What A "prime" Should Be.

[Legion-Shields]

Suggestion: make the most used alt helmet stats for the normal warframes automatically inherent in the prime warframes, so that we don't have to choose between looking fancy and actually getting S#&$ done, like they did with rhino prime.

a pretty neat idea.

[Seraiya.Gier]

Suggestion: make the most used alt helmet stats for the normal warframes automatically inherent in the prime warframes, so that we don't have to choose between looking fancy and actually getting S#&$ done, like they did with rhino prime.

That is also nice.

[Kraosdada]

A stronger Prime frame does not necessarily mean an OP frame, just a lil better in some physical aspect, like a 10-20% more health, better shield regen, or speed.

making them stronger does not mean make them op, just better

[Grissozz]

I'd have to disagree to a large degree with OP here.

Primes where to be given a advantage in the voids. U know the free 50 energy?????

Giving primes other base stats would simply be to much.

Having a speed stat increased from 0.8 to lets say 1.0 is a 25% increase.

Having an innate 25% power strenght on lets say, nova prime would be broken.

I'd say ...... remove the speed buff from rhino prime. like ASAP.

[Seraiya.Gier]

A stronger Prime frame does not necessarily mean an OP frame, just a lil better in some physical aspect, like a 10-20% more health, better shield regen, or speed.

making them stronger does not mean make them op, just better

You, I like you. You understand.

[Seraiya.Gier]

I'd have to disagree to a large degree with OP here.

Primes where to be given a advantage in the voids. U know the free 50 energy?????

Giving primes other base stats would simply be to much.

Having a speed stat increased from 0.8 to lets say 1.0 is a 25% increase.

Having an innate 25% power strenght on lets say, nova prime would be broken.

I'd say ...... remove the speed buff from rhino prime. like ASAP.

What is the point of Orokin Enhanced if it enhances nothing? The primes should outclass their other version. Whether it's dampening or outright removing their only downside. Or giving them a small stat boost. That void energy bit is useless and makes the whole "Enhanced" aspect of it silly. As for your Nova Prime bit, like I mentioned; it'd be more of removing or dampening a downside to the frame. In Nova's case, her low shields. (The only downside I see to her, as she's squishy). Or some other effect. A prime should be better, not the same with an aesthetic change or a polarity swap/addition. Shiny gold trim makes you enhanced? My shiny gold trim, it shall make me grossly incandescent. I shall become my own sun. Please excuse me. *Praises the sun before his ship flies into it*

[Sev7n]

I agree prime frames should be stronger versions of the originals but if they were any stronger than they are now to their originals this game would start complaining about excal prime again since he's unavailable and would be better than the normal excal in game

 

But if most of the community ever grows up I'd like to see prime frames have a decent upgrade from the original versions 

[Seraiya.Gier]

I agree prime frames should be stronger versions of the originals but if they were any stronger than they are now to their originals this game would start complaining about excal prime again since he's unavailable and would be better than the normal excal in game

 

But if most of the community ever grows up I'd like to see prime frames have a decent upgrade from the original versions 

Or they could just leave him alone and touch the other ones so nobody cries. Orokin Enhancements should be just that, friggin enhancements! Good to see another person who agrees on that point.

[Grissozz]

Why u so keen on power creep anyway. This wil only result in pay to win IMO. i'm already having a hard time with prime parts being tradeable now.

U really want to see MR 1,2,3 buying these new enhanced primes and still not being able to handle themselves in high lvl content?

No lvl of powercreep can compensate 4 poor skill. Dumb players always going to be dumb

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

Here's why people would say this is power creep as it applies to Warframe.

 

Say you start giving Prime frames improvements which make them by default superior to the non-Prime counterparts. Maybe some will have more health, some will do more damage on their abilities, others will have cheaper abilities. Sure, whatever.

 

Then DE has to start releasing new, non-Prime frames. However, these brand new frames are obvious not Prime variants, but they are being released into the game where a lot of Prime frames have been longstanding and are widely used. Therefore, these Prime variants have become the standard for a lot of people, and maybe have even had the game scaled to account for them. In order for the brand new frame to feel competitive, it would probably be released more powerful than your standard non-Prime variant, maybe even as powerful as a normal Prime variant, because DE balances so well.

 

Eventually this gets its own Prime Variant which is even more powerful, and you have new frames being released against what once an already stronger frame, and so on. This is power creep. These things were all initially intended to all be as "useful" or "strong" when compared to one another, but instead everything becomes more powerful with the new stuff, so that what was supposed to be equal is now getting phased out.

