.

 

It makes sense in the way that theorically, anyone can now aquire plat through Trading. Meaning that it is not necessary anymore to buy plat in order to get slots or potatoes now. Which, I say again, is what they based their monetization on.

 

Let's hope it's still possible at that point of the game development (many players love them Power Creep), and that it will suffice to keep the game alive.

 

For me, it's finally a fair reason to spend plat. Looking forward to see what this amazing art design team is capable of. 

Edited March 9, 2014 by Thelonious

[LazyKnight]

Now we have the Boltor Prime which has stupidly high base damage and without a doubt puts even other prime weapons to shame.

That not true because of how critical hits work on headshots. Soma and Synapse should always be able to out damage Botlor prime when the head is the target.  Latron prime is also able to easily crush things because of the critical hit modifier, and only bows can reliably do more damage. It is just more spikey DPS on Latron-prime than on other weapons and it can get strings of extreme overkill.

 

White hits on the head have a 2x damage modifier.

Yellow hits have a 4x damage modifier.

 

 

Yet somehow, the Soma completely out-classes the Supra, requires 1 less mastery rank, and isn't clantech.

That weapon has so many issues that it out-classes itself by its own numerous limitations. Supra is one of the most inefficient weapons in game because of its wind-up time, near zero accuracy, and the initial speed of 40 on its bullets. No matter how much they nerfed other weapons it will not change the fact that someone can kill faster with a Karak.

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Axterix13]

No such thing as power creep in a progression based game. This is a progression based game. 

Except it isn't.

 

There's no new tougher content.  In general, offense has been ramping up more and more, with the constant introduction of better weapons, but defense has stayed stagnant.  The game itself constantly encourages us to go do low level content, by putting alerts, infestations, invasions, and so on there.  Even new prime pieces... often found in part in T1 and T2 voids.  Weapons seems to no have logic in their mastery requirements.  Powers are trivial to max, can be easily fit into even a rank 0 frame thanks to auras, and can kill an entire room of stuff with ease.  And it isn't like I need to do T1 stuff to get what I need to do T2 stuff.

 

The end result is that people do the endless stuff, and then whine when obviously overpowered stuff gets nerfed.

 

So no, not progression.

 

That said, I'm not really sure if weapons are necessarily the problem.  I'd like to see them do a major balance pass on mods first, including reducing the effect of reactors/catalysts (and by doing so, allowing for lower drain on rank 0 mods).  But until then, they do need to quit introducing more powerful weapons.

[Ratiasu]

I like it. Need higher mastery lvl requirements, though.

[Zyrusticae]

Weapons do not all need to be equal.

But they DO need at least a reason to be used. 

 

Let's be completely honest here, there is ZERO reason to use a Braton over a Soma. It is simply outclassed in every respect. Some people seem to think that's okay simply because the Soma is higher mastery rank but I think that's BS. When it comes right down to it, if you have major balance issues between your weapons, you are WASTING DEV TIME on lower grade weapons that will never, ever be used after they are ranked up once and once only. Think about how many nifty weapon models there are in this game... and then think about the fact that about 10% of the weapons in the game completely outclass everything else, to the point where you are literally handicapping yourself by using an inferior (but oftentimes better-looking) weapon. That's a lot of artist and programmer developer work wasted on worthless weapons. 

 

They need to at least put forth a decent effort towards balancing weapons such that they are within the same ballpark as opposed to being in completely different fields. When you have weapons running 4k DPS post-mods next to weapons that run 33k DPS post-mods you KNOW you're doing something very, very wrong. 

[TheThreadWeaver]

Allow me to ask you a question:

 

Do you think the player base would take interest in / keep new weapons that are weaker than the ones they already possess?

[Ratiasu]

But they DO need at least a reason to be used. 

 

Let's be completely honest here, there is ZERO reason to use a Braton over a Soma. It is simply outclassed in every respect. Some people seem to think that's okay simply because the Soma is higher mastery rank but I think that's BS. When it comes right down to it, if you have major balance issues between your weapons, you are WASTING DEV TIME on lower grade weapons that will never, ever be used after they are ranked up once and once only. Think about how many nifty weapon models there are in this game... and then think about the fact that about 10% of the weapons in the game completely outclass everything else, to the point where you are literally handicapping yourself by using an inferior (but oftentimes better-looking) weapon. That's a lot of artist and programmer developer work wasted on worthless weapons. 

 

They need to at least put forth a decent effort towards balancing weapons such that they are within the same ballpark as opposed to being in completely different fields. When you have weapons running 4k DPS post-mods next to weapons that run 33k DPS post-mods you KNOW you're doing something very, very wrong. 

Weapons are tiered. Graduate to Mastery 6 and indeed, why would you go back and use a Mastery 2 weapon? I don't mind. Working as intended imho. 

[neKroMancer]

This is indeed an old issue of weapon balancing. Earlier in the game's life, DE seemed to be intended to make every weapon viable through the entire game - Braton can kill Pluto mob as good as others. However, mastery rank requirement did change the philosophy into a controlled power progression rather than the old philosophy. I'm ok with the concept.

That said, some weapons are indeed outclassed by lower tier /non clantech weapons (Supra Vs Soma is a good example) and that is simply against the implementation of rank-based controlled power progression. Why should you get Supra when Soma can perform better in all aspects? And the growing number of weapons in the game, ever-increasing mastery rank? That will surely lead to long term powercreep which is undesirable in this game since DE use weapons as the game's progression and monetization - wasted resources for forgettable reskin/restat weapons.

I don't really mind if DE will decide to release one weapon per month if it's going to be more unique like Phage or Castana. Balancing the game is as important as releasing new content. Test play these things first and see if they are suitable for the rank/resource requirement and compare them to other weapons in similar rank.

[11.11.11]

Good to see this being discussed again. Such a long standing point of contention and one DE still hasn't made up their minds on.

 

 

Instead of an opinon, let me first share a question that I formed after reading this thread.

 

 

"Why have forma or mods. If certain weapons will always be more powerful?"

 

If I can't make a Mk-1 braton as powerful as a fully tricked out boltor prime. Why is the mod system in the game? Why doesn't every weapon come with fixed stats. If we go with the idea of having tiered weapons (and frames) - then it stifles the variety of options available. You need 2-3 generic, boring low level assault rifles so that people can rank up and get access to the one uber assault rifle to rule them all. Any unique traits, or appealing visuals of those 3 lower teir weapons are wasted - they may as well all look and function precisely the same, because as soon as you have the high teir option - it would be ineffective to use the lower. And Lotus forbid that you don't like the way the uber rifle works or looks.

 

They're using a system that guarantee's there will always be boring weapons - in the name of a token sense of progression. The way I see it, mods and the weapons mod capacity, should be all the form of progression we need. As someone else stated, the game is hardly progression centric. You shoot a ton of crap till it spawns in such great numbers with such great health and armor - that you have to run for the door. (Which segways nicely into the old concept of having our weapons and frames level or scale during missions, but thats another topic entirely.) 

Edited March 11, 2014 by 11.11.11