 

There's a difference between a new tier of gear being released in an MMORPG and power creep. A new tier is supposed to, well, be a new tier, and more powerful. Say you have tier X of gear requiring level 60, and a new tier Y of gear requiring level 65 is released, or tier Y is still level 60 but requires tier X to make. That's all good. That is not power creep. A better example of power creep and things being rendered obsolete in an MMORPG would be a game where initially, you have a set of dungeons at the level cap that all provide equipment with relatively equal stats, but with variations to suit your playstyle. There's a set tier there with multiple options. But after update X, the level cap stays the same, but there is a new dungeon with new gear that isn't any harder to get, but is more powerful than all of the old gear in every way and doesn't require you to have the old gear to get it. Suddenly, everything that used to be top tier is completely obsoleted despite being in the same tier as the new stuff, to the point that it isn't even necessary for progression.

 

As an example of an MMO that suffered greatly from this, look at TERA. A new set of gear was released that completely outclassed all the old gear and was easily obtainable, even easier to obtain than the old "best" gear. It literally rendered a ton of end game dungeons obsolete and the devs even went so far as to remove the dungeons from the game because there's was no longer any worth in having it for the majority of the players and just having it was presumably an unnecessary burden on the servers. Most newer players never even ran that old content because there was no need to.

 

In Warframe terms again, this would be like people no longer bothering to make the non-Prime variants because the Prime variants exist. Right now, Prime variants are simply sparkly alternatives, so people do not feel bad about investing in the normal version. This is already sort an issue with weapons, and to be frank would probably be a much bigger issue if it weren't for the whole mastery fodder thing. It eventually requires large scale rebalancing and becomes a nightmare with QQ as far as the eye can see as poor balance decisions are inevitably made or good ones are made but drastically nerf something that was obviously out of line and thus people enjoyed being OP with.

 

Whether or not this is what really would happen, who knows. I honestly don't trust DE's balancing team to handle it that well right now, though, what with how often they screw up a lot of balance related stuff.

[Seraiya.Gier]

Why u so keen on power creep anyway. This wil only result in pay to win IMO. i'm already having a hard time with prime parts being tradeable now.

U really want to see MR 1,2,3 buying these new enhanced primes and still not being able to handle themselves in high lvl content?

No lvl of powercreep can compensate 4 poor skill. Dumb players always going to be dumb

I believe the term is being misused now that I have a better understanding of it. In a game where there is a great deal of equipment, you would rather they all be the same in stats and damage with only aesthetic and functionality differences? With no items being an improvement over the other, it ends up being personal choice of what to choose, instead of choosing what's the best tool for the job. Look at a standard MMORPG title, that follows what you call "power creep". Where new gear is introduced every now and then that outclasses and makes those that came before it obsolete. This game is the same in that context. We get new gear to get better gear to get even better gear.

 

It's a method of advancement. It's an endless cycle. That's how it will always be. New gear will always outclass something that came out at the start. However, when one piece of gear outclasses every single item, than that is a problem. Such as the Acrid before Damage 2.0. As Acrid could destroy everything when properly modded. It was hands down the best weapon and nothing could compare. That is what I would consider a "power creep". We don't have that now. We just have weapons that come out that are better than older ones, but are not end all be all.

 

As for the pay to win bit, what are you winning in a game that has nothing to win at? Let's say you bought a frame, you skipped having to farm him(Which before they changed how blueprint parts dropped was understandable), you simply skipped having to kill the same boss several times. Now, if we had let's say... Massive tiered missions that you needed a certain skill/gear cap/level to get into and complete. Then yes, that would be pay 2 win. But we don't have that. Instead, you pay to not bother with that at all. For convenience. Want to farm a T3 def 40 times for your item? You go right ahead, after 10 and my item doesn't drop, I'm buying the thing.

 

Skill has nothing to do with gear and vice versa. Hell, there's no real skill even required for this game as it is. (Unless you're playing by yourself without relying on people to save you for your shortcomings.)

[Seraiya.Gier]

-snip-

You, I like you. My part on what you said:

 

As far as mastery goes, you can consider all non prime/wraith/vandal all mastery fodder as it currently stands. When a new non prime frame is released, it's like we just discovered it/unearthed it. This gives you a feel for the frame, to see if you like it and its abilities. Then when the prime comes out, you decide whether or not based upon playing the non prime version of it if it is worth farming for/buying the parts to. That's how I see it. That way, what you mentioned above does not happen.  They would have to do away with mastery as a whole so everyone can just roll around with whatever rocked their boat. The basic premise is to make an older version obsolete of the same gear type. A basic upgrade to said item you loved ever so much.

 

As you mentioned with Tiers, I like to imagine the new weapons that are released that become superior to the other ones as a different tier each time. Sometimes they go back a tier in terms of usefulness, sometimes they go above.  That mention of TERA makes me remember the horror it was, mostly to me when it became garbage the moment it went FTP.

[PoorCensored]

You, I like you. My part on what you said:

 

As far as mastery goes, you can consider all non prime/wraith/vandal all mastery fodder as it currently stands. When a new non prime frame is released, it's like we just discovered it/unearthed it. This gives you a feel for the frame, to see if you like it and its abilities. Then when the prime comes out, you decide whether or not based upon playing the non prime version of it if it is worth farming for/buying the parts to. That's how I see it. That way, what you mentioned above does not happen.  They would have to do away with mastery as a whole so everyone can just roll around with whatever rocked their boat. The basic premise is to make an older version obsolete of the same gear type. A basic upgrade to said item you loved ever so much.

 

As you mentioned with Tiers, I like to imagine the new weapons that are released that become superior to the other ones as a different tier each time. Sometimes they go back a tier in terms of usefulness, sometimes they go above.  That mention of TERA makes me remember the horror it was, mostly to me when it became garbage the moment it went FTP.

 

I do not want to see hugely stratified tiers of weaponry. If anything, I'd like things to move in the other direction, preferably where everything is useful to a play style. Not more powerful - different. Making primes/wraiths/vandals the ultimate weapons above others is the wrong way to move, and tilts the playing field hard(er) against new players, particularly since (to my knowledge) wraiths and vandals can't be obtained later.

[PoorCensored]

Or they could just leave him alone and touch the other ones so nobody cries. Orokin Enhancements should be just that, friggin enhancements! Good to see another person who agrees on that point.

 

Then you'll have founders upset about how Excalibur Prime is a waste, and not use him; and, as all the Primes except Excalibur are buffed, Warframe's signature warframe fades even further from the light and is seen even less, as to run him, you'd have to run a non-buffed version of him.

[Seraiya.Gier]

I do not want to see hugely stratified tiers of weaponry. If anything, I'd like things to move in the other direction, preferably where everything is useful to a play style. Not more powerful - different. Making primes/wraiths/vandals the ultimate weapons above others is the wrong way to move, and tilts the playing field hard(er) against new players, particularly since (to my knowledge) wraiths and vandals can't be obtained later.

That's making everything the same. There's always new weapons coming out, and those will always be of use. Instead of attempting to make gear go back to be the same as let's say a Braton or a Burston. As it is, a good chunk weapons cater to specific play styles(I like explosions. So I used Ogris a lot until Penta came out and outshined it. Especially since I would suicide myself less as my rockets weren't being shot.)  and are still viable. Look at the bows, Dread is still pretty boss and that came out ages ago.(The only bow I liked) whereas the new bow (Cernos) was kinda meh in comparison to me. Totally different stats as one was slash and the other was impact.

 

It's better to move forwards and grow more powerful with new technologies(Weapons/frames) not go backwards. Otherwise, there's no incentive on getting it aside from mastery and maybe liking its appearance. When you get a new weapon, in the back of your head it's always going to be I hope this is awesome, and fares well against all I stand against. Then you realize it was no different than the last thing you leveled. You want to grow in power, not get weaker. Your enemies grow stronger, why shouldn't you!?

Edited March 10, 2014 by Reokudo

[Seraiya.Gier]

Then you'll have founders upset about how Excalibur Prime is a waste, and not use him; and, as all the Primes except Excalibur are buffed, Warframe's signature warframe fades even further from the light and is seen even less, as to run him, you'd have to run a non-buffed version of him.

True enough, I don't even use him anyway. You can't please everyone. Has to be one or the other.  There will always be someone who cries and complains. Such is life.

[Kaotyke]

The Primes should have an advantage from the non-primes, but they should be passive and not game-breaking, Rhino Prime having normal (1.0) Sprint speed is not something to fuss over IMO, Excal Prime has higher Shield Recharge than normal Excal, nothing big, must be 10%.

 

Ember Prime should have a Resistance to fire damage 35% (wont put immunity because Nalpans, if she is immune to their attacks it will be OP) and take no damage from fire hazards or catch on fire for that matter.

 

Frost Prime should have his shields take no impact from ice levels and not be slowed by cold proc/floors.

 

Mag Prime should be have immunity from disruption (only Ancient Disrupters, Mag Leaders and 1 of the Hyenas have disruption

ability/aura)

 

Edit: "Heyna" .... man I need to type slower, corrected.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Kao-Snake

[Amistyrja]

I have all the frames except for Rhino Prime. Nope, I don't see any need for Prime Warframes to be statistically different from their normal counterparts. Mild passives are OK as a reward for getting the Prime, but what we don't need is for every single damn Warframe in every single session to be decked out in Orokin gold swag

[PoorCensored]

That's making everything the same. There's always new weapons coming out, and those will always be of use. Instead of attempting to make gear go back to be the same as let's say a Braton or a Burston. As it is, a good chunk weapons cater to specific play styles(I like explosions. So I used Ogris a lot until Penta came out and outshined it. Especially since I would suicide myself less as my rockets weren't being shot.)  and are still viable. Look at the bows, Dread is still pretty boss and that came out ages ago.(The only bow I liked) whereas the new bow (Cernos) was kinda meh in comparison to me. Totally different stats as one was slash and the other was impact.

 

It's better to move forwards and grow more powerful with new technologies(Weapons/frames) not go backwards. Otherwise, there's no incentive on getting it aside from mastery and maybe liking its appearance. When you get a new weapon, in the back of your head it's always going to be I hope this is awesome, and fares well against all I stand against. Then you realize it was no different than the last thing you leveled. You want to grow in power, not get weaker. Your enemies grow stronger, why shouldn't you!?

 

Not everything has to be the same to not have everything be a constant escalation in power. Right off the bat, you can have three bows based on the primary physical damage types: 1 slashing, 1 piercine, 1 impact - and that's not including how different ways you could implement different elemental damages. You can do a similar thing with sniper rifles, shotguns, etc. Also, not everything is the same because bows play way differently than assault rifles.

 

Also, not everyone want everything to be a constant uphill gain of power. I want to have a broad mastery of a bunch of ways to kill people, not one single way that kill that makes everything else I could do useless. One path leads to an interesting, skill based challenge. The other leads to a endless treadmill.

 

True enough, I don't even use him anyway. You can't please everyone. Has to be one or the other.  There will always be someone who cries and complains. Such is life.

 

True, but, in general, all other things being equal, making the least number of people cry is generally a good thing. In general. All other things equal.

Edited March 10, 2014 by PoorCensored

[Oriviagene]

Unless primes trading is disabled...NO

[SolidSp33d]

Luckily I quit GW2 when I was in the 40's. That game was just... Bland. But that's a story for another day.

 

lol I agree with that. I pushed to lvl 80 for the hopes of something great on the horizon...noooope.

Edited March 10, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[SonicDoragon]

Honestly after reading the posts on power creep on this and many others, I have noticed one thing no one seems to take into account (that I've seen so far). The future. It's not that I'm saying power creep in it's true definition is good, but rather we've no idea what mastery rank means when it comes to tiers in gear. Under that every one uses the term in our current state in Warframe rather then just letting (or demanding) the dev's put emphasis on mastery rank meaning something. That way we have a defined tier for gear and weather it fits the term for power creep or not.

 

To say for example the soma is "OP" could be, or even is, far fetched. I think it could do with another mastery rank nerf (a.k.a. raising the rank required to 7 or 8). Taking the future into account if a rank 6 weapon is considered "OP" by the games current standards, heaven forbid we find out what a rank 15 weapon does let alone the eventual possibility of a rank 25 or even much further in the future of a rank 30. How many people genuinely think some one who's stayed with the game for years to the point rank 30 is possible for everyone, with no need for exclusive weapons/ gear, that a rank 30 weapon should be on par with a rank 0? Basically saying a "skilled" player is exactly the same as a newbie who popped into the game fresh? What would be the point of even getting to such a rank if it's meaningless? 

 

Hek we need mastery to set the bar on frames as well. Unless it was changed(I honestly don't know since being rank 15 I can't just see in-game), rhino is still the only one to even have a rank beyond 0 in terms of frames. With (for example) all the nova haters out and demanding a nerf why aren't "High tier" frames requiring a mastery? maybe if nova demanded a rank of 10 people wouldn't be so demanding on "nerf the god frame". As is, newbie player who has a friend can be a "god" and get nova before passing Mercury. Hek you can slowly work your way straight to Europa and just get lucky with the team you get.

 

We need Mastery rank to mean something. Have it set a bar that we can actually gauge if a new weapon fits in the realm of power creep or is just a tier in the arsenal we have, can't have yet, and will have down the road.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

As for going on topic, I honestly thought till a month or so ago prime frames did have something slightly better in terms of stats aside the stupid void-only free energy from doom balls that only work once. I was surprised, what, only exca and now rhino prime have one stat that's slightly better then it's normal counter-part. I'm still irked ember prime is cheated out of an extra polarity, heck she's just ember with different polarity's and barely visible gold trim (cept the phoenix head). I'm a-ok with all primes getting one minor stat boost that improves a weakness. Hell so long as founders are compensated (something small, like founder exclusive skins for all frames past, present, and future. That founders vote on for each frame that way all frames stay unique, but keep that founder status look as an example), I'm ok with exca prime getting released to everyone. Toss in skana and lato prime too, they're mastery fodder.

 

If the orokin couldn't perfect a frame or weapon beyond the standard, why even bother from a lore stand point? Sounds like a waste of resources when your concern is supposedly balance in the system. Basically, yes to small buffs on prime/vandal/ wrath items compared to the counterpart.

[Shackram]

Right OP, because what the game needs is MORE power creep.

[Cwierz]

Haha!

No.

This is a dumb idea.